According to Lothar Kilian and A. Hausler: no immigrants for the dispersion of I.E.

[Goga]

Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer's permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Source http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~staplessurname/before_surnames.htm

During the Last Glacial Maximum, R1b produced finely knapped stone 'leaf points' which define the <a href="http://www.beloit.edu/~museum/logan/paleoexhibit/solutrian.htm">Solutrean culture</a> and were culturally distinct from the people in other European Ice Age refuges who are described more generally as Epi-Gravettian. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, pp 249-50.
The mates for R1b, about the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, were mtDNA haplogroups H and V. (Haplogroup V was born in the Basque area of the Pyrenees shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, p 251.)

R1b Subclade Analysis by Ken Nordtvedt

Source: Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b

http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Whitney_Family_DNA_Project/Haplogroup_R1b

 

[Taranis]

You're talking about very, very young R1b subclades. And I have about the 'native' European R1b in Britain from the ice age times!

Sorry, just NO. For your information, all the ancient R1b subclades are practically absent in Western Europe. R1b-V88 is in the Near East and Sub-Saharan Africa, R1b-M73 is in Central Asia, and all the ancient varieties of R1b-M269 (those that are negative of L23 and L11) and are found in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Uralic-Caspian region, and not in (Western) Europe.

 

[Goga]

Sorry, just NO. For your information, all the ancient R1b subclades are practically absent in Western Europe. R1b-V88 is in the Near East and Sub-Saharan Africa, R1b-M73 is in Central Asia, and all the ancient varieties of R1b-M269 (those that are negative of L23 and L11) and are found in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Uralic-Caspian region, and not in (Western) Europe.

About R1b

"This subgroup probably originated in Central Asia/South Central Siberia and appears to have entered prehistoric Europe mainly from the area of modern Iran or Central Asia (Kazakhstan) via the coasts of the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea. It is believed by some to have been widespread in Europe before the last Ice Age, and associated with the Aurignacian culture (32,000-21,000 BC) of the Cro-Magnon people, the first modern humans to enter Europe.

The Cro-Magnons were the first documented human artists, making sophisticated cave paintings. Famous sites include Lascaux in France, Cueva de las Monedas in Spain and Valley of Foz Côa in Portugal (the largest open-air site in Europe).

When the ice age intensified and the continent became increasingly uninhabitable, the genetic diversity narrowed through founder effects and population bottlenecks, as the population became limited to a few coastal refugia in Southern Europe and Asia Minor.

The present-day R1b population is believed to be descended from a refuge in the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal), where the R1b1c haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions of the ice age eased in about 12,000 before the present (bp), descendants of this group migrated and eventually re-colonized all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps."

http://www.flemishdna.com/Project/Flemish_Male_Ancestry.html

 

[razor]

The debate between proponents of various time frames for the R1b movement into Europe rages on... Nothing is definitively settled. The view of a pre-glacial presence seemed acceptable. Then new "studies" emerged which argued for a much later arrival (nor was there agreement as to the route). Then they started to haggle about calculation methods for TMRCA. Meantime the key person on this website has comprehensively argued for R1b as the key IEuropeanizing factor in Western Europe (and possibly for the IE languages themselves). But this last contention (i.e. R1b as the original IE haplogroup) falls flat on archaeological as well as linguistic grounds. aDNA might be of help. But we don't have it yet. So there we are =)))

 

[Alan]

In a global-plot they don't fall out of Europe, that's absolutely sure. What you see in most especific plots is a representation of isolation with many common markers, that's why they are separated.

Thats actually what I meant.

 

[Taranis]

The debate between proponents of various time frames for the R1b movement into Europe rages on... Nothing is definitively settled. The view of a pre-glacial presence seemed acceptable. Then new "studies" emerged which argued for a much later arrival (nor was there agreement as to the route). Then they started to haggle about calculation methods for TMRCA. Meantime the key person on this website has comprehensively argued for R1b as the key IEuropeanizing factor in Western Europe (and possibly for the IE languages themselves). But this last contention (i.e. R1b as the original IE haplogroup) falls flat on archaeological as well as linguistic grounds. aDNA might be of help. But we don't have it yet. So there we are =)))

I would argue the following: what the newer studies do show beyond any question, regardless of wether R1b entered Western Europe in the Neolithic, Chalcolithic or the Bronze, and regardless of wether it's tied with speakers of Indo-European languages or not, is the approximate direction by which R1b spread.

 

[razor]

east to west?

 

[rms2]

. . . But this last contention (i.e. R1b as the original IE haplogroup) falls flat on archaeological as well as linguistic grounds. aDNA might be of help. But we don't have it yet. So there we are =)))

Classic bald assertion. Produce the R1b-flattening archaeological and linguistic grounds. The "linguistic grounds" assertion is especially interesting, given the fact that R1b is the most common y haplogroup in Europe.

 

[rms2]

About R1b

"This subgroup probably originated in Central Asia/South Central Siberia and appears to have entered prehistoric Europe mainly from the area of modern Iran or Central Asia (Kazakhstan) via the coasts of the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea. It is believed by some to have been widespread in Europe before the last Ice Age, and associated with the Aurignacian culture (32,000-21,000 BC) of the Cro-Magnon people, the first modern humans to enter Europe.

The Cro-Magnons were the first documented human artists, making sophisticated cave paintings. Famous sites include Lascaux in France, Cueva de las Monedas in Spain and Valley of Foz Côa in Portugal (the largest open-air site in Europe).

When the ice age intensified and the continent became increasingly uninhabitable, the genetic diversity narrowed through founder effects and population bottlenecks, as the population became limited to a few coastal refugia in Southern Europe and Asia Minor.

The present-day R1b population is believed to be descended from a refuge in the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal), where the R1b1c haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions of the ice age eased in about 12,000 before the present (bp), descendants of this group migrated and eventually re-colonized all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps."

http://www.flemishdna.com/Project/Flemish_Male_Ancestry.html

Man, that is some dated material! Note that what you quoted refers to "R1b1c".

The "R1b-in-the-Ice Age-Iberian Refuge" thing is pretty much dead.

Here is some much more current information from the ISOGG web site (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html):

Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.

• Haplogroup R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of haplogroup R1 are R1a and R1b.
  • R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. Haplogroup R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
  • R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.
    • Paragroup R1b1* and haplogroup R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
      • Haplogroup R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia.
        • Haplogroup R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe.
        • Haplogroup R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1-L11/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to haplogroups R1b1a2a1a1a-S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a1b-P312/S116.

 

[rms2]

?

Some subclades of hg. E and J1 belong to the Semitic languages!

There's is MUCH more J2 in the Caucasus than in the Mesopotamia. J2 is from the north and came down to the Mesopotamia! Before the Arabs the Mesopotamia was 'Aryanized'.

Chechens = 56.5 % of J2
Ingush = 88 % of J2
etc.

Also Hurrians and later early Indo-Europeans or maybe they were related to the Hurrians too, like Kassites, Mittani, Guti and later Iranic folks like the Medes, Parthians, Persians conquered the Mesopotamia many times.

The maps you posted don't even show Mesopotamia. The one I posted does.

The two, relatively small ethnic groups you named, the Ingush and the Chechens, speak languages belonging to the Northeast Caucasian language family, which is NOT Indo-European.

I think it far more likely that J2 came from the south and spread into the Caucasus than the other way around.

 

[razor]

The linguistic community has not accepted the Gamkrelidze-Ivanov thesis that PIE was born in Anatolia, and the notion that the allegedly R1b Maikop culture brought this speech to the steppes falls flat, since Yamna does not derive from Maikop.

 

[Goga]

The maps you posted don't even show Mesopotamia. The one I posted does.

The two, relatively small ethnic groups you named, the Ingush and the Chechens, speak languages belonging to the Northeast Caucasian language family, which is NOT Indo-European.

I think it far more likely that J2 came from the south and spread into the Caucasus than the other way around.

???

I'm shocked and appalled!

You make M269 native to West Asia and Indo-European, while you link J2 to Arabistan and make it Semitic, with all due respect but that's very crazy!

Marsh Arabs in South Iraq have 81% J1 , while only 3.5% of J2 !!! If J2 is Semitic than I'm a hobbit from the lord of the rings, lol!

J2a distribution correspondents very well with Indo-Europeans (Iranic tribes = Aryans)! Where you see very much J2a is where the Hurrians "Aryanised" the previous Mesopotamian population, the place of the ancient Media (Median Empire) and later Parthian and Persian empires!

Inside this Achaemenid Empire you will find the majority of J2! J2 is 100% Hurro-Iranic (Aryan) and therefore Indo-European (folks between India and Europe!). I mean if there is only one haplogroup that's only Indo-European thna it must be J2! The most gifted haplogorup, haplogroup of creation, innovation and civilization and the haplogorup of many great empires.

Did you notice the greatest civilizations in Europe had much of J2a. Without J2a Romans and Greeks would never have such a great empires!

 

[Goga]

Btw, hg. J2 evolved from hg. J* and hg. J* from hg. IJ somewhere between the Caucasus and Kurdistan (West Asian)! And R* is from Central Asia or something!

 

[Alan]

and the notion that the allegedly R1b Maikop culture brought this speech to the steppes falls flat, since Yamna does not derive from Maikop.

Question, how do you come to the conclusion Yamna has not been influenced by Maikop?

 

[razor]

That's not what I said. I think a case (not incontrovertible but possible) can be made for such influence in a couple of areas. But the cultures as a whole are quite distinct, and there is no evidence (except for a single site) that Maikop moved into the steppes. We do have good evidence that Maikop, the Crimea, Lower Mykhajlivka (and its Usatov offshoot) were definitely related cultures. The problem here is that Yamna swamped Usatov. So if R1a and R1b are IE the case for R1a as original and R1b as assimilated fellow traveller is very strong (exactly the reverse of Maciamo's preferred theory). Usatov on the other hand also influenced Trypilia (and you may remember it is the Dnister route [Usatov ->Trypilia and then Globular Amphorae and Corded Ware] that Anthony theorized as the possible pre-ptoto-Germanic route to the West. But a lot of work still needs to be done here. Gimbutas' notion that Lower Mykhajlivka influenced Globular Amphorae, and the relationship between GA and the Beaker folk needs to be more adequately investigated.