Age and TMRCA of Jewish lineages by haplogroup

Let me explain this on an elementary level. I don't know what Jacob's yDna was, and neither does anyone else. That's why you couldn't provide an answer to my question. What we can do is use "reasoned" speculation based on available data to arrive at a list of the probable yDna of the Israelites. Ancient dna will tell us more, although still not Jacob's ydna.

This seems to be a foreign concept to you. If you can't engage in such conversations through lack of the requisite knowledge or logic, then don't comment.
 
Your post was removed as off topic and irrelevant, so you post it again? You've just earned yourself another infraction for resisting moderation.

Do you have a problem understanding the English language or with observing rules? Or do you get points at Stormfront for this kind of nonsense?
 
Rethel, we doubt that Jacob even existed, so you cannot build your argument on an unproven statement.
 
Ashkenazi I1 seems to have a tmrca with its closest cousins about 1350 ybp (my Y DNA).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/ (the Polish and Romanian branches are actually Ashkenazi)

There are two questions though - why are there so few Ashkenazi Y DNA I1s if the conversion is so old, and secondly, how did it happen in the first place if the closest branch (by far, the next closest branches have a tmrca 3000ybp) is... Norwegian? The tmrca places it firmly before the Viking Age...
 
Tomenable said:
Are you familiar with this website Maciamo?:

https://jewishdna.net/
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It's clear evidence that Ashkenazim actually originate in the Northern Fertile crescent (or took a lot of conversions there), as compared to Sephardim and the rest.

This to me explains Ashkenazi red hair and paleness. No admixture in Europe can explain the very high amounts of red hair among Ashkenazim (nobody is claiming admix. with Celts, and even so, this admix would have to be pretty heavy to make a big difference). I think it's worth remembering that Turkey once had a lot more people with red and even blonde hair (check Roman sources).

This isn't to say Ashkenazim didn't convert lots of Mediterranean Europeans - this is evident from PCA plots - but from the Rhineland onwards, Ashkenazim seem to have pretty much kept to themselves. What is interesting is the high IBD sharing with Eastern Europeans - is that from Jews converting out, or Eastern Europeans converting in? You would imagine the latter, yet this is well after the Mishnah (very last centuries of the Roman Empire), where Jewish matrilineality laws were truly codified. Based on that, I think it's hard to truly believe Jewish men would take non-Jewish women. Are there reports of widespread Medieval Jewish conversions like in the Roman Empire?

Anyhow, this whole topic is extremely interesting to me.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
Anyhow, this whole topic is extremely interesting to me.
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How about Ashkenazi Jewish haplogroup I2a-A2512>A10959>Y23115? It is thought to have had an MRCA 1,800 years ago. The Jews are in its subbranches, whose MRCA is thought to have been 1,000 years ago.

The only other people so far in A2512>A10959 are Greeks. There is another main branch of A2512, but it has subbranches with Greek, Chuvash and Spanish/Latin Americans with Greek roots.

The Greeks and Jews are thought to have split off a long time ago. It's very interesting that they're the only people in one of the two main A2512 branches.
 
In that tree of J1 haplogroup (http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree) there are 10 branches characteristic of Yehudim (Jews). Most of them have relatively young TMRCA, except ZS222 which is ancestor of Z18271.

I think that J1-P58-Y3081-Y3088 (Z18271) is the haplogroup of biblical Jacob because it expanded quite rapidly about 2000-1000 BCE. It looks possible that straight male lineages of other Abraham's descendants and close relatives did not survive to modern times. At YFull tree there are now 8 branches of Y3088 (six of them have only one sample at the tree). There are 31 samples of Y3088 on YFull tree now. 13 of them belong to subbranch Y5399 which has TMRCA estimated by YFull as just 1000 ybp. 8 belong to subbranch Y31161 with TMRCA about 1650 ybp (which may be close to true age of that branch because it has 3 SNPs which are not shared by Y5399 branch). Age estimated by YFull may be about 25% larger than the estimation. About 1800 ybp there might be only one or two people with Y5400 haplogroup who have descendants in straight male lineage at YFull tree. Y31161 and Y5399 share 13 SNPs (quite long bottleneck, it appears to be about 1300 - 2000 years), I think that Y5400 (aka S12192) may be the haplogroup of Zadok and its TMRCA may be more than 50% (about 75%) larger than YFull estimation.

Another candidate for Jacob's haplogroup is FGC8712 (its subclade ZS2121). It has Jewish branch ZS2102 which has relatively young TRMCA (1450 ybp according to YFull). FGC8712 has large (but bottlenecked - 13 SNPs) subclade L859 which appears to be the haplogroup of Muhammad, it may be a candidate for Ishmael's haplogroup. But it looks much more probable that Z18271 is main haplogroup of ancient Israelites and Ishmael was also Z18271 or at least ZS241.

At YFull tree I found 10 samples of J1 from Palestine, but anyone of them belonged to Y3088 or even Y3081 (ZS241).
 
Angela said:
Very helpful to have them all laid out in this way.

By studying whole genomes, scientists came up with a date around 1200 AD, which nicely coincides with the brutal slaughter of the Jewish population of the Rhineland.

This is Shai Carmi's 2014 study.
http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

Some analysts in the pop gen world have quibbled with his mutation rate, and the generation age, and using adjusted figures come up with a date of about 900-1150 years ago. That would date the bottleneck to the original settlement in the Rhineland.
https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/ashkenazi-ancestry-revisited/

The total number of ancestors would grow, in the second case, from 350 to 300-500. Of course, that's not total number of people who survived, but total number who passed on their genes.
https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/ashkenazi-ancestry-revisited/

As for the R1a lineage, 800 BC is when the Assyrian Empire conquered Israel and reached its broadest extent.*

The V88 is indeed puzzling. I don't know if I can find the reference, but in one of the papers that investigated the back migration into East Africa of groups from the Near East, the authors expressed some surprise that there was still a Sardinian like population in the Levant or passing through it at the rather late date they were estimating for some of this movement south. Perhaps V88 was late moving south into the Levant?

*Ed. The Assyrians were eventually conquered by the Medes and the Persians. Some of the members of the so called Lost Tribes, with some cuckoos in the nest, might have been absorbed by the later Babylonian captives, and later returned to Israel. Wow, that's pretty fanciful for me, but possible, I suppose. :)
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I am late to this one, but I think the R-V88 Jews are likely the result of a single founder/family converting in Roman North Africa after the establishment of permanent trading links with the Sahara.

FGC20980 is a subclade of FGC21039 whose subclades show up in Sudan and Chad, notably amongst the Baggara and Toubou; both groups with a long history of trans-Sahelian trading.
 
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