Albanians with I2a1b3 or I-Z17855, where are they most common?

AliPasha

Expert Gynecologist
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Ethnic group
Turkish, Albanian
Y-DNA haplogroup
I-Z17855
I am trying to narrow down my Albanian ancestry. Can someone educate me about Albanians who have this haplogroup?
 
I2a-din (I-L621) downstream.

Slavic origins.
 
[h=5]I-Y3120>Z17855[/h][FONT=&quot]I-Z17855 është dega më e përhapur e grupit Dinaric North në trojet shqiptare. Deri tani e kemi gjetur në Elbasan, në Korçë, dhe së fundi edhe në një rezultat nga Manastiri. Ashti si Y18331, në shumicën e rasteve nuk dallohet vetëm me test STR. Përhapja kësaj linje duhet të jetë pikërisht pjesa juglindore e Shqipërise dhe trevat e Maqedonisë perëndimore. Në Ballkan, ka larmi dhe dendësi më të lartë në lindje (Bullgari, Maqedoni), se në perëndim (ish-Jugosllavi). Ka gjasë që përhapja e saj lidhet kryesisht me fiset u vendosën në Ballkan jo përmes Pellgut Panonik, po duke kaluar Danubin në juglindje të Karpateve, rreth kufirit të sotëm Rumani-Bullgari. Dy rezultatet shqiptare me rezolucion të lartë nga kjo degë, lidhen në rreth 1700 vjet mes tyre dhe me rezultatet e tjera ballkanike.

https://rrenjet.com/i-y3120/#I-Y3120Z17855


[/FONT]
 
Is the Slavic tribe that spread this haplogroup known?
 
We have the same maternal haplogroup haha.
 
Thanks for telling me!
 
It is currently associated with Slavic expansion (even though a lot of lines don't exist in Russia) or early Germanic but I wouldn't rule out initially Dacian or Ancient Macedonian until we get ancient DNA. Most importantly it is the only DNA group born in Europe (I2).

I2 in general is most common in Albanians from Korce and Berat but as for your exact line (Z17855) it doesn't exist in Albanians or is super rare - where are you born? My line does exist in Albanians (Y230195) but I don't know the exact origin
 
It is currently associated with Slavic expansion (even though a lot of lines don't exist in Russia) or early Germanic but I wouldn't rule out initially Dacian or Ancient Macedonian until we get ancient DNA. Most importantly it is the only DNA group born in Europe (I2).

I2 in general is most common in Albanians from Korce and Berat but as for your exact line (Z17855) it doesn't exist in Albanians or is super rare - where are you born? My line does exist in Albanians (Y230195) but I don't know the exact origin

What are you smoking?

Firstly, I-Y3120 has nothing to do with ancient Macedonian or Dacian. It has been found so far exclusively in Slavic remains, including a Sklaveni in Turkey.

Secondly we have 6 Whole Genome Sequenced Albanians under Z17855. There are also other Albanians not whole genome tested. Not sure where you are getting your distorted information from.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/
 
What are you smoking?
Firstly, I-Y3120 has nothing to do with ancient Macedonian or Dacian. It has been found so far exclusively in Slavic remains, including a Sklaveni in Turkey.
Secondly we have 6 Whole Genome Sequenced Albanians under Z17855. There are also other Albanians not whole genome tested. Not sure where you are getting your distorted information from.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

Smoking is bad for health so I avoid it.

Yes so far but you have to remember that i2 has been in Europe for 30,000 years and in Balkans was cremating until Romans brought in Christianity, that is when we start to find ancient I-3120 and we need to keep looking for earlier samples. The "sklaveni" found in turkey was actually not in turkey but Byzantine Anatolia or Asia minor, the name turkey didn't exist at the time because Turkic people hadnt arrived yet

Those 6 are directly under Y230196 not Z17855, that is further upstream. There are also Y230195 Albanians just not on yfull
 
Smoking is bad for health so I avoid it.

Yes so far but you have to remember that i2 has been in Europe for 30,000 years and in Balkans was cremating until Romans brought in Christianity, that is when we start to find ancient I-3120 and we need to keep looking for earlier samples. The "sklaveni" found in turkey was actually not in turkey but Byzantine Anatolia or Asia minor, the name turkey didn't exist at the time because Turkic people hadnt arrived yet

Those 6 are directly under Y230196 not Z17855, that is further upstream. There are also Y230195 Albanians just not on yfull

They are still Z17855. Outside of the Macedonian Serb, none of the samples are basal Z17855. So your point is still null. Z17855 is present in Albanians, and there are more Albanians in Z17855 that haven't been WGS aside from those 6. The Bulgarian is no call (not negative) for clades downstream Z17855. Theres several samples that are no call which have since been assigned downstream when higher quality samples they form branches with are assigned a terminal clade.

Apples and Oranges. It means nothing. They were a Sclaveni in what is today modern Turkey.

You have (under numerous accounts) kept peddling this same nonsense about I2 being in Europe for 30,000 years. That literally has absolutely nothing to do with I-Y3120 which is what we are discussing here. Seems you are adding 28,000 years of history that are pretty much irrelevant in terms of I-Y3120 and its origins/spread in recent history.

Majority of the I2 in Albanians and their South Slavic neighbors are I-Y3120 which dates back to one man that lives in/around 100-200BCE. The diversity for Y3120 is centered around Belarus, Ukraine, and Poland.

We have an early sample of Y3120, and it was in Roman era Poland, and another guy around Serbia in late antiquity and they were genetically Balto-Slavic-Like. The overwhelming majority of the other samples were Slavs. It's movement into the Balkans more often than not was with Slavs. Same as R1a.

The difference is we actually have pre-slavic R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 in a Pre-Slavic Gothic and Celtic context, and other than one sample for I-Y3120 in Wielbark, absolutely zero of that line so far. Even then, most R1a in the Balkans is associated with Slavs and so to is I-Y1320.

Theres a higher likelihood to find a random Goth or La Tene guy under R1a that fell under the Proper Celts subjugation, than we are to find Y3120 in Celts, let alone Dacians of all peoples. Don't forget the neighbors of Dacians were Slavs anyways, so gene flow from them into Romania is likely still to be from contacts with Proto-Slavs.
 
By the way, I forgot to ask, did you try to upload your data on yfull? Or do you have SNPs related to your group?
No I did 23andme and that was what they told me.
 
It is currently associated with Slavic expansion (even though a lot of lines don't exist in Russia) or early Germanic but I wouldn't rule out initially Dacian or Ancient Macedonian until we get ancient DNA. Most importantly it is the only DNA group born in Europe (I2).

I2 in general is most common in Albanians from Korce and Berat but as for your exact line (Z17855) it doesn't exist in Albanians or is super rare - where are you born? My line does exist in Albanians (Y230195) but I don't know the exact origin
My grandpa was an Albanian either from Çamëria or Macedonia. Still trying to figure it out.
 
Majority of the I2 in Albanians and their South Slavic neighbors are I-Y3120 which dates back to one man that lives in/around 100-200BCE. The diversity for Y3120 is centered around Belarus, Ukraine, and Poland.

.
Diversity can show something, but migration path from point A to point B prove ancestral and descendant ie older and younger mutations in the European area. For now, source of Y3120 is in the area of Southeastern Poland, probably also Southwestern Ukraine. In any case, we need archaeogenetic samples from that area for confirmation.

According to Pamjav et al. (2019) and Fóthi et al. (2020), the distribution of ancestral subclades like of I-CTS10228 among contemporary carriers indicates a rapid expansion from Southeastern Poland, is mainly related to the Slavs and their medieval migration, and the "largest demographic explosion occurred in the Balkans".

Kenneth Nordtvedt was the first wich establish that path and he did not establish this path with I2a diversity in Southern Poland and Southwestern Ukraine, he established this with older and younger mutations in area. These are former Dinaric north(older) and south(younger) mutations. Good example is R1b diversity in Western Europe which does not tell us much in terms of migration from the Russian Steppe or migration through the Balkans because in the Balkans or Russian Steppe R1b has no diversity greater than in Western Europe.
 
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They are still Z17855. Outside of the Macedonian Serb, none of the samples are basal Z17855. So your point is still null. Z17855 is present in Albanians, and there are more Albanians in Z17855 that haven't been WGS aside from those 6. The Bulgarian is no call (not negative) for clades downstream Z17855. Theres several samples that are no call which have since been assigned downstream when higher quality samples they form branches with are assigned a terminal clade.

Apples and Oranges. It means nothing. They were a Sclaveni in what is today modern Turkey.

You have (under numerous accounts) kept peddling this same nonsense about I2 being in Europe for 30,000 years. That literally has absolutely nothing to do with I-Y3120 which is what we are discussing here. Seems you are adding 28,000 years of history that are pretty much irrelevant in terms of I-Y3120 and its origins/spread in recent history.

Majority of the I2 in Albanians and their South Slavic neighbors are I-Y3120 which dates back to one man that lives in/around 100-200BCE. The diversity for Y3120 is centered around Belarus, Ukraine, and Poland.

We have an early sample of Y3120, and it was in Roman era Poland, and another guy around Serbia in late antiquity and they were genetically Balto-Slavic-Like. The overwhelming majority of the other samples were Slavs. It's movement into the Balkans more often than not was with Slavs. Same as R1a.

The difference is we actually have pre-slavic R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 in a Pre-Slavic Gothic and Celtic context, and other than one sample for I-Y3120 in Wielbark, absolutely zero of that line so far. Even then, most R1a in the Balkans is associated with Slavs and so to is I-Y1320.

Theres a higher likelihood to find a random Goth or La Tene guy under R1a that fell under the Proper Celts subjugation, than we are to find Y3120 in Celts, let alone Dacians of all peoples. Don't forget the neighbors of Dacians were Slavs anyways, so gene flow from them into Romania is likely still to be from contacts with Proto-Slavs.

No they are downstream of z17855, basal z17855 doesn't exist in Albanians or is super rare.

I2 is the only dna born in Europe and has been here for 30,000 years whether you like it or not - it is not nonsense it is fact. I2 obviously has a pre Slavic history, that is what we are trying to work out here
 
No they are downstream of z17855, basal z17855 doesn't exist in Albanians or is super rare.

I2 is the only dna born in Europe and has been here for 30,000 years whether you like it or not - it is not nonsense it is fact. I2 obviously has a pre Slavic history, that is what we are trying to work out here
What's nonsense is your sheer willful ignorance.

I2 being born in Europe 30,000 years ago is for the umpteenth time absolutely meaningless when we are discussing I-Y3120. Every single haplogroup known to man has a pre-Slavic and Pre-Indo-European history even when you go back 30,000 years. No haplogroup was anything that far back falling in the last 2 ice ages. So again, absolutely irrelevant, and clearly a coping mechanism for you to ignore the obvious.

I-Y3120 was not, and is not originated in the Balkans. You can talk about 30,000 year old lines all you want. It means absolutely nothing when we are discussing these descendant branches which clearly make up almost 100% of I2 in Balkan peoples, and are the result of founder effects and bottlenecks that occurred only between late antiquity and the early medieval. Unless you belong to some paleolithic, or neolithic I2 found in the Balkans that make up a drop in the bucket of modern Balkan peoples, you need to accept the reality from which your line came.

I-Y3120 has it's highest diversity within Slavic populations, and the overwhelming majority of it is a result of Slavic expansion in the Balkans. Your paternal ancestor was not and is not a Dacians, a Celt, or a Illyrian. He was most likely a Slav, and maybe a Goth depending on the avenue of transmission.

I literally explained to you that they are positive for Z17855. They don't have to be basal for Z17855. They are obviously within that line. You are not likely to find true basal Z17855 anywhere outside the Northeast. Theres also 1 basal Z17855 Albanian on ftDNA too genius. Albeit almost all of them, including the Albanian need further testing.

Your initial post never even distinguished between basal and non-basal Z17855. You literally tried claiming Z17855 is rare in Albanians and back peddling with that nonsense to save face.
 
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What's nonsense is your sheer willful ignorance.

I2 being born in Europe 30,000 years ago is for the umpteenth time absolutely meaningless when we are discussing I-Y3120. Every single haplogroup known to man has a pre-Slavic and Pre-Indo-European history even when you go back 30,000 years. No haplogroup was anything that far back falling in the last 2 ice ages. So again, absolutely irrelevant, and clearly a coping mechanism for you to ignore the obvious.

I-Y3120 was not, and is not originated in the Balkans. You can talk about 30,000 year old lines all you want. It means absolutely nothing when we are discussing these descendant branches which clearly make up almost 100% of I2 in Balkan peoples, and are the result of founder effects and bottlenecks that occurred only between late antiquity and the early medieval. Unless you belong to some paleolithic, or neolithic I2 found in the Balkans that make up a drop in the bucket of modern Balkan peoples, you need to accept the reality from which your line came.

I-Y3120 has it's highest diversity within Slavic populations, and the overwhelming majority of it is a result of Slavic expansion in the Balkans. Your paternal ancestor was not and is not a Dacians, a Celt, or a Illyrian. He was most likely a Slav, and maybe a Goth depending on the avenue of transmission.

I literally explained to you that they are positive for Z17855. They don't have to be basal for Z17855. They are obviously within that line. You are not likely to find true basal Z17855 anywhere outside the Northeast. Theres also 1 basal Z17855 Albanian on ftDNA too genius. Albeit almost all of them, including the Albanian need further testing.

Your initial post never even distinguished between basal and non-basal Z17855. You literally tried claiming Z17855 is rare in Albanians and back peddling with that nonsense to save face.

Like I said i2 has been in Europe for 30,000 years, you seem to have a problem with that and not coping. The Slavs or proto Slavs picked it up somewhere in Europe, you still havent explained which ancient people they picked this line from
 
Like I said i2 has been in Europe for 30,000 years, you seem to have a problem with that and not coping. The Slavs or proto Slavs picked it up somewhere in Europe, you still havent explained which ancient people they picked this line from

No one has a problem with a haplogroup originating somewhere 30,000 years ago. The problem is, you keep deflecting the obvious, and keep referencing "but, but, my ancestor was already in Europe 30,000 years ago". That's called coping.....

We are not talking about a 30,000 year old ancestor that existed before documented history, as well as before the last 2 ice ages. In what world is any of that even relevant to discussion?

Most haplogroups, including Indo-European R1a and R1b, had no cultural or ethnolinguistic affiliation whatsoever. At least none we are aware of. Likely all dead languages and races anyways.

What we do know about your I2, Mr. Western Hunter Gatherer, is that you belong to I-Y1320, which, is a Y-DNA that is associated with Proto-Slavic/Slavic expansion. Your most recent ancestor had nothing to do historically with those guys 30,000 years ago. Sam as all R1 peoples were probably in Siberia, or Central Asia before Proto-Indo-European formed.

I have already mentioned the most likely form of transmission into Proto-Slavs/Slavs. Considering that the brother clade of Y3120 is only found in German, and a Frenchman of German origin, it is likely that (like Western related clades) Y3120 was part of some East Germanic extraction. Be that Bastarnae or Goths. It's absolute spread and representation is only found in Eastern Europe, and Southern Slavs as well as Albanians and Greeks who likely assimilated these Slavs or Goths. However, we do not have ancient East Germanic remains that are I-Y3120.

You have tried to claim on many forums, including Anthrogenica, that R1a is the only Slavic haplogroups and I2 is WHG. Clearly ignoring the fact that we actually have Celtic and Germanic remains with R1a-M458, and even R1a-Z280, and yet zero I-Y3120 thus far. While it is likely to be found on them given the distribution of modern distant cousin branches to I-Y1320; you clearly like to deflect this fact in favor of your WHG argument, when its not relevant to the branch we are discussing.

Using your logic, R1a is not Baltic(Z280), its not Slavic(M458), its not Germanic(L664), it's not Scandinavian(Z284), it's not Satem Indo-European(M417/Z645), it's not Siberian (R -Malta Boy), it's Alien at this point 30,000 years ago.

So please, enough ignorance from you. Get with the program, and either speak in terms of documented and recorded history, or just crawl back into your WHG cave and pretend you live 30,000 years ago.
 
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