Albanians with I2a1b3 or I-Z17855, where are they most common?

[TaktikatEMalet]

No one has a problem with a haplogroup originating somewhere 30,000 years ago. The problem is, you keep deflecting the obvious, and keep referencing "but, but, my ancestor was already in Europe 30,000 years ago". That's called coping.....

We are not talking about a 30,000 year old ancestor that existed before documented history, as well as before the last 2 ice ages. In what world is any of that even relevant to discussion?

Most haplogroups, including Indo-European R1a and R1b, had no cultural or ethnolinguistic affiliation whatsoever. At least none we are aware of. Likely all dead languages and races anyways.

What we do know about your I2, Mr. Western Hunter Gatherer, is that you belong to I-Y1320, which, is a Y-DNA that is associated with Proto-Slavic/Slavic expansion. Your most recent ancestor had nothing to do historically with those guys 30,000 years ago. Sam as all R1 peoples were probably in Siberia, or Central Asia before Proto-Indo-European formed.

I have already mentioned the most likely form of transmission into Proto-Slavs/Slavs. Considering that the brother clade of Y3120 is only found in German, and a Frenchman of German origin, it is likely that (like Western related clades) Y3120 was part of some East Germanic extraction. Be that Bastarnae or Goths. It's absolute spread and representation is only found in Eastern Europe, and Southern Slavs as well as Albanians and Greeks who likely assimilated these Slavs or Goths. However, we do not have ancient East Germanic remains that are I-Y3120.

You have tried to claim on many forums, including Anthrogenica, that R1a is the only Slavic haplogroups and I2 is WHG. Clearly ignoring the fact that we actually have Celtic and Germanic remains with R1a-M458, and even R1a-Z280, and yet zero I-Y3120 thus far. While it is likely to be found on them given the distribution of modern distant cousin branches to I-Y1320; you clearly like to deflect this fact in favor of your WHG argument, when its not relevant to the branch we are discussing.

Using your logic, R1a is not Baltic(Z280), its not Slavic(M458), its not Germanic(L664), it's not Scandinavian(Z284), it's not Satem Indo-European(M417/Z645), it's not Siberian (R -Malta Boy), it's Alien at this point 30,000 years ago.

So please, enough ignorance from you. Get with the program, and either speak in terms of documented and recorded history, or just crawl back into your WHG cave and pretend you live 30,000 years ago.

For some reason you continue with this anger, I am stating facts that I2 was born in Europe 30,000 years ago. Why should someone ignore that history, next you will tell me that R1a is not common in India and Turkic people because you want to ignore the history of the line.

But at least finally you are understanding that the Slavs picked this up somewhere. I think around North Europe, maybe from the Suebi/Suevi.

 

[Dibran]

For some reason you continue with this anger, I am stating facts that I2 was born in Europe 30,000 years ago. Why should someone ignore that history, next you will tell me that R1a is not common in India and Turkic people because you want to ignore the history of the line.

But at least finally you are understanding that the Slavs picked this up somewhere. I think around North Europe, maybe from the Suebi/Suevi.

The only one who doesn't understand is you, because you're being a troll. No, I never mentioned any of that. Unlike you, I don't generalize an entire haplogroup that has different branches and expansion events. R1a in those regions is Z93. Do you know what a subclade is Mr. WHG??

Suebi/Suevi were practically wiped out by the time of the Slavic migrations, and Slavs acquired it long before Suebi were documented. The only East Germanic tribes that came into contact with Proto-Slavs/Slavs were Bastarnae and Goths.

 

[Who Cares?]

As it stands now yfull is currently having revision for I-Z17855. There might be some changes related to age estimation.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The only one who doesn't understand is you, because you're being a troll. No, I never mentioned any of that. Unlike you, I don't generalize an entire haplogroup that has different branches and expansion events. R1a in those regions is Z93. Do you know what a subclade is Mr. WHG??

Suebi/Suevi were practically wiped out by the time of the Slavic migrations, and Slavs acquired it long before Suebi were documented. The only East Germanic tribes that came into contact with Proto-Slavs/Slavs were Bastarnae and Goths.

You're trolling on I2 line saying it's history doesn't matter, why do you hate Europe?

Maybe the Suebi/Suevi were wiped out by the proto Slavs coming in from the east and that's where they picked up some I2. Bastarnae is another possibility, we can rule out Goths as we don't see any presence in Italy or Spain.

 

[Dibran]

You're trolling on I2 line saying it's history doesn't matter, why do you hate Europe?

Maybe the Suebi/Suevi were wiped out by the proto Slavs coming in from the east and that's where they picked up some I2. Bastarnae is another possibility, we can rule out Goths as we don't see any presence in Italy or Spain.

Wrong. You really do just speak nonsense. Again, the founder effect and bottlenecks of I-Y3120 in Slavs goes back to the Proto-Slavic Era of Zarubintsy. Long before the Suebi were recorded.

The Suebi moved with the Visigoths/Hermaneric in the 4th century mostly West, and founded the Kingdom of the Suebi in Galicia, Hispania.

The fragments that remained behind were dissolved in the 4th century. All these events occurred long after Y3120 was firmly nestled among the Proto-Slavs/Slavs.

Also, we do have some Y1320 in Italy(from Slavs), and there is zero Y3120 in Galicia, Spain dating back that far(where the Suebi were).

Try again.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Wrong. You really do just speak nonsense. Again, the founder effect and bottlenecks of I-Y3120 in Slavs goes back to the Proto-Slavic Era of Zarubintsy. Long before the Suebi were recorded.

The Suebi moved with the Visigoths/Hermaneric in the 4th century mostly West, and founded the Kingdom of the Suebi in Galicia, Hispania.

The fragments that remained behind were dissolved in the 4th century. All these events occurred long after Y3120 was firmly nestled among the Proto-Slavs/Slavs.

Also, we do have some Y1320 in Italy(from Slavs), and there is zero Y3120 in Galicia, Spain dating back that far(where the Suebi were).

Try again.

I'm not the one ignoring 30,000 years of history. You have your dates wrong, Suevi/Suebi were already active in BC -

"The Suevians were first mentioned by Julius Caesar in connection with the invasion of Gaul by the Germanic king Ariovistus during the Gallic Wars. Unlike Tacitus he described them as a single people, distinct from the Marcomanni, within the larger Germanic category who he saw as a growing threat to Gaul and Italy in the first century BC, as they had been moving southwards aggressively, at the expense of Gallic tribes, and establishing a Germanic presence in the immediate areas north of the Danube. In particular, he saw the Suebians as the most warlike of the Germanic peoples."

How do you explain the consistent presence of the upstream of this line in Baden-Wurttemberg where the Suevi were historically - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabia_(Bavaria)

I-L621 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[Hioloi]

What's nonsense is your sheer willful ignorance.

I2 being born in Europe 30,000 years ago is for the umpteenth time absolutely meaningless when we are discussing I-Y3120. Every single haplogroup known to man has a pre-Slavic and Pre-Indo-European history even when you go back 30,000 years. No haplogroup was anything that far back falling in the last 2 ice ages. So again, absolutely irrelevant, and clearly a coping mechanism for you to ignore the obvious.

I-Y3120 was not, and is not originated in the Balkans. You can talk about 30,000 year old lines all you want. It means absolutely nothing when we are discussing these descendant branches which clearly make up almost 100% of I2 in Balkan peoples, and are the result of founder effects and bottlenecks that occurred only between late antiquity and the early medieval. Unless you belong to some paleolithic, or neolithic I2 found in the Balkans that make up a drop in the bucket of modern Balkan peoples, you need to accept the reality from which your line came.

I-Y3120 has it's highest diversity within Slavic populations, and the overwhelming majority of it is a result of Slavic expansion in the Balkans. Your paternal ancestor was not and is not a Dacians, a Celt, or a Illyrian. He was most likely a Slav, and maybe a Goth depending on the avenue of transmission.

I literally explained to you that they are positive for Z17855. They don't have to be basal for Z17855. They are obviously within that line. You are not likely to find true basal Z17855 anywhere outside the Northeast. Theres also 1 basal Z17855 Albanian on ftDNA too genius. Albeit almost all of them, including the Albanian need further testing.

Your initial post never even distinguished between basal and non-basal Z17855. You literally tried claiming Z17855 is rare in Albanians and back peddling with that nonsense to save face.

Happy new year XD

So, haplogroup I-Z17855 isn't rare amongst Albanians?

 

[epirus1000]

My grandpa was an Albanian either from Çamëria or Macedonia. Still trying to figure it out.

It can be either way, including North Greece, which had a huge population of Slavs and Albanians before 20th century.

 

[Hioloi]

It can be either way, including North Greece, which had a huge population of Slavs and Albanians before 20th century.

Yeah. In my area many Albanians moved into after the Çam genocide. There's a whole village of them 2 hours away from my hometown.

There's also a Macedonian Albanian village nearby.

On top of that ww1 and the subsequent Greco-Turkish War killed off large chunks of the Anatolian population, so many of us in the west have distant Balkan ancestry, because they repopulated many areas.

There was also a population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Muslim Albanians and Greeks (Vallahades) were seen as Turks so they were sent over.

 

[Who Cares?]

Yeah. In my area many Albanians moved into after the Çam genocide. There's a whole village of them 2 hours away from my hometown.

There's also a Macedonian Albanian village nearby.

On top of that ww1 and the subsequent Greco-Turkish War killed off large chunks of the Anatolian population, so many of us in the west have distant Balkan ancestry, because they repopulated many areas.

There was also a population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Muslim Albanians and Greeks (Vallahades) were seen as Turks so they were sent over.

Do you have subclade?

 

[Hioloi]

Do you have subclade?

No. The best I have is I-Z17855. I tested with 23andme. I don't have money for big y as of yet -_-

 

[Who Cares?]

No. The best I have is I-Z17855. I tested with 23andme. I don't have money for big y as of yet -_-

Because I see some subclades of Z17855 are present among Albanians from some regions of Albania (Korca, Shokoder), so if you knew your subclade maybe you could ask some of the tested folks there and it might give you a direction where to look. Then again if your ancestors were Macedonian Muslims it will be very difficult to find out more about your folks because they have different surnames (presumably that you kept or know Albanian surname of your ancestor).

 

[Hioloi]

Because I see some subclades of Z17855 are present among Albanians from some regions of Albania (Korca, Shokoder), so if you knew your subclade maybe you could ask some of the tested folks there and it might give you a direction where to look. Then again if your ancestors were Macedonian Muslims it will be very difficult to find out more about your folks because they have different surnames (presumably that you kept or know Albanian surname of your ancestor).

Well, yeah, I do have a surname that is present in Albanians, only that it misses the I at the end.

The surname is also somewhat common though as it's a Turkish word. So idk.

 

[Who Cares?]

Well, yeah, I do have a surname that is present in Albanians, only that it misses the I at the end.

The surname is also somewhat common though as it's a Turkish word. So idk.

First you would need to find matches from the same subclade on FTDNA or YFULL. Perhaps someone has family tree that stretches few hundred years back. If that's the case then you can start checking in the achieves.

But also, as I said if you get Macedonian/Bulgarian/Serbian matches its basically a dead end (as in you can't use common surname to make a link).

 

[Hioloi]

First you would need to find matches from the same subclade on FTDNA or YFULL. Perhaps someone has family tree that stretches few hundred years back. If that's the case then you can start checking in the achieves.

But also, as I said if you get Macedonian/Bulgarian/Serbian matches its basically a dead end (as in you can't use common surname to make a link).

I have matches from all over.

I already contacted so many, and a handful have responded.

I have the same amount of matches from Kosovo and other Gheg territories that I do in Tosk territories. I also have Croatian, Serbian, Greek, etc. matches.

The surnames never match. I also try to look for the same y-dna, but I have no luck.

 

[Dibran]

Happy new year XD

So, haplogroup I-Z17855 isn't rare amongst Albanians?

Happy new year to you as well!

No I-Z17855 is not particularly rare. It makes up a sizeable portion of Albanian I-Y3120.

Not many WGS though to determine where they all may fall.