All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[hrvclv]

Ust-Ishim and Afontova Gora have nothing to do.

Sure. What I meant was, if you refer to the depths of the paleolithic, you don't prove much in terms of where L51 originated.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Sure. What I meant was, if you refer to the depths of the paleolithic, you don't prove much in terms of where L51 originated.

Do you still believe in a Steppe origin of L51 by the way?

 

[Ygorcs]

Yes. But you also have one R*, one R1, one R1b1a near Belgrade in 7000 BC. Those mesolithic people, isolated in an ocean of G2a, I2a, and J1, can hardly be supposed to have much to do with the coherent movements (of genes and language) from the Pontic Steppe that can be described at later dates. They were most probably wandering HG tribes or outlier R1b who had come along with the "farmers".

IMHO it's clearer and clearer that R1b was, before the Neolithic, mainly a North Eurasian lineage. There was the earliest R1b in Villabruna, R1b in the Mesolithic Balkans and Early Neolithic Spain. Anyway, none of them belonged to R1b-M269, and when we start to see downstream subclades of M269 in the aDNA record we see them mostly in Eastern Europe or near the Caucasus, again broadly in North Eurasia.

 

[hrvclv]

a. Associate PIE to CHG (or other) is a mistake. PIE success must have been because it was a very broad, everything encompassing, holistic in its entirety.... so the language of the marvelous Shulaveri : ) , because they were very diverse in their way of live. Most studying them got confused. Some were Transhumance ( like the one Z2103 in Hajji Firuz) from Armenia, some villages completely artisan, some villages completely agricultural, some as we now know Hydraulic engineers diverging rivers... and even the western Georgia ones more fisher and hunters. Yet they all shared the same cultural traits.... that made their language so complete and successful. their language explain everything.

b. to better explain your question on the minoan - not that its not 100% clear that Linear B is not IE. But Look at it this way: That Z2103 guy spoke PIE (or close to it) but the J2a there with him didn't (he was just teaching them to make wine) . When whatever came from the east Caspian or/and Iran or and Mesopotamia kick them out and made the Kura-araxes and Leyla Tepe and Uruks and Maykops...kick them both. Some might have spoke PIE and others fleeing other routes might not. Lets even say, that the J2a living near the Caspian and big lakes knew how to make nice boats to flee by the sea when needed and the R1b-L23...didnt really so went by land

Look... it will turn out a very complex picture and a very elaborate caleidoscope of nuances of how people really moved around, that at this early stages we only have a few dots ... we are making too much lines based on too little dots. It really needs to be somewhat wrong, no matter what one says.

OK, but it's hard to keep track of those L23 across Anatolia, even if we allow for some space between the "dots".

And if J2a left when "whatever came from the east" arrived, then there shouldn't have been lots of J2a in Kura-Araxes and neighbouring areas and cultures afterwards. Did some J2a replace other J2a ?

To get back on track (L51), isn't it simpler to "follow the clades" downstream from place to place, using the data we do have? L23 on the steppe, L51 on the Danube, L11 in Bohemia, U106 south of the Baltic, P312 heading west, L21 ending up in Britain, U152 around the Alps, DF27 in Iberia, all of it chronologically and geographically coherent?

There may of course have been parallel, alternative migrations we don't know of. In fact, I'm sure there were, and many of them. But we shouldn't fail to see the forest for the sake of one lone tree.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

IMHO it's clearer and clearer that R1b was, before the Neolithic, mainly a North Eurasian lineage. There was the earliest R1b in Villabruna, R1b in the Mesolithic Balkans and Early Neolithic Spain. Anyway, none of them belonged to R1b-M269, and when we start to see downstream subclades of M269 in the aDNA record we see them mostly in Eastern Europe or near the Caucasus, again broadly in North Eurasia.

What about the variance of M269 indicating a Balkan origin? I know this methodology has its flaws, but you'd surely think not so here given M269's immense age. Matches up with this map too:

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

OK, but it's hard to keep track of those L23 across Anatolia, even if we allow for some space between the "dots".

And if J2a left when "whatever came from the east" arrived, then there shouldn't have been lots of J2a in Kura-Araxes and neighbouring areas and cultures afterwards. Did some J2a replace other J2a ?

To get back on track (L51), isn't it simpler to "follow the clades" downstream from place to place, using the data we do have? L23 on the steppe, L51 on the Danube, L11 in Bohemia, U106 south of the Baltic, P312 heading west, L21 ending up in Britain, U152 around the Alps, DF27 in Iberia, all of it chronologically and geographically coherent?

There may of course have been parallel, alternative migrations we don't know of. In fact, I'm sure there were, and many of them. But we shouldn't fail to see the forest for the sake of one lone tree.

Do we have L23* on the Steppe? The earliest subclades off of L23 are in West Asia (lots of Armenians)

 

[hrvclv]

Do you still believe in a Steppe origin of L51 by the way?

Yes, I do. Too much steppe in them to come from anywhere else. I agree you guys have made interesting points, but I think you fail to look at things the way they are. Forgive the blunt wording, but I find you tend to pick on exceptions to stray from the obvious.

Anyway, it's past bedtime where I belong. It was nice talking to you all. Too bad we are so far apart. It would have been nice to chat away on such matters over a glass of something strong. Bye for now.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yes, I do. Too much steppe in them to come from anywhere else. I agree you guys have made interesting points, but I think you fail to look at things the way they are. Forgive the blunt wording, but I find you tend to pick on exceptions to stray from the obvious.

Anyway, it's past bedtime where I belong. It was nice talking to you all. Too bad we are so far apart. It would have been nice to chat away on such matters over a glass of something strong. Bye for now.

It's only an hour earlier for me! But yeah, see you later.

(*cough* Steppe admixture from Corded Ware *cough*)

 

[Ygorcs]

What about the variance of M269 indicating a Balkan origin? I know this methodology has its flaws, but you'd surely think not so here given M269's immense age. Matches up with this map too:

Well, I'd say if this is true then it corresponds well with what I told above: R1b was a North Eurasian . Europe as a whole is part of North Eurasia (the southernmost parts of the continent are as far north as North China) and is directly linked to North Asia with no major and insurmountable barrier (the steppes, even the Urals are not that big a barrier). Even the northern part of West Asia (Caucasus, Black Sea coast, Caspian coast etc.) is an easily reached from North Eurasia.

As for R1b-M269 minus L23 being more concentrated on the Balkans, as you know these inferences are a bit flawed, we can't just presume that the most ancient population carrying the upstream clades of a haplogroup never got completely extinct or completely displaced from their original homeland (I'd say, though, that usually this kind of study allows us to at least establish the broad region where the haplogroup came from, in this case broadly Eastern Europe). I do not dispute that is likely.

But in any case I was talking about R1b as a whole, not such a downstream and specific subclade and M269. I have no strong opinion about the origin of M269, but I'd say, yes, somewhere between the Balkans and the Caspian Sea region (I know, a huge area, but my best guess until more specific data are brought to the table).

However, unlike you, I do believe that L23 in its latest stage before splitting into L51 and Z2103 existed first on the steppes, or at least east of the Carpathians. And I think that all of that happened before the Copper Age and still in early Neolithic or even Mesolithic times, with L51 and Z2103 becoming two different lineages (probably far apart from each other, but still in the same broad region) in the transition from the Late Neolithic to the Chalcolithic. I think these two populations were similar (not identical) autosomally, probably some mix of EHG, CHG and a little EEF, because the Caucasus paper found the "usual" EHG+CHG mix in Pontic-Caspian samples as early as the Early Chalcolithic (estimated 4200 BC).

I see Indo-European languages being spread by both L51 and Z2103 tribes, and I just cannot for now believe in an origin of undivided PIE any earlier than ~4500-4000 BCE, roughly the time when L51 and Z2103 are already supposed to have been distinct lineages. I think the idea these L51 people adopted their centum and in many aspects "archaic" Northwest IE language from the CWC (who are probably associated with the appearance of satem Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian centuries later), mixing to form the BB, quite hard to accept. The innovative characteristics of satem languages had probably already developed by the mid Bronze Age, and we'd expect Celto-Italic to be much closer to Balto-Slavic than they are (some glottochronology methods estimated their split to as early as ~3300-3100 BC IIRC).

 

[halfalp]

Sure. What I meant was, if you refer to the depths of the paleolithic, you don't prove much in terms of where L51 originated.

Well i talked about R1 in paleolithic, not about L-51.

 

[halfalp]

Well, I'd say if this is true then it corresponds well with what I told above: R1b was a North Eurasian . Europe as a whole is part of North Eurasia (the southernmost parts of the continent are as far north as North China) and is directly linked to North Asia with no major and insurmountable barrier (the steppes, even the Urals are not that big a barrier). Even the northern part of West Asia (Caucasus, Black Sea coast, Caspian coast etc.) is an easily reached from North Eurasia.

As for R1b-M269 minus L23 being more concentrated on the Balkans, as you know these inferences are a bit flawed, we can't just presume that the most ancient population carrying the upstream clades of a haplogroup never got completely extinct or completely displaced from their original homeland (I'd say, though, that usually this kind of study allows us to at least establish the broad region where the haplogroup came from, in this case broadly Eastern Europe). I do not dispute that is likely.

But in any case I was talking about R1b as a whole, not such a downstream and specific subclade and M269. I have no strong opinion about the origin of M269, but I'd say, yes, somewhere between the Balkans and the Caspian Sea region (I know, a huge area, but my best guess until more specific data are brought to the table).

However, unlike you, I do believe that L23 in its latest stage before splitting into L51 and Z2103 existed first on the steppes, or at least east of the Carpathians. And I think that all of that happened before the Copper Age and still in early Neolithic or even Mesolithic times, with L51 and Z2103 becoming two different lineages (probably far apart from each other, but still in the same broad region) in the transition from the Late Neolithic to the Chalcolithic. I think these two populations were similar (not identical) autosomally, probably some mix of EHG, CHG and a little EEF, because the Caucasus paper found the "usual" EHG+CHG mix in Pontic-Caspian samples as early as the Early Chalcolithic (estimated 4200 BC).

I see Indo-European languages being spread by both L51 and Z2103 tribes, and I just cannot for now believe in an origin of undivided PIE any earlier than ~4500-4000 BCE, roughly the time when L51 and Z2103 are already supposed to have been distinct lineages. I think the idea these L51 people adopted their centum and in many aspects "archaic" Northwest IE language from the CWC (who are probably associated with the appearance of satem Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian centuries later), mixing to form the BB, quite hard to accept. The innovative characteristics of satem languages had probably already developed by the mid Bronze Age, and we'd expect Celto-Italic to be much closer to Balto-Slavic than they are (some glottochronology methods estimated their split to as early as ~3300-3100 BC IIRC).

All that you say is pretty much what i believe. That's funny that in all papers, we always have some obscure R1b samples ( R1b-V88 in balkans and russian wtf ) but never the one we really want cf R1b-M269 / R1b-L51. If we look at the phylogenetic tree of R1b. M-269 father R1b-P297 is in prehistoric Baltic and Eastern Europe as a whole and the brother, R1b-M478 looks mainly like a Central Asian lineage ( it was found in Botai ). What are the odds that the father and the brother are north eurasian and that the latter is south eurasian? The same story goes with L51, the father L23 and the brother Z2103 are north eurasians, why the brother would be south eurasian? Isn't that funny that L23 and Z2103 in anatolia are always saying to be here before yamnaya ( for odd reasons ) but that nobody imagine it could be remnants of original IE Anatolians? Sometimes i feel people have so much bias, they cannot reason wisely. Look at Yamnaya, full R1b, 60% EHG, 40% CHG. Those are actually very interesting numbers. If R1b was 100% CHG and coming from lets saying Armenia into the Pontic Steppe, Yamnaya would be 80% CHG, something 10% EHG and other southern admixture, it would be basically Maikop with R1b. But the 40% are still very big, too big, too big for a demic migration who didn't let any lineage in the pontic steppe. So as you already previously mentioned a lot of times, we can deduce that CHG in north eurasia predate probably even the neolithic, i might even say that, EHG and CHG might predate or be contemporary with WHG. It make sense, Dzudzuana had both Basal Eurasian and ANE, so north and south would already exchange dna this early south and north of the caucasus. EHG doesn't have basal eurasian, so it came not from the south, but CHG have, so it is transitional with the north and the south. I think future samples of paleolithic central asia and easter europe gonna reveal us some interesting surprises, things we didn't assume until now, i'm particularly interested in mtdna U4 in a paleolithic context.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Well, I'd say if this is true then it corresponds well with what I told above: R1b was a North Eurasian . Europe as a whole is part of North Eurasia (the southernmost parts of the continent are as far north as North China) and is directly linked to North Asia with no major and insurmountable barrier (the steppes, even the Urals are not that big a barrier). Even the northern part of West Asia (Caucasus, Black Sea coast, Caspian coast etc.) is an easily reached from North Eurasia.

As for R1b-M269 minus L23 being more concentrated on the Balkans, as you know these inferences are a bit flawed, we can't just presume that the most ancient population carrying the upstream clades of a haplogroup never got completely extinct or completely displaced from their original homeland (I'd say, though, that usually this kind of study allows us to at least establish the broad region where the haplogroup came from, in this case broadly Eastern Europe). I do not dispute that is likely.

But in any case I was talking about R1b as a whole, not such a downstream and specific subclade and M269. I have no strong opinion about the origin of M269, but I'd say, yes, somewhere between the Balkans and the Caspian Sea region (I know, a huge area, but my best guess until more specific data are brought to the table).

However, unlike you, I do believe that L23 in its latest stage before splitting into L51 and Z2103 existed first on the steppes, or at least east of the Carpathians. And I think that all of that happened before the Copper Age and still in early Neolithic or even Mesolithic times, with L51 and Z2103 becoming two different lineages (probably far apart from each other, but still in the same broad region) in the transition from the Late Neolithic to the Chalcolithic. I think these two populations were similar (not identical) autosomally, probably some mix of EHG, CHG and a little EEF, because the Caucasus paper found the "usual" EHG+CHG mix in Pontic-Caspian samples as early as the Early Chalcolithic (estimated 4200 BC).

I see Indo-European languages being spread by both L51 and Z2103 tribes, and I just cannot for now believe in an origin of undivided PIE any earlier than ~4500-4000 BCE, roughly the time when L51 and Z2103 are already supposed to have been distinct lineages. I think the idea these L51 people adopted their centum and in many aspects "archaic" Northwest IE language from the CWC (who are probably associated with the appearance of satem Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian centuries later), mixing to form the BB, quite hard to accept. The innovative characteristics of satem languages had probably already developed by the mid Bronze Age, and we'd expect Celto-Italic to be much closer to Balto-Slavic than they are (some glottochronology methods estimated their split to as early as ~3300-3100 BC IIRC).

That's fair enough, I guess we just disagree, and hopefully aDNA will solve this dispute. I think the points about Y DNA being somewhat inconsistent with Steppe L51 and Yamnaya not being all Z2103 can't be answered as of yet (which is where most of my argument comes from). But yeah, wait for aDNA.

 

[Olympus Mons]

OK, but it's hard to keep track of those L23 across Anatolia, even if we allow for some space between the "dots".

And if J2a left when "whatever came from the east" arrived, then there shouldn't have been lots of J2a in Kura-Araxes and neighboring areas and cultures afterwards. Did some J2a replace other J2a ?

Who are asking questions to follow “error detection” regarding thing happening 7000 years ago. Any answer would be as smart or as dumb as the next one.
Kura Araxes was more that 1000 years after the arrival of that people from “elsewhere”. Maybe Kura Araxes was the J2a that stayed and Minoan the J2a that left… over3000 years before. Do you see the time space of dots??

To get back on track (L51), isn't it simpler to "follow the clades" downstream from place to place, using the data we do have? L23 on the steppe, L51 on the Danube, L11 in Bohemia, U106 south of the Baltic, P312 heading west, L21 ending up in Britain, U152 around the Alps, DF27 in Iberia, all of it chronologically and geographically coherent?

Might be right. However all those samples are tremendously bias by:

1. Cold (cold places preserve Dna) and they really wanted DNA and not failures upon failures. Just take the Indian samples and the problems is creating.
2. Bias by the money of the USA and german Universities/researchers that really really wanted to prove right their, lets call it , inclinations….

There may of course have been parallel, alternative migrations we don't know of. In fact, I'm sure there were, and many of them. But we shouldn't fail to see the forest for the sake of one lone tree.

We will see. For years it was taunted the mantra of PIE from the steppe.... until whatever really fast made them change their tune.

 

[markod]

You are wasting your time with these debates :grin:

Too bad most authors don't bother to look much into Y-DNA haplogroups, but the M269 in ATP3 would be worth investigating. He does have an excess of HG ancestry. I'd think if the data allowed for a higher resolution there'd be a good chance he's L51 or close.

If that's not the case then an origin in Yamnaya Hungary/Croatia is more likely.
'

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

You are wasting your time with these debates :grin:

Too bad most authors don't bother to look much into Y-DNA haplogroups, but the M269 in ATP3 would be worth investigating. He does have an excess of HG ancestry. I'd think if the data allowed for a higher resolution there'd be a good chance he's L51 or close.

If that's not the case then an origin in Yamnaya Hungary/Croatia is more likely.
'

I agree concerning ATP3, HOWEVER even if he doesn't end up being L51 that doesn't automatically mean the origin is in Danubian Yamnaya - that's not how it works. What you would need to effectively prove the Danubian Yamnaya hypothesis is ancient L51 in its territory.

L51 maritime hypothesis come onnnnnnnn!

(Sorry about that)

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

You are wasting your time with these debates :grin:

Too bad most authors don't bother to look much into Y-DNA haplogroups, but the M269 in ATP3 would be worth investigating. He does have an excess of HG ancestry. I'd think if the data allowed for a higher resolution there'd be a good chance he's L51 or close.

If that's not the case then an origin in Yamnaya Hungary/Croatia is more likely.
'

By the way, do we know what subclades of R1b the Native Americans belong to. It is literally criminal and suspect that that hasn't been studied in further detail.

 

[markod]

By the way, do we know what subclades of R1b the Native Americans belong to. It is literally criminal and suspect that that hasn't been studied in further detail.

This hasn't been investigated much because there was no pre-Columbian R1b if that's what you mean. If there was it would stand out like a sore thumb due to the long time of divergence.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

This hasn't been investigated much because there was no pre-Columbian R1b if that's what you mean. If there was it would stand out like a sore thumb due to the long time of divergence.

I think there is pre-Columbian R1b And yeah, it would stick out if investigated.

But I'm perfectly willing to accept that this has way less evidence than my maritime L51 theory (not "mine" at all, but you get the point).

But, I mean, red Caucasoid hair and swastikas and shit like that has to come from somewhere. Perhaps it came from ANE-like ancestry, but I think it came from the West not the East (with respect to the Americas)

 

[Olympus Mons]

You are wasting your time with these debates :grin:

Too bad most authors don't bother to look much into Y-DNA haplogroups, but the M269 in ATP3 would be worth investigating. He does have an excess of HG ancestry. I'd think if the data allowed for a higher resolution there'd be a good chance he's L51 or close.

If that's not the case then an origin in Yamnaya Hungary/Croatia is more likely.
'

Hi. how do you know about the increase in HG?

and.... I bet you, I truly bet you.... if not as a descendent of ATP3 then L51 is not Croatia/HUngary Yamnaya (3500bc?), but Romania/bulgaria as a Boian/Gulmenita (4300BC).

 

[Pygmalion]

Other than some of the El Algar artifacts, is there a big presence of, say, Minoan or Mycenaean ware?

No, there's not a big presence, to be precise there's zero evidence of Minoan or Mycenaean presence during the El Argar period. When the first mycenaen pots reached Iberia in the 14th century bc, the El Argar citadels had already long been abandoned, they were abandoned around 1550 bc, that is, when the Mycenaean culture was still in its very initial phase (protomycenaean). Furthermore there's no trace of Minoan presence whatsoever in Iberia, if I remember correctly there are no cretan or mycenaean artifacts in the Western Mediterranean at all outside of maybe Apulia before the 14th century bc, either way I'm sure there's zero in Iberia before that date.