Genetic study Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the Northern Iranian Plateau

Last edited:
I wrote here in Eupedia Forum since 2011 that our Brazilian Portuguese clade (in 2011 we had only the M365 SNP more modal STR markers and we were classified as J1b, then) was of Iranic origin related to the Alans in Lusitania and Gallaecia:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...the-portuguese-and-brazilian-y-dna-j1b.26998/
Ricardo

Thread 'Y DNA J1b in Europe'

Estimating the time of most recent common ancestor (tMRCA) for Y DNA J1b M365+ in Europe
The STR diversity between the different clusters is related to 1500/2000 years before present
That’s the period of the Fall of the Roman Empire. A rare haplogroup is connected with a unique event when a “Portal” was opened between the Caspian Sea and the Portuguese Atlantic Littoral.
Groups of Alans invaded Europe and brought new ideas and new haplogroups.
J1b was one of the components of that movement. J1b is a basal branch of J1, negative to the new Z1834 SNP(defining the388=13 clade).

393 390 19...
  • Like
Now we have the Y full sequence of SNPs and ancient DNA documenting and proving the lineage around the Caspian Sea and the Iranic origin.
I wrote a text in 2015 - "Nós Somos Alanos" !
www.academia.edu

"Nós somos Alanos": Documentos, Mitos e Concepções dos Alanos no Ocidente Ibérico.

Portugal e por consequência boa parte do Brasil apresentam múltiplas raízes existenciais, culturais e genéticas. Há vários Portugais e vários Brasis, unos e diversos. Nós temos um Portugal Celta, um Portugal Romano, um Portugal Suevo, um Portugal
www.academia.edu
 
Tautalus said:
These are phonetic similarities that mean nothing.
The name Portucale came from the Latin Portus (port) and the Celtic Cale, which means also port according to some theories.

And the Tapori where an ancient Celtic tribe.

Neither one has anything to do with ancient Iran.
Click to expand...

If there were just one similar name, it could be certainly coincidental but almost all known people in the south of Caspian sea have Celtic names:

1. Gilak people in Gilan province: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaks

They were mentioned as Gaeli by Pliny: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gaeli Compare Gaels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

2. Galesh people in south-eastern Gilan and western Mazandaran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeshi

Name of Gulistan province (land of Gauls) in the east of Mazandaran relates to them, Compare Gauls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls

3. Buyi people in Central Gilan who created Buyid empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyid_dynasty

Compare Boii: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

4. Cadusii people in the west of Gilan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii

Strabo call them a warlike tribe, from Proto-Celtic Cadus/Catus "combat", compare Cadurci: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadurci and Catuslugi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catuslugi\

5. Tapuri people in Mazandaran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapuri

Compare Tapori: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapoli

6. Hyrcani people in Mazandaran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcani

Strabo talks about their migration to Galatia and western Anatolia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcanian_plain Their name relates to Hyrcanian forests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcanian_forests from Proto-Celtic ɸerkuniā "oak", Comapre Hercynian Forest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest

7. Volkana/Varkana people in Gulistan province: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgan

It means land of wolves, comapre Volcae: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae

8. Pumani/Fumani people in Fuman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuman,_Iran

Compare Poemani: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poemani and Paemani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paemani

9. Caspian/Kassite people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspians

Compare Cassi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassi
 
Last edited:
Ricardo said:
I wrote here in Eupedia Forum since 2011 that our Brazilian Portuguese clade (in 2011 we had only the M365 SNP more modal STR markers and we were classified as J1b, then) was of Iranic origin related to the Alans in Lusitania and Gallaecia:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...the-portuguese-and-brazilian-y-dna-j1b.26998/
Ricardo

Thread 'Y DNA J1b in Europe'

Estimating the time of most recent common ancestor (tMRCA) for Y DNA J1b M365+ in Europe
The STR diversity between the different clusters is related to 1500/2000 years before present
That’s the period of the Fall of the Roman Empire. A rare haplogroup is connected with a unique event when a “Portal” was opened between the Caspian Sea and the Portuguese Atlantic Littoral.
Groups of Alans invaded Europe and brought new ideas and new haplogroups.
J1b was one of the components of that movement. J1b is a basal branch of J1, negative to the new Z1834 SNP(defining the388=13 clade).

393 390 19...
  • Like
Now we have the Y full sequence of SNPs and ancient DNA documenting and proving the lineage around the Caspian Sea and the Iranic origin.
I wrote a text in 2015 - "Nós Somos Alanos" !
www.academia.edu

"Nós somos Alanos": Documentos, Mitos e Concepções dos Alanos no Ocidente Ibérico.

Portugal e por consequência boa parte do Brasil apresentam múltiplas raízes existenciais, culturais e genéticas. Há vários Portugais e vários Brasis, unos e diversos. Nós temos um Portugal Celta, um Portugal Romano, um Portugal Suevo, um Portugal
www.academia.edu
Click to expand...
Name of Brazil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Brazil

The island of Brasil

While the brazilwood root of Brazil is generally accepted, it has been occasionally challenged. Among the alternative hypotheses is that it is named after the legendary island of Brasil.[17] Many 14th-century nautical maps denoted a phantom island called insula brasil in the north Atlantic Ocean, usually circular in shape and located just southwest of Ireland. Although its source is uncertain, it is sometimes believed this brasil stems from Celtic word bress, which means "to bless", and that the island was named Hy-Brasil, or "Island of the Blessed".[17] Such an island might have been spoken of in legendary old Irish immrama, then filtered into seafarer's tales, before being incorporated into maps by Italian cartographers, beginning with the 1325-30 portolan chart of Angelino Dalorto.[18]
Click to expand...

About Brasil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasil_(mythical_island)

In Irish tradition it is said to come from the Irish Uí Breasail (meaning 'descendants/clan of Bresail'), a minor Gaelic clan of northeastern Ireland.
Click to expand...

Compare the ancient Gilaki land of Barezil in the southwest of Caspian sea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barezil
 
Moja said:
It really doesn't matter what they say because Linear Elamite inscriptions have been read and we already know that Indo-Iranians definitely lived in the south of Iran in the 3rd millennium BC, several centuries before the formation of Andronovo and Sintashta cultures.

The great book of Dr. Stanislav Grigoriev about the Origin and migrations of the Indo-Aryans was also published recently: https://www.researchgate.net/public...riev_Origin_and_migrations_of_the_Indo-Aryans
Click to expand...
Could you develop about Linear Elamite writings and the link with the presence of Iranians speakers in Iran of the time? Thanks beforehand.
Moja said:
It really doesn't matter what they say because Linear Elamite inscriptions have been read and we already know that Indo-Iranians definitely lived in the south of Iran in the 3rd millennium BC, several centuries before the formation of Andronovo and Sintashta cultures.

View attachment 17698

View attachment 17699
Click to expand...
interesting phonetic similarities but we have to be cautious as always;
we have to try to compare historical phonetic evolutions of dialects, and if two people names can be compared in fine, we have to appreciate the implication of these similarities and their depths in time, because an ancient common IE origin can explain these similarities without ore specific and more recent ties between them. Same thing for Veniti in Europe... I think that somebody who finds deeply could find a lot more of similarities between same family languages and even between languages of more diverse origins.
Moja said:
The main problem is that it is generally believed that Iran was just the land of Elamites and Iranian-speaking people but this country was actually the land of Indo-Europeans.

For example we know Geneva in Switzerland and Genoa/Genova in Italy has the same Indo-European origin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva

"The city was mentioned in Latin texts, by Caesar, with the spelling Genava,[26] probably from the Celtic *genawa- from the stem *genu- ("mouth"), in the sense of an estuary, an etymology shared with the Italian port city of Genoa (in Italian Genova).[27][28]"

What about the ancient port city of Genava in Iran? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar_Ganaveh (in Iranian language it should be Zanua)

Or we know the names of Celtic Brigantes and Germanic Burgundi tribes have the same Indo-European origin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes

What about Birgandi people in Iran? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birjand (in Iranian language it should be Berezaiti)

Or we know the names Italic Samnites and Germanic Semnones tribes have the same Indo-European origin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samnites

What about Semnani people in Iran? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnani_people (in Iranian language it should be Hamnana)

The name of Germani people was first mentioned by Herodotus as an ancient people in Iran, the name of Gaeli people was first mentioned by Pliny as ancient people in Iran, ...
Click to expand...
I 'll answer you later, but just this: the 'Gael-' name come from < 'Goidel-' or something very close. Concerning Burgund- and Brigant- I doubt highly of a direct etymologic link.
 
MOESAN said:
I 'll answer you later, but just this: the 'Gael-' name come from < 'Goidel-' or something very close. Concerning Burgund- and Brigant- I doubt highly of a direct etymologic link.
Click to expand...

Goídel Glas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goídel_Glas "In medieval Irish and Scottish legend, Goídel Glas (Old Irish: [ˈɡoːi̯ðʲel ɡlas]; Latinised as Gaithelus) is the creator of the Goidelic languages and eponymous ancestor of the Gaels. The narrative in the Lebor Gabála Érenn is a legendary account of the origin of the Gaels as the descendants of the Scythian prince Fénius Farsaid, one of seventy-two chieftains who built the Tower of Babel."

The tower of Babel was in Mesopotamia in the west of Iran, Goídel: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Goídel#Old_Irish from Proto-Indo-European *h₁weydʰh₁- (“wood, wilderness”) and Glas: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/glas#Old_Irish from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰelh₃- (“green, yellow”)

Gelae: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelae_(tribe) "The Gelae (Ancient Greek: Γῆλαι,[1] Γέλαι,[2] or Γέλοι,[3] Gélai or Géloi ), or Gelians, were a Scythian tribe mentioned by Strabo and other ancient writers as living on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea. Strabo's second account of the Gelae, mentions them among the tribes of the southern Caspian which included the Cadusii, Amardi, Witii, and Anariacae."
 
Moja said:
Goídel Glas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goídel_Glas "In medieval Irish and Scottish legend, Goídel Glas (Old Irish: [ˈɡoːi̯ðʲel ɡlas]; Latinised as Gaithelus) is the creator of the Goidelic languages and eponymous ancestor of the Gaels. The narrative in the Lebor Gabála Érenn is a legendary account of the origin of the Gaels as the descendants of the Scythian prince Fénius Farsaid, one of seventy-two chieftains who built the Tower of Babel."

The tower of Babel was in Mesopotamia in the west of Iran, Goídel: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Goídel#Old_Irish from Proto-Indo-European *h₁weydʰh₁- (“wood, wilderness”) and Glas: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/glas#Old_Irish from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰelh₃- (“green, yellow”)

Gelae: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelae_(tribe) "The Gelae (Ancient Greek: Γῆλαι,[1] Γέλαι,[2] or Γέλοι,[3] Gélai or Géloi ), or Gelians, were a Scythian tribe mentioned by Strabo and other ancient writers as living on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea. Strabo's second account of the Gelae, mentions them among the tribes of the southern Caspian which included the Cadusii, Amardi, Witii, and Anariacae."
Click to expand...

Don't think I'm trying to tackle every of your tries, just I think in some opposite interpretations for some of your arguments.

The similarities between words and names have to be taken with caution for more than a cause :

we have to take in account the chronology (time of the writings appearances), and the specific historic phonetic evolutions of every “son” language or dialect when we think in a common more or less ancient origin.

Plus, the presence of supposed results of the evolution of a common word or name in geographically remote places and cultures does not prove this common « root » was born in one of these places where we suppose we find their reflects or descendants. So these similarities between far western Europe names of people/places/tribes and Iranian people/places/tribes names even in ancient times – based on common IE origin, if real – does not prove in any case that IE or rather proto-IE language was spoken at first in Iran.

&: Concerning supposed etymologies of the ‘Burgund(ian)’ name, I recall that at least, the breaking of the retained name is *bur-gund- and not *burg-und- if I look at the names born by the Burgundian chiefs or rulers: Gundomar / Gunther (<Gund-hari) / Gunderic / Gundobad / Gundimar “Godomar” / Guntram (<Gund-hramn) + female name Radegonde (<? Rad-Gund?).

I 'll see other names (if I find something to say). Good sunday.
 
MOESAN said:
Don't think I'm trying to tackle every of your tries, just I think in some opposite interpretations for some of your arguments.

The similarities between words and names have to be taken with caution for more than a cause :

we have to take in account the chronology (time of the writings appearances), and the specific historic phonetic evolutions of every “son” language or dialect when we think in a common more or less ancient origin.

Plus, the presence of supposed results of the evolution of a common word or name in geographically remote places and cultures does not prove this common « root » was born in one of these places where we suppose we find their reflects or descendants. So these similarities between far western Europe names of people/places/tribes and Iranian people/places/tribes names even in ancient times – based on common IE origin, if real – does not prove in any case that IE or rather proto-IE language was spoken at first in Iran.

&: Concerning supposed etymologies of the ‘Burgund(ian)’ name, I recall that at least, the breaking of the retained name is *bur-gund- and not *burg-und- if I look at the names born by the Burgundian chiefs or rulers: Gundomar / Gunther (<Gund-hari) / Gunderic / Gundobad / Gundimar “Godomar” / Guntram (<Gund-hramn) + female name Radegonde (<? Rad-Gund?).

I 'll see other names (if I find something to say). Good sunday.
Click to expand...
Etymology of Celtic Brigantes, Germanic Burgundī and Iranian Berezaiti (without mentioning Bergand in Iran): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes

"The name Brigantes (Βρίγαντες in Ancient Greek) shares the same Proto-Celtic root as the goddess Brigantia, *brigantī, brigant- meaning 'high, elevated', and it is unclear whether settlements called Brigantium were so named as 'high ones' in a metaphorical sense of nobility, or literally as 'highlanders', or inhabitants of physically elevated fortifications. The reconstructed Proto-Indo-European root is *bʰerǵʰ-.[3] The word is related to Germanic *Burgund, Burgundī and Iranian Alborz (Old Iranian Hara Berezaiti)."

Proto-Indo-European bʰérǵʰs "something high up, fortified": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰérǵʰs

There are Proto-Celtic *brigā, Proto-Germanic *burgz and Avestan bərəzō/Oseetian barz but why in Luri and some other languages in Iran there is berg, similar to Proto-Indo-European bʰerǵʰ?
 
Last edited:
Moja said:
Etymology of Celtic Brigantes, Germanic Burgundī and Iranian Berezaiti (without mentioning Bergand in Iran): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes

"The name Brigantes (Βρίγαντες in Ancient Greek) shares the same Proto-Celtic root as the goddess Brigantia, *brigantī, brigant- meaning 'high, elevated', and it is unclear whether settlements called Brigantium were so named as 'high ones' in a metaphorical sense of nobility, or literally as 'highlanders', or inhabitants of physically elevated fortifications. The reconstructed Proto-Indo-European root is *bʰerǵʰ-.[3] The word is related to Germanic *Burgund, Burgundī and Iranian Alborz (Old Iranian Hara Berezaiti)."

Proto-Indo-European bʰérǵʰs "something high up, fortified": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰérǵʰs

There are Proto-Celtic *brigā, Proto-Germanic *burgz and Avestan bərəzō/Oseetian barz but why in Luri and some other languages in Iran there is berg, similar to Proto-Indo-European bʰerǵʰ?
Click to expand...
etymologies are not always reliable - I don't know where Wikipedia found the link between the IE well knowed concerned root - I found in it a link to a Pokorny Indogermanic roots book but I don't know if this affirmation comes from this book - if Burgund- has some link with the IE root it ought to be analysed as kind of **burg(h)/gund- ; I have not the qualification to say if it is right or possible concerning historic phonetic evolution of Germanic -
I think we can link the Slavic breg : brjag (more or less high bank of river or water) to the IE root -
That said, even if these correlations you evok are right, the question of the language having provided the involved (P)IE root and its localisation remains still there...
 
Moja said:
Etymology of Celtic Brigantes, Germanic Burgundī and Iranian Berezaiti (without mentioning Bergand in Iran): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes

"The name Brigantes (Βρίγαντες in Ancient Greek) shares the same Proto-Celtic root as the goddess Brigantia, *brigantī, brigant- meaning 'high, elevated', and it is unclear whether settlements called Brigantium were so named as 'high ones' in a metaphorical sense of nobility, or literally as 'highlanders', or inhabitants of physically elevated fortifications. The reconstructed Proto-Indo-European root is *bʰerǵʰ-.[3] The word is related to Germanic *Burgund, Burgundī and Iranian Alborz (Old Iranian Hara Berezaiti)."

Proto-Indo-European bʰérǵʰs "something high up, fortified": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰérǵʰs

There are Proto-Celtic *brigā, Proto-Germanic *burgz and Avestan bərəzō/Oseetian barz but why in Luri and some other languages in Iran there is berg, similar to Proto-Indo-European bʰerǵʰ?
Click to expand...
etymologies are not always reliable - I don't know where Wikipedia found the link between the IE well knowed concerned root - I found in it a link to a Pokorny Indogermanic roots book but I don't know if this affirmation comes from this book - if Burgund- has some link with the IE root it ought to be analysed as kind of **burg(h)/gund- ; I have not the qualification to say if it is right or possible concerning historic phonetic evolution of Germanic -
I think we can link the Slavic breg : brjag (more or less high bank of river or water) to the IE root -
That said, even if these correlations you evok are right, the question of the language having provided the involved (P)IE root and its localisation remains still there...
 
Benedetti.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top