Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[Angela]

If the leaked early Slav samples are like Poles and Ukrainians, that could vindicate the Greek Peloponnese study that was ripped for assuming invading Slavs were northern-like and not heavily Balkan-admixed. Maybe using Balkan Slavic samples would have given the opposite and incorrect impression that invading medieval Slavs were already Balkan-like.

One of the pillars of Greek replacement theory is Anatolians were settled in the Peloponnese after the Slavic settlements, to replace the original Greeks. The Peloponnese study also appears to refute that. Macedonia has a different settlement history, when it comes to Anatolia.

Exactly so. That was a good paper; the only reason some people had a problem with it was because it shredded their propaganda.

The Greek Replacement theory is going to go the way of the Out of India theory.

There should be no place for politics and ethnic t-rolling in population genetics.

 

[Trojet]

You welcome
You have -11 j2b in future bronze/ iron age
Southern britain
Dna paper
I count on altverd from anthrogenica

We should wait until the actual paper is published and see where the samples come from, along with other details.

In this yet to be published British aDNA paper, it appears they used samples from different regions as references, so to better model genetic ancestries and migrations, because we know that one J2b-L283 actually comes from Iron Age Slovenia. And so it may be that all J2b-L283s or even E-V13s reported here come from "Central or Southeastern Europe".

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a rare J2b-L283 in the British Isles since the BA, but definitely not in any meaningful amount.

 

[D.L.M]

If the leaked early Slav samples are like Poles and Ukrainians, that could vindicate the Greek Peloponnese study that was ripped for assuming invading Slavs were northern-like and not heavily Balkan-admixed. Maybe using Balkan Slavic samples would have given the opposite and incorrect impression that invading medieval Slavs were already Balkan-like.

One of the pillars of Greek replacement theory is Anatolians were settled in the Peloponnese after the Slavic settlements, to replace the original Greeks. The Peloponnese study also appears to refute that. Macedonia has a different settlement history, when it comes to Anatolia.

I was not talking about Slavs in Greece, I was talking about Slavs in Moravia most of them were like Poles and Slovaks but some were like Croats, Serbs and Bulgarians.

The paper only refutes that modern Peloponnesians are not essentially of Anatolian ancestry, it does not refute partial Anatolian ancestry in modern Peloponnesians. And I agree that Anatolians did not shift Peloponnesians south, at least not primarily. Historically a couple of thousands were settled but not massive numbers.

I consider anything above 50% a replacement and I was talking only about Macedonia. It could be 51% and it's still a replacement in my book.


With ancient DNA we know that Pre-historical migrations and Magna Graecia are not the only reasons why Greek islanders cluster together with South Italians. Imperial Rome also played a big role on that.
Who knows what we will discover, I am sure we will be surprised a lot.

 

[bigsnake49]

I was not talking about Slavs in Greece, I was talking about Slavs in Moravia most of them were like Poles and Slovaks but some were like Croats, Serbs and Bulgarians.

The paper only refutes that modern Peloponnesians are not essentially of Anatolian ancestry, it does not refute partial Anatolian ancestry in modern Peloponnesians. And I agree that Anatolians did not shift Peloponnesians south, at least not primarily. Historically a couple of thousands were settled but not massive numbers.

I consider anything above 50% a replacement and I was talking only about Macedonia. It could be 51% and it's still a replacement in my book.


With ancient DNA we know that Pre-historical migrations and Magna Graecia are not the only reasons why Greek islanders cluster together with South Italians. Imperial Rome also played a big role on that.
Who knows what we will discover, I am sure we will be surprised a lot.

Are talking about the replacement of Muslims in Macedonia with Asia Minor Greeks during the Population Exchange with Turkey in 1922? Or replacement by the Slavs? If it is replacement by the Slavs all you have to do is ascertain that the grandfathers on both sides did not come from Asia Minor.

 

[D.L.M]

Are talking about the replacement of Muslims in Macedonia with Asia Minor Greeks during the Population Exchange with Turkey in 1922? Or replacement by the Slavs? If it is replacement by the Slavs all you have to do is ascertain that the grandfathers on both sides did not come from Asia Minor.

Slavs (and other invaders that made it) and some Anatolians in the Middle Ages and Imperial Rome.

 

[Dianatomia]

Christians Albanian are just as much northern shifted as Muslims one.
For Albanians I have said it before that original Albanians ancestors were probably more northern shifted compared to Roman Thraco-Macedonians in particular.

As for Slavic admixture there is a new study coming up that promises a great deal of Slavic admixture in Macedonia. Don't be surprised if the bulk of Imperial Era Greco-Thracians of Northern Greece (more than 50%) were replaced due to Late Antiquity Barbarian input (mostly Slavic) and some Anatolians that settled in there.

For starters almost half of the Greeks in Macedonia hail from Asia Minor due to the population exchanges. So there is more than 50% popopulation replacement to begin with. So I wonder wether people who estimate that Greek Macedonians have 40 % Slavic ancestry or something of the sort, actually realise that they are insinuating that Greek Macedonians were 80% Slav prior to the population exchanges. And 50% Slav means that the Greeks of Macedonia are pure Slavs.

That said, overall the Greeks of Asia Minor must have brought a lot of old genes back to Macedonia.

 

[D.L.M]

For starters almost half of the Greeks in Macedonia hail from Asia Minor due to the population exchanges. So there is more than 50% popopulation replacement to begin with. So I wonder wether people who estimate that Greek Macedonians have 40 % Slavic ancestry or something of the sort, actually realise that they are insinuating that Greek Macedonians were 80% Slav prior to the population exchanges. And 50% Slav means that the Greeks of Macedonia are pure Slavs.

That said, overall the Greeks of Asia Minor must have brought a lot of old genes back to Macedonia.

No I was talking about indigenous Greek Macedonians. Some Anatolians settled there during the Antiquity and Middle Ages. Davidski has seen many Anatolian-like outliers in the Roman and/or the Hellenistic period in the upcoming paper.

There is a good change that during 1CE to 1000CE the bulk of population was replaced with Slavs, Anatolians and Goths combined together.

 

[bigsnake49]

No I was talking about indigenous Greek Macedonians. Some Anatolians settled there during the Antiquity and Middle Ages. Davidski has seen many Anatolian-like outliers in the Roman and/or the Hellenistic period in the upcoming paper.

There is a good change that during 1CE to 1000CE the bulk of population was replaced with Slavs, Anatolians and Goths combined together.

There are no documented major population movements by Anatolians in Macedonia prior to the exchange of populations. There is a document migration of Greeks from East Rumelia prior to the Balkan wars because of attacks by irregular Bulgarian units. There are also no genetic traces left behind by the Goths in Macedonia. There are documented movements of Slavs into Greece.

We have no information on whether the Y-DNA distribution of the slavic haplogroups are from mixed ancestry of Anatolian Greeks & locals or just locals.

 

[D.L.M]

Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.

"Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. Book
7, ch. 7, frg. 1.''

Strabo spoke lot of gibberish so I wont take it for granted.

 

[Dianatomia]

There is a good change that during 1CE to 1000CE the bulk of population was replaced with Slavs, Anatolians and Goths combined together.

I think a replacement is unlikely, given that the second capital of the Eastern Roman Empire was in Macedonia (Thessalonica). In medieval times it would have been very hard for migrants to replace populations which lived in metropolitan centers. But there certainly has been intermixing in Macedonia. Do not underestimate 1000 CE to 1900 CE where during the Ottoman Empire, for example, many Slavs went due South towards the Aegean. But South of the city of Thessalonica far less Slavs have been recorded historically.

On that note, I think the area of Northern Greece had more Steppe admixture than the South of Greece to begin with. So unless we have ancient DNA of the Hellenistic or early Roman era, there will be many papers which overrate the Slavic admixture. I believe.

 

[D.L.M]

I think a replacement is unlikely, given that the second capital of the Eastern Roman Empire was in Macedonia (Thessalonica). In medieval times it would have been very hard for migrants to replace populations which lived in metropolitan centers. But there certainly has been intermixing in Macedonia. Do not underestimate 1000 CE to 1900 CE where during the Ottoman Empire, for example, many Slavs went due South towards the Aegean. But South of the city of Thessalonica far less Slavs have been recorded historically.

On that note, I think the area of Northern Greece had more Steppe admixture than the South of Greece to begin with. So unless we have ancient DNA of the Hellenistic or early Roman era, there will be many papers which overrate the Slavic admixture. I believe.

Thessaloniki was a Metropolitan Centre that probably attracted many Anatolians, Anatolia to Eastern Roman Empire was like Italy to Western Roman Empire. The Macedonians of G25 are from an official paper. They all have their grandparents, Macedonians, prior to population exchange. Modern Macedonians are roughly 33% shifted towards Poles compared to BGR_IA. And many late Roman Period samples plot close and even south of BGR_IA. Considering neither the Slavs nor the Goths were pure Northern European, I don't know why a 50-55% replacement theory involving Slavs and Anatolians is so unlikely.

 

[kingdavid]

We should wait until the actual paper is published and see where the samples come from, along with other details.
In this yet to be published British aDNA paper, it appears they used samples from different regions as references, so to better model genetic ancestries and migrations, because we know that one J2b-L283 actually comes from Iron Age Slovenia. And so it may be that all J2b-L283s or even E-V13s reported here come from "Central or Southeastern Europe".
Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a rare J2b-L283 in the British Isles since the BA, but definitely not in any meaningful amount.

Summery of ancient dna y haplogroups
Of illyrians and daunians ( by richard rocca from anthrogenica )
Intetesting that he dont speak on e-v13
But up untill now not found in those ancient populations remains


Moreso than Celts, Italics, etc. there has never been a general consensus on the possible genetic Y-DNA makeup of the Iron Age Illyrians. Between the pre-print on the Daunians and some Iron Age Slovenian samples that will be published soon by Patterson et al., it looks like they were overwhelmingly a heavily a mix of R1b/I2/J2b:

Illyrians:
I5689: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) I2a1b1a1b1a1a
I5690: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
I5691: Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto, Slovenia_IA (787-544 BC) J2b2a1a1a
I5696: Obrežje, Slovenia_IA (401-208 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
(I do realize this may also be a mix of Venetics or even Celts here with the L2 samples)

Daunians:
ORD011: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (650 - 625 BC) R1b-P312
ORD006: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (770-476 calBCE) R1b-M269
SGR002: San Giovanni Rotondo (591-415 calBCE) R1b-M269+Z2013+
SAL001: Salapia (1235-1048 calBCE) J2b-M241
SAL010: Salapia (9th-3rd c. BC) J2b-M241
ORD014: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (570-408 calBCE) J2b2-L283
ORD019: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (5th c. BC) I2d-Z2093/Y3670
SAL011: Salapia (313-206 calBCE) I2d-M223

The same mix of R1b/I2/J2b was also found in the Maros Culture samples from Mokrin, Serbia dated to 2100–1800 cal BC:

Serbia EBA
122E: I2a1b
163: J2b
211: I2a1b
220: R1b1a2a2c1
225: R1b1a2a2c1
243: BT (low quality)
257: R1b1a2a2c1a1
260: I2a2a1a2a2
282: BT (low quality)
295: I2a1a

 

[D.L.M]

https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/co...wer-danube-expanding-with-haplogroup-e1b-v13/

* Iberian samples of the Visigothic period in Spain show up to 25% E1b-V13 samples, with a mixture of haplogroups including local and foreign lineages, as well as some more E1b-V13 samples later during the Muslim period. Out of the two E1b samples from Longobards in Amorim et al. (2018), only SZ18 from Szólád (ca. AD 412-604) is within E1b-V13, in a very specific early branch (SNP M35.2), further locating the expansion of hg. E1b-V13 near the Danube. Samples of haplogroup J (maybe J2a) or G2a among Germanic tribes (and possibly in Poland’s Roman Iron Age / Early Middle Ages) are impossible to compare with early Hungarian ones without precise subclades.

"Y-chromosome haplogroups are, in those cases, useful for ascertaining a more recent origin of the population. Like the finding of certain R1a-Z645, I2a-L621 & N-L392 lineages among Hungarians shows a recent origin near the Trans-Urals forest-steppes, or the finding of I1, R1b-U106 & E1b-V13 among Visigoths shows a recent origin near the Danube, the finding of Early Slavs (ca. AD 6th-7th c.) originally with small elite groups of hg. R1a-M458 & E1b-V13 from the Lower/Middle Danube – if strengthened with more Early Slavic samples, with Slavonic partially expanding as a lingua franca in some regions – is not necessarily representative of the Proto-Slavic community, just as it is clearly not representative of the later expansion of Slavic dialects."

Riverman which study shows E-V13 in 6th century Slavs?

 

[torzio]

Summery of ancient dna y haplogroups
Of illyrians and daunians ( by richard rocca from anthrogenica )
Intetesting that he dont speak on e-v13
But up untill now not found in those ancient populations remains

Moreso than Celts, Italics, etc. there has never been a general consensus on the possible genetic Y-DNA makeup of the Iron Age Illyrians. Between the pre-print on the Daunians and some Iron Age Slovenian samples that will be published soon by Patterson et al., it looks like they were overwhelmingly a heavily a mix of R1b/I2/J2b:
Illyrians:
I5689: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) I2a1b1a1b1a1a
I5690: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
I5691: Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto, Slovenia_IA (787-544 BC) J2b2a1a1a
I5696: Obrežje, Slovenia_IA (401-208 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
(I do realize this may also be a mix of Venetics or even Celts here with the L2 samples)
Daunians:
ORD011: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (650 - 625 BC) R1b-P312
ORD006: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (770-476 calBCE) R1b-M269
SGR002: San Giovanni Rotondo (591-415 calBCE) R1b-M269+Z2013+
SAL001: Salapia (1235-1048 calBCE) J2b-M241
SAL010: Salapia (9th-3rd c. BC) J2b-M241
ORD014: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (570-408 calBCE) J2b2-L283
ORD019: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (5th c. BC) I2d-Z2093/Y3670
SAL011: Salapia (313-206 calBCE) I2d-M223
The same mix of R1b/I2/J2b was also found in the Maros Culture samples from Mokrin, Serbia dated to 2100–1800 cal BC:
Serbia EBA
122E: I2a1b
163: J2b
211: I2a1b
220: R1b1a2a2c1
225: R1b1a2a2c1
243: BT (low quality)
257: R1b1a2a2c1a1
260: I2a2a1a2a2
282: BT (low quality)
295: I2a1a

what about the earlier G2a in the same area as per the August 2021 paper

Freilich et al. (2021) analysed seven samples from the Middle Neolithic Sopot culture in northeastern Croatia, three of which belonged to G2a (two G-PF3147 and one G-U1>L13>Z2022).

south of the slovenian samples you noted

 

[Angela]

For starters almost half of the Greeks in Macedonia hail from Asia Minor due to the population exchanges. So there is more than 50% popopulation replacement to begin with. So I wonder wether people who estimate that Greek Macedonians have 40 % Slavic ancestry or something of the sort, actually realise that they are insinuating that Greek Macedonians were 80% Slav prior to the population exchanges. And 50% Slav means that the Greeks of Macedonia are pure Slavs.

That said, overall the Greeks of Asia Minor must have brought a lot of old genes back to Macedonia.

If you're talking about the paper by the Greek scientist about the Peloponnese, the people were very carefully sampled so that ONLY those elderly people with all four grandparents born before the exchange were included, so there would be no effect of Greeks brought from Asia Minor in the population exchange.

You'd have to go back and check what the study parameters were for the Macedonia/Thessaly area.

 

[kingdavid]

what about the earlier G2a in the same area as per the August 2021 paper
Freilich et al. (2021) analysed seven samples from the Middle Neolithic Sopot culture in northeastern Croatia, three of which belonged to G2a (two G-PF3147 and one G-U1>L13>Z2022).
south of the slovenian samples you noted

Isn't G2 more neolithic farmers signiture
Rather than illyrians which came thousand
Year later ...
But i agree it can also be present among them to some extent
you should mention it to richard rocca
I am not a member in anthrogenica banned years ago i just found a way to look at the site
In translated form so if i see interesting posts
Or new dna papers from there i post here in eupedia great site

 

[Theotokopoulos]

Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.

Jives with the Kingdom of Vlachs and Bulgarians in North and Central Greece suddenly appearing in the early Middle Ages (10th century). I don't buy the "Vlachs are indigenous Macedonians/Greeks" line, at least not in the majority.

The Byzantines were even calling these people Dacians, in part from their desire to see demographics and geography through a Classical lens, but also from a real understanding that they had come from further north. Kekavmenos, the Armenian historian called the Vlachs "Dacia and Vesi" who were expelled from the Danube region because they were bandits. We know that they were also more widespread than they currently are in Macedonia and Thessaly, as I think they were in Chalkidiki in the 11th Century. So they likely contributed heavily to Greek and Bulgarian genepool. There are also fuzzy accounts of Vlachs being part of these "Slavic" military democracies on their original assault and settlement of Macedonia, if I am not mistaken. Problem is, we have still such a weak understanding of the genetics of the Thracians, who Herodotus, if I am not mistaken, considered the most numerous people in the world after the Indians. As said before, that Bronze Age "Thracian" looked Tuscan , did it not? We did get an R1a Thracian, but he was some Iranic (Scythian?) clade too.

 

[Hawk]

Isn't G2 more neolithic farmers signiture
Rather than illyrians which came thousand
Year later ...
But i agree it can also be present among them to some extent
you should mention it to richard rocca
I am not a member in anthrogenica banned years ago i just found a way to look at the site
In translated form so if i see interesting posts
Or new dna papers from there i post here in eupedia great site

G2a on the Croatian paper was found within the context of Encrusted Pottery Culture, so far this culture which was descended from Neolithics, have G2a in the Croatia and I2a in Hungary.

This culture on its own was different from Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian material culture. If and only if they contributed to Illyrians during Late Bronze Age, they did it in a mixed form with HugelgraberKultur.

As for Rocca, he is slightly more sophisticated version of torzio lol.

 

[Angela]

@Ihype,

Please provide data constituting proof of the following:

Originally Posted by ihype02
Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.

I thought it had been made abundantly clear that unsupported assertions would not go unchallenged here.

I'd like you, in that regard, to show me all the U-152 and U-106 and some I1 in the Peloponnese which would certainly be present if 40% of the population were of Venetian descent.

I guess I have to remind you all again that this isn't theapricity or some Albanian language site; you don't get to make up your own facts here.

 

[bigsnake49]

Jives with the Kingdom of Vlachs and Bulgarians in North and Central Greece suddenly appearing in the early Middle Ages (10th century). I don't buy the "Vlachs are indigenous Macedonians/Greeks" line, at least not in the majority.

The Byzantines were even calling these people Dacians, in part from their desire to see demographics and geography through a Classical lens, but also from a real understanding that they had come from further north. Kekavmenos, the Armenian historian called the Vlachs "Dacia and Vesi" who were expelled from the Danube region because they were bandits. We know that they were also more widespread than they currently are in Macedonia and Thessaly, as I think they were in Chalkidiki in the 11th Century. So they likely contributed heavily to Greek and Bulgarian genepool. There are also fuzzy accounts of Vlachs being part of these "Slavic" military democracies on their original assault and settlement of Macedonia, if I am not mistaken. Problem is, we have still such a weak understanding of the genetics of the Thracians, who Herodotus, if I am not mistaken, considered the most numerous people in the world after the Indians. As said before, that Bronze Age "Thracian" looked Tuscan , did it not? We did get an R1a Thracian, but he was some Iranic (Scythian?) clade too.

We need many more ancient DNA sample from the Thrace area during different eras. Remember that the Macedons before the 4th century were a rather small kingdom. They expand greatly through alliances, marriages and conquests.It helped greatly that both Sparta and Athens were very weak because of all the wars.