Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[A. Papadimitriou]

I think it's mixed Slavs, Thracians, Arvanites and some other Balkanites feeling the Barbarian inclusions.
Cretans have only 6% E-V13, which is less than Slavic R1a in Crete, which might suggest that Arvanites probably gave it a bust in Peloponnese in late Middle Ages. Bulgarians have more I2a and R1a than E-V13, so E-V13 cannot be essentially Slavic, even though it might appear only during the Middle Ages.

It is not definitely Classical Peloponnesian though, at least not mostly.

What is your source on Cretan E-V13?

 

[ihype02]

What is your source on Cretan E-V13?

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201769/figures/2
9 out of 168 is 5.4%

Another study with 193 samples put all E at 8.7%.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin


Maciamo has a total collection of +500 samples so I am missing something, but it is probably around 5-7%.

 

[Dorian9]

Good for you. So many here seem to be emotionally invested in all this.

Funny that you say that ,I've been lurking in the forum and 90% of the times I see a post of yours it has to do with Greece and I've been wondering why this guy as an Albanian is so invested in Greek stuff? are you the user laberia by any chance?kastrioti maybe?

 

[ihype02]

Funny that you say that ,I've been lurking in the forum and 90% of the times I see a post of yours it has to do with Greece and I've been wondering why this guy as an Albanian is so invested in Greek stuff? are you the user laberia by any chance?kastrioti maybe?

90% of my posts are related with Ancient Greece and to a lesser extend Slavic migration in Balkans and a bit of Italy. That is a big difference. I am not a nationalist, in fact I acknowledge that Albanians migrated in Epirus during 12th/13th century and that most J2a in Tosks came from assimilated Greeks.


Parapolitikos has been flying around saying J2b came with Gheg invasions, but when I talk about E-V13 in Peloponnese or Venetian population control I get investigated. Which are both facts.

 

[Dorian9]

90% of my posts are related with Ancient Greece and to a lesser extend Slavic migration in Balkans and a bit of Italy. That is a big difference. I am not a nationalist, in fact I acknowledge that Albanians migrated in Epirus during 12th/13th century and that most J2a in Tosks came from assimilated Greeks.


Parapolitikos has been flying around saying J2b came with Gheg invasions, but when I talk about E-V13 in Peloponnese or Venetian population control I get investigated. Which are both facts.

Ok my bad then I misunderstood you. My reply wasn't because of the haplo discussions but since you mention it I'll just say that for Cretans it seems E-V13 is on a gradient from west to east and correlates with the autosomal gradient that was mentioned in the Crete study.

(Can't post links yet ,check the eupedia thread "Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin")
there was this chart somewhere

imgur . com / OtZBAUX.png

Most likely it's the result of medieval expansions of Eastern Peloponnesians in Crete , I have no idea what is it's deeper origin and If it's wholly from Arvanites or not.

 

[Theotokopoulos]

I think it's mixed Slavs, Thracians, Arvanites and some other Balkanites feeling the Barbarian inclusions.
Cretans have only 6% E-V13, which is less than Slavic R1a in Crete, which might suggest that Arvanites probably gave it a bust in Peloponnese in late Middle Ages. Bulgarians have more I2a and R1a than E-V13, so E-V13 cannot be essentially Slavic, even though it might appear only during the Middle Ages.

It is not definitely Classical Peloponnesian though, at least not mostly.

That's possible, but why isn't there any similar proportion of j2b in the Peloponnesus? I mean, I don't know if I have ever seen any. As opposed to Greek Epirus.

 

[ihype02]

That's possible, but why isn't there any similar proportion of j2b in the Peloponnesus? I mean, I don't know if I have ever seen any. As opposed to Greek Epirus.

I said they boosted it a little bit from say (15%-20%) pre-Arvanite period to (20%-25%). Like 5 points with a bit of male bias.
There is J2b in Peloponnese like 5% from what I have seen. Tosks themselves have less of it.

 

[Theotokopoulos]

I said they boosted it a little bit from say (15%-20%) pre-Arvanite period to (20%-25%). Like 5 points with a bit of male bias.
There is J2b in Peloponnese like 5% from what I have seen. Tosks themselves have less of it.

Ah, ok. I could go along with that, at least until we find more data. I am EV-13 myself and half Peloponnesian. I assumed I might have Arvanite ancestry for years, but I have no matches with Albania or Kosovo or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter, but a lot of with Sicily, South Italy, Asia Minor, and Cyprus. I would assume there should be a lot more Greeks with matches in Albania, unless they are hiding their results, which is possible. But Greeks with clear Arvanite surnames and heritage always match nicely with Albanians.

As for Venetians, I think they have a bit more influence than people want to admit. But I can't say for sure. Many Venetians (and many 10's of thousands Albanians with them) left for Italy. But of course Venetians never left Ionian Islands, and their remnants are in other places too, like Syros, where slight majority of the population is Catholic nowadays. And the Kolokotronis family tree DNA project found the hero of Greek War of Independence was I1 and he was from the Morea. So who knows?

 

[torzio]

Ah, ok. I could go along with that, at least until we find more data. I am EV-13 myself and half Peloponnesian. I assumed I might have Arvanite ancestry for years, but I have no matches with Albania or Kosovo or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter, but a lot of with Sicily, South Italy, Asia Minor, and Cyprus. I would assume there should be a lot more Greeks with matches in Albania, unless they are hiding their results, which is possible. But Greeks with clear Arvanite surnames and heritage always match nicely with Albanians.

As for Venetians, I think they have a bit more influence than people want to admit. But I can't say for sure. Many Venetians (and many 10's of thousands Albanians with them) left for Italy. But of course Venetians never left Ionian Islands, and their remnants are in other places too, like Syros, where slight majority of the population is Catholic nowadays. And the Kolokotronis family tree DNA project found the hero of Greek War of Independence was I1 and he was from the Morea. So who knows?

The only place I see albanians in the Morea is in Argos and Corinth ............and they came from attica region in Greece

Are you referring to the albanians leaving albania for Italy in the 16th century ?

Nauplia
Key dates:
1204 The region is acquired by French families (de la Roche/Enghien).
1388 The Venetians buy the fortress.
1540 The Venetians surrender Nauplia to the Ottomans.
1686 The Venetians return to Nauplia.
1715 The Ottomans invade the region and seize the fortress.


Argos
Key dates:
1204 The region is acquired by French families (de la Roche/Enghien).
1388 The Venetians buy the fortress.
1463 The Ottomans conquer Argo.
1686 The Venetians return to Argo.
1714 The Ottomans invade the region and seize the fortress.

Corinth
Key dates:
VIth century: the Byzantines strengthen the citadel of the ancient town
1147-1150 The Normans of Roger II seize and sack the town; the Venetians help the Byzantines to regain its control
1210 The fortress is assigned to the Frank rulers of Peloponnesus
1403 The Byzantine Despots of Morea conquer the fortress with Venetian help
1458 Sultan Mehmet II conquers Corinth and the Despotate of Morea
1687-1715 The Venetians occupy Corinth ..................only time it was under Venice


Venetians stopped hiring Albanian cavalry just after the year 1500 ......................Albanians then went under the kingdom of Naples and some under the french king


There is no albanians I can see in the west ..............nor south in Maina ( mani peninsula)

 

[torzio]

The current surname of the family is Manca but the Greek surname was Ieranò. I think they settled down in Cinquefrondi in the Reggio Calabria area.

it is originally a Sardinian surname

Il cognome Manca è panitaliano, ma specifico della Sardegna e del sud Italia.

 

[Hawk]

That's possible, but why isn't there any similar proportion of j2b in the Peloponnesus? I mean, I don't know if I have ever seen any. As opposed to Greek Epirus.

So you don't get confused in the future, it's not that the dude is Albanian nationalist, it has more to do with making E-V13 a Middle Age phenomena which some non E-V13 Albanians are heavily promoting, of course disfavoring this Y-DNA (on their own worldview).

 

[kingjohn]

trojet
you might have a point
that part of those j2b might be from
other places than britain
same can apply for the 3-4 e-v13 cases



I can't say I expected this, but huge discovery nevertheless. We still don't know for sure from when and where are these two samples, but judging by these results my bet would be Hallstatt & Slovenia (or somewhere very near Slovenia). Y86930 TMRCA is ~800 BC!


I23911; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (3G)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (5T); Z38240- C>T (4C)

Z38241 level: *no calls*

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (4T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)





I24638; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (5G); CTS9215+ C>T (4T-2C)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (7T); Z38240- C>T (2C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (5C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (5T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)




I24882; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930 (xFT115799)

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (7G); CTS9215+ C>T (2T)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (9T); Z38240- C>T (5C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (4C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (9T)

FT115799 level: FT115799- C>A (1C)

 

[ihype02]

So you don't get confused in the future, it's not that the dude is Albanian nationalist, it has more to do with making E-V13 a Middle Age phenomena which some non E-V13 Albanians are heavily promoting, of course disfavoring this Y-DNA (on their own worldview).

Thracians were enriched with E-V13. But it has already been found in Slavs and Goths, with such a small amount of samples. I smell something burning. Let's wait and see. There is other evidence but I will keep them to myself until I see more samples.

 

[Hawk]

Thracians were enriched with E-V13. But it has already been found in Slavs and Goths, with such a small amount of samples. I smell something burning. Let's wait and see. There is other evidence but I will keep them to myself until I see more samples.

We eliminated E-V13 from Mokrin, but one of the samples was actually E-L241.

*According to rumours*

E-CTS1273 I18832 0.0293957 HRV_Pop_CA
E-V13 I14465 0.03366259 HUN_MBA_Vatya
E-Y142743 I18527 0.02445165 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
E-Z1057 I16272 0.02587514 CZE_Unetice_EBA

And, also likely Chalcolithic Croatia. So, before EBA they pushed North just as archeological records indicat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_culture

So, Cardium Pottery Culture => Butmir => Vucedol => Hatvan/Nagyrev/Vatya/Nyirseg (along the ranges) and related North-East Hungarian/Slovakian/Romanian border cultures which subsequently centuries later participated on forming Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures.


Based on space/time restrictions, and knowing the Spanish Cardial Neolithic was positive for E-V13, i doubt E-V13 formed from Cucuteni-Tripolye. It wouldn't make sense to me.

 

[ihype02]

We eliminated E-V13 from Mokrin, but one of the samples was actually E-L241.

*According to rumours*



And, also likely Chalcolithic Croatia. So, before EBA they pushed North just as archeological records indicat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_culture

So, Cardium Pottery Culture => Butmir => Vucedol => Hatvan/Nagyrev/Vatya/Nyirseg (along the ranges) and related North-East Hungarian/Slovakian/Romanian border cultures which subsequently centuries later participated on forming Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures.

So even Thracians were not enriched with it?

 

[Hawk]

So even Thracians were not enriched with it?

For Thracians it's a no-brainer. Viminacium samples although they came from all Balkan regions are attestations for that, but that's not the whole story for sure.

 

[kingjohn]

We eliminated E-V13 from Mokrin, but one of the samples was actually E-L241.

*According to rumours*



And, also likely Chalcolithic Croatia. So, before EBA they pushed North just as archeological records indicat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_culture

So, Cardium Pottery Culture => Butmir => Vucedol => Hatvan/Nagyrev and related North-East Hungarian/Slovakian/Romanian border cultures which subsequently centuries later participated on forming Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures.

Based on space/time restrictions, and knowing the Spanish Cardial Neolithic was positive for E-V13, i doubt E-V13 formed from Cucuteni-Tripolye. It wouldn't make sense to me.

E-CTS1273 I18832 0.0293957 HRV_Pop_CA
E-V13 I14465 0.03366259 HUN_MBA_Vatya
E-Y142743 I18527 0.02445165 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
E-Z1057 I16272 0.02587514 CZE_Unetice_EBA


p.s
if true it is extremely cool and more logic that
those remains from other places other than britain

 

[ihype02]

Ah, ok. I could go along with that, at least until we find more data. I am EV-13 myself and half Peloponnesian. I assumed I might have Arvanite ancestry for years, but I have no matches with Albania or Kosovo or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter, but a lot of with Sicily, South Italy, Asia Minor, and Cyprus. I would assume there should be a lot more Greeks with matches in Albania, unless they are hiding their results, which is possible. But Greeks with clear Arvanite surnames and heritage always match nicely with Albanians.

As for Venetians, I think they have a bit more influence than people want to admit. But I can't say for sure. Many Venetians (and many 10's of thousands Albanians with them) left for Italy. But of course Venetians never left Ionian Islands, and their remnants are in other places too, like Syros, where slight majority of the population is Catholic nowadays. And the Kolokotronis family tree DNA project found the hero of Greek War of Independence was I1 and he was from the Morea. So who knows?

I don't think E-V13 is essentially Arvanite. I never said so.

Arvanites from Methoni and Coroni left for South Italy. They were around 3000-4000.
Many or probably most Arvanites were brought by Byzantines:
[FONT=&quot]“Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”


[/FONT]

 

[ihype02]

For Thracians it's a no-brainer. Viminacium samples although they came from all Balkan regions are attestations for that, but that's not the whole story for sure.

Of course it was so stupid of me. I did not think of it.

 

[Hawk]

E-CTS1273 I18832 0.0293957 HRV_Pop_CA
E-V13 I14465 0.03366259 HUN_MBA_Vatya
E-Y142743 I18527 0.02445165 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
E-Z1057 I16272 0.02587514 CZE_Unetice_EBA


p.s
if true it is extremely cool and more logic that
those remains from other places other than britain

I guess we can safely assume that E-V13 arose within Danubian Urnfield Culture who practiced cremations on urns and sometimes inhumations. I would expect some spinoffs like this:

Though the TMRCA age of subclade with Mokrin site age doesn't match, so it might be just an error.

E-Y142743 I18527 0.02445165 SRB_Mokrin_EBA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y142743/