Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[kingdavid]

Pribislav :
It's been confirmed ~15 samples will be from Slovenia and ~20 from Croatia. So most of those J2b2a samples should be from Croatia (Liburnians? Iapydes? Delmatae?).

 

[Southpaw]

Pribislav :
It's been confirmed ~15 samples will be from Slovenia and ~20 from Croatia. So most of those J2b2a samples should be from Croatia (Liburnians? Iapydes? Delmatae?).

From the distances the J2b2 samples have affinities with Adriatic on the other side, so it makes sense they are from there, Eastern Adriatic, Illyrian tribes from Dalmatia.

The R1b-Z2103 samples, some of them look too Steppe to be from LBA/EIA context, i wonder where the E-V13 samples are from.

Meantime, this paper is waiting in pipeline, eastara posted: The genetic history of the Southern Arc: a bridge between West Asia and Europe. The E-V13 Psenichevo during EIA will be published, also the Albanian DNA results as well apparently (J2b2-L283 and R1b-PF7562 rumoured during EBA/MBA), i wonder if E-V13 appears in Albania during LBA/EIA transition. Let's see.

 

[torzio]

Pribislav :
It's been confirmed ~15 samples will be from Slovenia and ~20 from Croatia. So most of those J2b2a samples should be from Croatia (Liburnians? Iapydes? Delmatae?).

most likely Histrians as well ( istria )

One link with people is the Amber trade from the baltic sea

from West-Balt (not Slavic )people to

Celts in modern Czech lands

to

Illyrians ( around Vienna )

to

Venetic

to

Liburnians

a trade with Egytians around Dalmatia/Liburnia area


this is what scholars have always stated


The other Amber trade route started around southern Denmark and moved towards the Alps

 

[kingdavid]

From the distances the J2b2 samples have affinities with Adriatic on the other side, so it makes sense they are from there, Eastern Adriatic, Illyrian tribes from Dalmatia.

The R1b-Z2103 samples, some of them look too Steppe to be from LBA/EIA context, i wonder where the E-V13 samples are from.

Meantime, this paper is waiting in pipeline, eastara posted: The genetic history of the Southern Arc: a bridge between West Asia and Europe. The E-V13 Psenichevo during EIA will be published, also the Albanian DNA results as well apparently (J2b2-L283 and R1b-PF7562 rumoured during EBA/MBA), i wonder if E-V13 appears in Albania during LBA/EIA transition. Let's see.

here is interesting map i found of sites in neolithic/ bronze age bulgaria
( though i don't know how much it relevant to e-v13)

Map showing the locations of major jar burial sites (Neolithic/Early Bronze Age) in Southeast Europe.
1 Tell Yunatsite;
2 Nova Zagora;
3 Tell Ezero;
4 Tell Karanovo;
5 Tell Kran (after Bacvarov 2008).

tell kran data will be in this future arc paper you spoke about thats from eastera words

 

[Southpaw]

here is interesting map i found of sites in neolithic/ bronze age bulgaria
( though i don't know how much it relevant to e-v13)

Map showing the locations of major jar burial sites (Neolithic/Early Bronze Age) in Southeast Europe.
1 Tell Yunatsite;
2 Nova Zagora;
3 Tell Ezero;
4 Tell Karanovo;
5 Tell Kran (after Bacvarov 2008).

tell kran data will be in this future arc paper you spoke about thats from eastera words

We already know Late Neolithic samples from Bulgaria though, and all of them are G2a. Then R1b appears in Chalcolithic.

That single E-V13 sample which has a lot of Barcin and some Yamnaya makes me think E-V13 really lived in Balkans during Chalcolithic (Either Chalcolithic Croatia/Serbia/Bosnia, somewhere here) then moved up North during EBA to integrate and participate into the formation of latter Middle-Danube Urnfield groups. Some of them more some of them less so.

Just like i mentioned before Cardials moved up in Bosnia, participating in creating Butmir Culture then Butmir participated on forming Vucedol then Vucedol participated on creating Nagyrev and related North-East Hungarian EBA Cultures. Let's see how things work out.

 

[Riverman]

We already know Late Neolithic samples from Bulgaria though, and all of them are G2a. Then R1b appears in Chalcolithic.

That single E-V13 sample which has a lot of Barcin and some Yamnaya makes me think E-V13 really lived in Balkans during Chalcolithic (Either Chalcolithic Croatia/Serbia/Bosnia, somewhere here) then moved up North during EBA to integrate and participate into the formation of latter Middle-Danube Urnfield groups. Some of them more some of them less so.

Just like i mentioned before Cardials moved up in Bosnia, participating in creating Butmir Culture then Butmir participated on forming Vucedol then Vucedol participated on creating Nagyrev and related North-East Hungarian EBA Cultures. Let's see how things work out.

Its such a shame they didn't use the improved yDNA enrichment methods, because these would really help and make things a lot more clear. Like where the F?zesabony samples, two of them, really haplogroup H? Which subclade? Or the exact subclades of E-V13, G2, J2 and I2. Interestingly, the only I2 which seems to be fairly safe seems to be a dead end. Like I wrote in the other thread, looks like E-V13 eliminated those which participated in this Northward migration, began to first dominate in the Tisza basin and then moving out from there, especially East and South. With Kyjatice, there are now already two J2a with a similar profile to the E-V13 Northern one:
Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/

 

[Southpaw]

Its such a shame they didn't use the improved yDNA enrichment methods, because these would really help and make things a lot more clear. Like where the F�zesabony samples, two of them, really haplogroup H? Which subclade? Or the exact subclades of E-V13, G2, J2 and I2. Interestingly, the only I2 which seems to be fairly safe seems to be a dead end. Like I wrote in the other thread, looks like E-V13 eliminated those which participated in this Northward migration, began to first dominate in the Tisza basin and then moving out from there, especially East and South. With Kyjatice, there are now already two J2a with a similar profile to the E-V13 Northern one:
Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/

I concur, it's a mess. I remember the old good days where we time-traveled from Neolithic and Chalcolithic right away in Iron Age when we used to explain Y-DNA presence, completely ignoring the more dynamic Bronze Age and especially Bronze to Iron Age transition lol.

Hugelgraberkultur was my main candidate once since it was a bridge from South Germany (some sub-group descended from Michelsberger?) toward Carpathes and then Balkans. And exactly the same timeline of E-V13 rise to prominence, but probably it was just a false call.

 

[Southpaw]

I wonder where is Huba Buba/Huban, haven't heard of him for a time. Probably he is hiding somewhere refining his theory on Thracians, Illyrians. He will pop up eventually in one of the threads.

Huban prince of E-V13 Daco-Thracians

 

[MOESAN]

From the distances the J2b2 samples have affinities with Adriatic on the other side, so it makes sense they are from there, Eastern Adriatic, Illyrian tribes from Dalmatia.

It isn't to put upside down the whole argumentation here; just to be precise, it seems that Illyrians were not the same as Liburnians and other N-W Balkan tribes, at least linguistically speaking. At some time, every post East-Urnfield territory was considered under Illyrian control and culture, until the Lusacian C. based on river names in Poland; it appear their linguistic links would be rather with Liburnians and even Sth Veneti so some kind of post-Meta-Italic heritage. I avow I lack recent clues about the allover region concerning Y-haplo's ( I have not had access to all the complete new surveys. My bet todate is that the IA Y-R1b-U152's are rather linked to N-W Balkans and Central Europe rather than to S-W Balkans. If I'm wrong, I would be glad to have the recent data I lack.

 

[Southpaw]

It isn't to put upside down the whole argumentation here; just to be precise, it seems that Illyrians were not the same as Liburnians and other N-W Balkan tribes, at least linguistically speaking. At some time, every post East-Urnfield territory was considered under Illyrian control and culture, until the Lusacian C. based on river names in Poland; it appear their linguistic links would be rather with Liburnians and even Sth Veneti so some kind of post-Meta-Italic heritage. I avow I lack recent clues about the allover region concerning Y-haplo's ( I have not had access to all the complete new surveys. My bet todate is that the IA Y-R1b-U152's are rather linked to N-W Balkans and Central Europe rather than to S-W Balkans. If I'm wrong, I would be glad to have the recent data I lack.

It's slightly unclear at the moment.

As for Proto-Illyrians, two theories are the most credible:

1. They were Yamnaya derived continuing the Early Bronze Age tradition exclusively, the initial carrier was R1b-Z2103 and latter joined by J2b2-L283 (If we go by Yugoslav and Albanian archeologists this is who the Proto-Illyrians were)

2. They were CWC/Bell Beaker derived, probably Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave people who largely influenced the Danubian Urnfield and hence the historical Pannonian, and Illyrization of core Illyrians happened during LBA/EIA when the so called Pannonian-Balkan migration happened and enriched the inner Balkans with iron-working technology (If we go by Austrian archeologists there was Early/Middle Bronze Age continuity but there was strong Danubian Urnfield influence during LBA/EIA (E-V13 involved?)).

Then again we don't know exactly who in specificity was this Danubian Urnfield Culture. We have several of them:

Middle-Danube Urnfield culture


- Velatice-Baierdorf in Moravia and Austria
- Čaka in western Slovakia
- Gáva culture
- Piliny culture
- Kyjatice culture
- Makó culture

 

[Riverman]

Piliny is just considered an earlier stage of Kyjatice. And Mako seems to have become rather a substrate to both Kyjatice and G?va. Out of these only Velatice-Baierdorf is a real member of the Middle Danubian Urnfield group as far as I understood it. They are however very typical for it, so essentially that's it. Those coming down the Danube from the Alpine-Danubian zone would be closely related to Velatice-Baierdorf, not Kyjatice-G?va, which was more Eastern local, closer connected to Epi-Corded and Uneticians than the former.

Compare:

The expansion of the Early Urnfield Culture and in particular the so-called Baierdorf-Velatice complex between eastern Austria and northern Croatia is the focus of this project. In cooperation with the Institute of Archeology in Zagreb, the finds from this period (13^th and 12^th c. BC) are analysed in terms of typology, fabrics and context.

In March 2018 the Austrian and Croatian team members visited the museums in Zagreb, Kri?evci and Slatina with collections of the finds assigned to the Baierdorf-Velatice cultural complex (Zagreb, Kri?evci and Slatina). The goal was to discuss and compare detailed typological and chronological sequence of pottery shapes and decorations related to early phase of the Urnfield Culture. Thanks to the cooperation of the involved museums, the team members were able to study and examine the finds from sites Zagreb-Vrapče (Archaeological Museum Zagreb), Kalnik-Igri?će (City Museum Kri?evci) and Veliko Polje (Museum Slatina).

https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/fors...ie/urnfield-culture-networks/south-connection

The Middle Danubian Tumulus culture was closer connected to the Alpine-Danubian zone, basically Austria-Czechia, while the Channelled Ware group was oriented towards the Carpathians, Eastern Slovakia-North Western Romania. They both split Pannonia/Hungary, largely along the Danube, which later resulted in a mixed zone first and very much later in Eastern Hallstat-Basarabi continuum.

 

[Southpaw]

Well then, let's just split Danubian Urnfield Cultures into Western(more Alpine)/Eastern(more Carpathian) zones, but the core zone inbetween Alps and Carpathian mountains?

 

[Riverman]

Well then, let's just split Danubian Urnfield Cultures into Western(more Alpine)/Eastern(more Carpathian) zones, but the core zone inbetween Alps and Carpathian mountains?

That's for sure, but a wide range. And they were already split in the Tumulus Culture phase, which is the latest point at which Illyrian and Thracian must gone separate ways. The Middle Danubian TC pushed the ancestors of Kyjatice-G?va East and annihilated the F?zesabony sibling of the late Otomani complex, the Gyulavars?nd group. Both were intrusive, but from different backgrounds (Bell Beaker vs. Epi-Corded), and the Middle Danubians came in later, actually.
You see it on the PCA too, the Southern Illyrian-West Balkan Illyrian complex with J2b plots with the French, the F?zesabony-Kyjatice-G?va with French too, but in comparison much more with Balkan, Germanics and Slavs.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]HUN_LBA_Gava:I20771[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03594555[/TD]
[TD]Croatian:Croatia_Cro198[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04016997[/TD]
[TD]German:German18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04102858[/TD]
[TD]Slovakian:Slovakia85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04207747[/TD]
[TD]Austrian:Austria16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04239893[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian:NA15200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04326720[/TD]
[TD]Polisholish27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04327447[/TD]
[TD]Austrian:Austria17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04334110[/TD]
[TD]Austrian:Austria15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04368963[/TD]
[TD]German:German4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04476262[/TD]
[TD]Polisholish28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04519971[/TD]
[TD]German:German76[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04532535[/TD]
[TD]German:German73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04546498[/TD]
[TD]German:German59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04554725[/TD]
[TD]Slovenian:Slovenian90[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04578035[/TD]
[TD]German:German75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04578825[/TD]
[TD]Slovakian:Slovakia96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04591099[/TD]
[TD]Slovakian:Slovakia118[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04625260[/TD]
[TD]Polisholish10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04643268[/TD]
[TD]German:German40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04673483[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian:UKR-1283[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04695328[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_o:Moldovan_V46055[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04710677[/TD]
[TD]German:German64[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04726736[/TD]
[TD]Austrian:Austria7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04739816[/TD]
[TD]Polisholish26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04746757[/TD]
[TD]Croatian:Croatia_Cro141[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]HUN_LBA_Kyjatice:I1504[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03716199[/TD]
[TD]French_Alsace:A_31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03956820[/TD]
[TD]German_East:German_East3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04211835[/TD]
[TD]Slovenian:Slovenian90[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04255626[/TD]
[TD]German:German47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04280057[/TD]
[TD]Austrian:Austria16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04387790[/TD]
[TD]Croatian:Croatia_Cro198[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04393539[/TD]
[TD]French_Alsace:A_69[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04400297[/TD]
[TD]German:German73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04497305[/TD]
[TD]French_Alsace:A_25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04521751[/TD]
[TD]French_Auvergne:C_37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04526846[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian:NA15200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04529478[/TD]
[TD]French_Nord:N_18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04549825[/TD]
[TD]German:German41[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04563996[/TD]
[TD]Austrian:Austria11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04573830[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sappada:GRC14372363[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04586365[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sappada:GRC14372308[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04595099[/TD]
[TD]French_Occitanie:T_65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04599167[/TD]
[TD]Slovenian:Slovenian136[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04611260[/TD]
[TD]German:German29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04619197[/TD]
[TD]French_Alsace:A_49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04624080[/TD]
[TD]Croatian:Croatia_Cro142[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04626876[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian:NA15208[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04631957[/TD]
[TD]French_Occitanie:T_36[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04652386[/TD]
[TD]French_Alsace:A_15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04662286[/TD]
[TD]Croatian:Croatia_Cro43[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Compare with some J2b Illyrians, some with possible Veneti or Celtic relations:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]J2B:I23995[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02016571[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02154721[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:KF1800772[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02245733[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:KF1800751[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02272725[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:corsica11908[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02436301[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02526576[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:Alp401[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02531035[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02579578[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02604619[/TD]
[TD]French_Provencerovance2508[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02634485[/TD]
[TD]French_Provence:S_33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02640638[/TD]
[TD]French_Provencerovance2708[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02672187[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02677038[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmontiedmont61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02696502[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast:ALP346[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02703713[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast:KF1800761[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02709998[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:ALP022[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02808118[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy:ALP288[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02826900[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02880657[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:ALP116[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02883318[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Penedes:ROB016[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02884183[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02884906[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Mallorca:MEL022[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02886690[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Mallorca:MAY035[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02890136[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:ALP250[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02898031[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:Alp100[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]J2B:I26742[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02262368[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01155[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02656272[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:ALP209[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02704348[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy:ALP288[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02770564[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02795969[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02819830[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Carloforte:GRC14339280[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02854679[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmontiedmont61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02863547[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:Corsica14708[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02901771[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02983226[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy:BGD28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02988361[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03018880[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03032490[/TD]
[TD]French_Provencerovance2708[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03053289[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Baleares:HG01613[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03073969[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03080905[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:KF1800751[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03094437[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03133082[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:ALP022[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03170370[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Mallorca:MEL022[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03175743[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03179973[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03202325[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto:KF1800772[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03202815[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03223245[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:Corsica24508[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03227046[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany:NA20502[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The Illyrian-related samples have very little Epi-Corded and Mako drift/WHG, which makes the Kyjatice-G?va, which have it, more "Balto-Slavic" in comparison.

 

[Archetype0ne]

It's slightly unclear at the moment.

As for Proto-Illyrians, two theories are the most credible:

1. They were Yamnaya derived continuing the Early Bronze Age tradition exclusively, the initial carrier was R1b-Z2103 and latter joined by J2b2-L283 (If we go by Yugoslav and Albanian archeologists this is who the Proto-Illyrians were)

2. They were CWC/Bell Beaker derived, probably Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave people who largely influenced the Danubian Urnfield and hence the historical Pannonian, and Illyrization of core Illyrians happened during LBA/EIA when the so called Pannonian-Balkan migration happened and enriched the inner Balkans with iron-working technology (If we go by Austrian archeologists there was Early/Middle Bronze Age continuity but there was strong Danubian Urnfield influence during LBA/EIA (E-V13 involved?)).

Then again we don't know exactly who in specificity was this Danubian Urnfield Culture. We have several of them:

Middle-Danube Urnfield culture


- Velatice-Baierdorf in Moravia and Austria
- Čaka in western Slovakia
- Gáva culture
- Piliny culture
- Kyjatice culture
- Makó culture

Those hypotheses might be one and the same.

The Yamnaya culture (Russian: Я́мная культу́ра, IPA: [ˈjamnəjə kulʲˈtura], lit. 'culture of pits') also known as the Yamnaya Horizon,^[2] Yamna culture, Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture, was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age archaeological culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester, and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 3300–2600 BC.^[3] Its name derives from its characteristic burial tradition: Я́мная (romanization: yamnaya) is a Russian adjective that means 'related to pits (yama)', and these people used to bury their dead in tumuli (kurgans) containing simple pit chambers.

 

[Southpaw]

Those hypotheses might be one and the same.

The Yamnaya culture (Russian: Я́мная культу́ра, IPA: [ˈjamnəjə kulʲˈtura], lit. 'culture of pits') also known as the Yamnaya Horizon,^[2] Yamna culture, Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture, was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age archaeological culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester, and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 3300–2600 BC.^[3] Its name derives from its characteristic burial tradition: Я́мная (romanization: yamnaya) is a Russian adjective that means 'related to pits (yama)', and these people used to bury their dead in tumuli (kurgans) containing simple pit chambers.

Yes, that's true. All IE groups built tumuli. It's just that somehow they decided to name Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave Culture for a reason unbeknown, maybe their tumuli were larger than other groups(during their peak in Middle Bronze Age) not that other IE groups didn't built them. Albanian archeologist Frano Prendi thought Illyrian tumuli were descended from Cetina Culture tumuli, that means from EBA.

But Hugelgraberkultur were Bell-Beaker/CWC derived R1b-L51?, while Yamnaya largely R1b-Z2103, and we are yet to find J2b2-L283 in pure Yamnaya context. So far, it was present in IE group post 2000 B.C and mainly Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian related.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Yes, that's true. All IE groups built tumuli. It's just that somehow they decided to name Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave Culture for a reason unbeknown, maybe their tumuli were larger than other groups(during their peak in Middle Bronze Age) not that other IE groups didn't built them. Albanian archeologist Frano Prendi thought Illyrian tumuli were descended from Cetina Culture tumuli, that means from EBA.

But Hugelgraberkultur were Bell-Beaker/CWC derived R1b-L51?, while Yamnaya largely R1b-Z2103, and we are yet to find J2b2-L283 in pure Yamnaya context. So far, it was present in IE group post 2000 B.C and mainly Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian related.

Yep, went on a google spree right after I posted that reply. It seems there is not much research linking the two together, but given the timeline it is entirely possible. Mainly before making that comment I was referring to the Tumuli/us entry in Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus ). And they seem to be present all over the globe in different unrelated cultures. But who knows maybe Steppe tumuli, Catacomb tumuli, Illyrian tumuli and Tumulus Culture tumuli might have some cultural continuity even if lacking DNA continuity, since it seems the timeline does not necessarily falsify such claims.

This discussion is way out of my depth though.

 

[Southpaw]

Yep, went on a google spree right after I posted that reply. It seems there is not much research linking the two together, but given the timeline it is entirely possible. Mainly before making that comment I was referring to the Tumuli/us entry in Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus ). And they seem to be present all over the globe in different unrelated cultures. But who knows maybe Steppe tumuli, Catacomb tumuli, Illyrian tumuli and Tumulus Culture tumuli might have some cultural continuity even if lacking DNA continuity, since it seems the timeline does not necessarily falsify such claims.

This discussion is way out of my depth though.

Not that i know much btw, but tumuli burials were for sure introduced by Proto Indo-Europeans during Chalcolithic/EBA when they entered Europe and all of them trace this burial practice from them. But then a lot of influences and mixes happened after that. So, decades, centuries later some of the particular cultures developed their own way of building tumuli graves. Some even practiced cremation on a pyre underneath having tumuli, a burial practice which Enchelei used to do.

From my understanding, the Illyrians were the IE group which persisted the most building tumuli way latter during classical age.

 

[Riverman]

Not that i know much btw, but tumuli burials were for sure introduced by Proto Indo-Europeans during Chalcolithic/EBA when they entered Europe and all of them trace this burial practice from them. But then a lot of influences and mixes happened after that. So, decades, centuries later some of the particular cultures developed their own way of building tumuli graves. Some even practiced cremation on a pyre underneath having tumuli, a burial practice which Enchelei used to do.

From my understanding, the Illyrians were the IE group which persisted the most building tumuli way latter during classical age.

The Illyrian core is particularly conservative, and that starts when the Illyrians, descendents from the Middle Danubian TC, split into those cremating and those sticking to inhumation. The later, the "Illyrian proper" or Illyrian core defined themselves in distinction from incoming Celts, assimilated Pannonian Illyrians and Daco-Thraians, by sticking to "the old ways".

This is also what TC in itself was about. After Unetice had a more proto-state appearance, was more socially stratified, complex and mixed, TC is like "going back to the roots" after its collapse. Note that the Unetician core controlled the mostly Bell Beaker Southern German groups, in wider networks. But this was probably a cultural and even political dominance these Bell Beaker tribes, probably, didn't really appreciate.
The same repeats with Urnfield and then with Hallstatt. In the latter case La Tene being also a revolution against the more Eastern dominance, fusing old and new elements to a new dynamic culture, which was La Tene. Tumulus culture followed a similar trajectory, after the Unetician collapse.
So some of the TC influx and attacks are like La Tene Celts, but they must not be La Tene Celts already, but just similar Bell Beaker related groups. Celts might be from a smaller, more specific nucleus of it.
There was however, as you maybe read out, this competition and dynamic between the Polish-Carpathian and Rhenish-Alpine groups. One of them was usually dominant, for a time, then the pendulum moved once more.
Corded Ware = Eastern dominance
Bell Beaker = Western dominance
Unetice = Eastern dominance
Tumulus Culture = Western dominance
Urnfield = Eastern dominance
Early Hallstatt = Eastern dominance
La Tene = Western dominance

As you can see, the pendulum went forward and backward and in this context, Illyrians are definitely closer to the Western, Daco-Thracians to the Eastern group, but both largely at the border. Just like Bosnians and Albanians were for most of their existence between the West (Catholic) and East (Orthodox) too. Its an age old borderzone.

 

[Southpaw]

It's interesting how Enchelei burial described by Pasco Cuzman is similar to how Homer describes Patroclus burial. Obviously this was not the burial of Acheans, but of some of the Early Iron Age Greek tribes.

 

[kingdavid]

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201769/figures/2
9 out of 168 is 5.4%

Another study with 193 samples put all E at 8.7%.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin


Maciamo has a total collection of +500 samples so I am missing something, but it is probably around 5-7%.

cool papers
i wanted to see the haplogroups specific to heraklion city ( the capital) inside the heraklion prefecture

‎​

heraklion city:
r1b 3/16


G2 2/16


E-M78 2/16


J1 1/16

R1A 3/16


J2F-M67 2/16

T-M70 1/16


J2-DYS413 2/16


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraklion