"Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians" paper

[Johane Derite]

Using Ph2ter's newly found Slavic primordial proxy, it confirms my Iron Age model. The two samples from mdv are much higher in Slavic admixture than the post-mdv samples, and the two mdv samples are clearly unrelated to each other, which the authors chose to ignore and even combine them as one population. Why do this when Kenete is less than 5 kilometers from the Kukes samples, in theory it should be the parent of the post-mdv samples using the mindset of the authors that no population came in during/after 9th century (being close minded to such a hypothesis).

TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
EHG__UOO025,0.117238,0.023357,0.120679,0.211243,-0.012925,0.068886,-0.035017,-0.023999,-0.009204,-0.071983,0.02517,-0.012439,0.026759,-0.052572,0.024294,0.028507,0.016689,-0.022804,0.00352,0.020385,-0.001747,0.025102,0.017994,-0.016749,-0.017723
CHG__KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
Baltic_drift_as_HUN_MBA_Vatya_o_RISE479,0.132035,0.140143,0.087869,0.066215,0.069859,0.018128,0.011751,0.01223,0.036201,0.013668,0.005521,-0.014087,0.01888,0.038534,-0.029044,0.000265,-0.003651,0.012162,0.006662,0.00075,0.011979,0.000124,-0.021692,-0.099773,0.007305
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728,0.033009,-0.081242,-0.184789,0.125325,-0.09848,0.06777,0.002585,0.007615,0.03661,0.02606,-0.002273,0.010041,-0.005798,0.006744,0.004479,0.001326,0.008605,0.001267,0.00352,0.001376,0.003743,-0.004946,-0.00037,-0.00253,-0.007305
CHN_Yellow_River_LN,0.0166466,-0.4503874,0.0109365,-0.0657709,0.0545101,0.0217886,0.0037894,0.0012404,-0.0097149,0.0040092,-0.0851524,-0.0100032,0.0123945,-0.0059179,-0.0088896,-0.000895,0.001483,-0.0003801,-0.0048392,-0.0075191,0.0172975,0.007543,0.0128639,-0.0006476,0.0073496

The post-mdv samples especially the ones with less Slavic admixture which are also the earliest of the post-mdv Kukes samples, have an uncanny resemblance to the proposed Bassarabi profile.

Could you refresh me on your iron age model? I'm really rusty with autosomal stuff, so would appreciate a dumbed down version

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Could you refresh me on your iron age model? I'm really rusty with autosomal stuff, so would appreciate a dumbed down version

A while back I stumbled into a way of bypassing G25 calc weakness of preferring to use Anatolian shifted intermediate populations like south Thracians and IA Greeks as a shortcut for Anatolian BA mixture. From the improvements I made it became clear that when a calc uses south Thracian or IA Greek component for Albanian it is mostly a result of a modern Albanian being mixed and water downed with populations that carry high "east med" mixture, which did happen over the time. The logic why this occurs is because Daco-Mysians are in a way Thracians without Anatolian/aegean mixture and if a population descends from such profile but has through the vastness of time degraded this component by mixing with other populations, the connection is lost and the calc cannot recall the component correctly and will opt of shortcuts.
My way to get around this calc shortcoming was to compile a vast amounts of G25 coordinates that are purely BA-IA Anatolian, Levant, Iran and North Africa, all without Corded/Yamnaya mixture, sort of like a free choice mineral feed for MENA ancestry, and treat IA Balkan clusters as their own averages, that way no Balkan IA cluster was in disadvantage of being selected over east med component.

This is the result of the model:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...IA-Balkan-case?p=667955&viewfull=1#post667955


Some other interesting results using the same model: early mdv Montenegrins vs modern

Early mdv Slavs of Montenegro have Cinamak and Cinamak like(MKD Ohrid) Balkan substrate, while today Monentegrins have a new elevated ancestry from Bassarabi profile which was high in Kukes post-mdv samples.

These are Macedonian(Slav) regional averages to the same model, the Kukes post-mdv like ancestry peaks in eastern Macedonia.

I will PM you the model. No free trade secrets for Brumi and his girls.

 

[Johane Derite]

A while back I stumbled into a way of bypassing G25 calc weakness of preferring to use Anatolian shifted intermediate populations like south Thracians and IA Greeks as a shortcut for Anatolian BA mixture. From the improvements I made it became clear that when a calc uses south Thracian or IA Greek component for Albanian it is mostly a result of a modern Albanian being mixed and water downed with populations that carry high "east med" mixture, which did happen over the time. The logic why this occurs is because Daco-Mysians are in a way Thracians without Anatolian/aegean mixture and if a population descends from such profile but has through the vastness of time degraded this component by mixing with other populations, the connection is lost and the calc cannot recall the component correctly and will opt of shortcuts.
My way to get around this calc shortcoming was to compile a vast amounts of G25 coordinates that are purely BA-IA Anatolian, Levant, Iran and North Africa, all without Corded/Yamnaya mixture, sort of like a free choice mineral feed for MENA ancestry, and treat IA Balkan clusters as their own averages, that way no Balkan IA cluster was in disadvantage of being selected over east med component.

This is the result of the model:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...IA-Balkan-case?p=667955&viewfull=1#post667955


Some other interesting results using the same model: early mdv Montenegrins vs modern

Early mdv Slavs of Montenegro have Cinamak and Cinamak like(MKD Ohrid) Balkan substrate, while today Monentegrins have a new elevated ancestry from Bassarabi profile which was high in Kukes post-mdv samples.

These are Macedonian(Slav) regional averages to the same model, the Kukes post-mdv like ancestry peaks in eastern Macedonia.

I will PM you the model. No free trade secrets for Brumi and his girls.

Fascinating, i wonder if we could tezt these somehow linguistically/culturally (i.e. eastern macedonia)

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Fascinating, i wonder if we could tezt these somehow linguistically/culturally (i.e. eastern macedonia)

I posted that because it is interesting that in eastern Macedonia we have the Bessi culture sites. The minor Germanic ancestry is also interesting, I know from reading that eastern Mac had Saxon miners, don't know if that was unique only to this part of Macedonia, a possible explanation for the minor Germanic mixture.

 

[eupator]

I posted that because it is interesting that in eastern Macedonia we have the Bessi culture sites. The minor Germanic ancestry is also interesting, I know from reading that eastern Mac had Saxon miners, don't know if that was unique only to this part of Macedonia, a possible explanation for the minor Germanic mixture.

Eastern Macedonia, I imagine you refer to Drama and Kavala, these places were always considered as more or less part of Thrace (and still are, they are part of the modern prefecture of "E. Macedonia and Thrace", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Macedonia_and_Thrace).

The river Strymon is the natural border between Macedonia and Thrace.

 

[Riverman]

I posted that because it is interesting that in eastern Macedonia we have the Bessi culture sites. The minor Germanic ancestry is also interesting, I know from reading that eastern Mac had Saxon miners, don't know if that was unique only to this part of Macedonia, a possible explanation for the minor Germanic mixture.

I think there are 2-3 layers of Germanic admixture, the first coming from the migration period, the second with earlier Medieval settlements, especially miners in the Pre-Ottoman period and the third with the modern era German settlement in the Balkans and Russia. It is extremely difficult to tell how much each layer contributed, but it must have been "something" for each, even if its just a fraction of a single percent. Anything in the ballpark of two digits however is likely just an artefact of an insufficient model - which is usually the case if the algorithm picks an extreme pure source before the actual mixed one or no proper reference was included. Like Germans getting English-Swedish + Italian-Balkan instead of regional German/Central European.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Eastern Macedonia, I imagine you refer to Drama and Kavala, these places were always considered as more or less part of Thrace (and still are, they are part of the modern prefecture of "E. Macedonia and Thrace", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Macedonia_and_Thrace).

The river Strymon is the natural border between Macedonia and Thrace.

North Macedonia, Fyromovia, east of the vardar. These are averages were posted by the Greek guy in anthro, the one that gathers large database of G25s.

 

[z00m]

It's obvious to me that E-V13 is not Illyrian and wasn't found in IA Albania nor a lineage among Illyrians but Thracian. We have this incredible obsession with Illyrians. Partly also the fault of our neighbors who are also obsessed with them. But one cannot say the Albanian population is identical to the Iron Age population of Albania. There are lineages that came from other parts of the Balkans. Some of the J2b2 and R1b might of come from somewhere else too.

 

[BenRandy1]

Eastern Thracians would probably carry haplogroup E-V13.

haplotree(dot)info/maps/ancient_dna/samples(dot)php?searchcolumn=Y_Haplotree_Variant&searchfor=E-V13&ybp=500000,0

Look here
SEEurope5 - Kapitan Andreevo
Dated : 2500 years before present?
500 BC?
Its the oldest E-V13 listed here

Which would make sense if albanians have it because thracians are pre slavic Balkan peoples.

 

[torzio]

It's obvious to me that E-V13 is not Illyrian and wasn't found in IA Albania nor a lineage among Illyrians but Thracian. We have this incredible obsession with Illyrians. Partly also the fault of our neighbors who are also obsessed with them. But one cannot say the Albanian population is identical to the Iron Age population of Albania. There are lineages that came from other parts of the Balkans. Some of the J2b2 and R1b might of come from somewhere else too.

more likely it is Dacian ( a sub branch of thracian , like the Getae are as well ) and not the true Thracians...ie the Bulgarian area ones

the only ancient illyrians I recall from modern croatia and slovenia have J2a, R1b, G2a and some N in the islands..............none are slavic in origin

 

[Friesday]

Thank you
Interesting

 

[L_lz]

My prediction is around 56-75%,since the slavic ancestry is around 25%.
The research also says:"The close clustering of BA-IA populations from Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, North Macedonia,
and northern Greece is also confirmed in proximate qpAdm models, as the �inamak MLBA-IA
samples derive most of their ancestry from the West Balkans (Tables S8-S9), with a possible 15-
25% contribution from a southeast Balkan source (Bulgaria EIA, Greece BA Mycenaean) after the
Middle Bronze Age (MBA) (Table S9)"
The truth is that i had detected that southeast balkan source,and i think that modern albanians derive around 15-20% from southeast balkan populations.
Distance to: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1
0.06629520 Albania_LIA-Roman_Republic_Cinamak
0.06695643 Albanian
0.07006565 Albania_LIA_Cinamak
0.07241172 Albania_LBA-LIA_Cinamak
0.08227858 Albania_MLBA-LIA_Cinamak
0.08268347 Albania_MBA
The thing is,that Cinamak albanians(LIA) are as close to Ancient Greeks as the modern albanians.How is that possible,having the same distances after a huge migration of slavs,from who you derive 1/4 of your ancestry?Did some Greeks migrate to Albania after the invasion or before to boost that Southeast Balkan source?

I had an account here and forgot my password and wanted to reply as I think this is all very important information.
But the southeast Balkan source has nothing to do with any Greeks but more with a Thrako/Dacian-Illyrian ancestor that
came from more of the Inland/Central Balkans and which brought E-V13, some J2b2 and R1b and some other lineages into modern Albania, I believe this occurred around year 200-400 AD sometime during the Roman period. Hundreds of years before the arrival of Slavs.

Names of coastal towns were picked up from Latin speakers and there was a continuity of a population there too such as Albanoi, Komani Kruja culture etc. Some other lineages might of also come from other parts of the Balkans from either purely Thracian, Illyrian etc. Explains the connection with Romanian, proto-Romanians seem to of been partly Dacian/Thracian.

 

[Vitruvius]

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html


I do not trust this guy to give a fair and accurate assessment, especially with assessments such as this.

Davidski said:


Genetics has shown that Modern Greeks do in fact descend from the ancients, it is not a coincidence. The only people that think otherwise are ab invisible minority on the internet.

Even laymen already think the ancients are related to the modern Greeks, so they know better than people who have their mind polluted with sophistry, on the internet.

Skourtanioti et al 2023 put the final nail in the coffin for widespread continuity of modern Greek populations with late bronze age Greeks. Anyone who is pushing this anti-greek continuity narrative lives under a rock or is purposefully disingenuous for politically motivated reasons. I agree entirely with you.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

It's obvious to me that E-V13 is not Illyrian and wasn't found in IA Albania nor a lineage among Illyrians but Thracian. We have this incredible obsession with Illyrians. Partly also the fault of our neighbors who are also obsessed with them. But one cannot say the Albanian population is identical to the Iron Age population of Albania. There are lineages that came from other parts of the Balkans. Some of the J2b2 and R1b might of come from somewhere else too.

Or iron age Albania was a mix of illyrians and Urnfield (and ancient Macedonian/Epirote). Why does it have to be Thracian?

 

[epirus1000]

Skourtanioti et al 2023 put the final nail in the coffin for widespread continuity of modern Greek populations with late bronze age Greeks. Anyone who is pushing this anti-greek continuity narrative lives under a rock or is purposefully disingenuous for politically motivated reasons. I agree entirely with you.

What do you mean?
Skourtanioti et al 2023 did not focus on the continuity of modern greek population, but mostly on the discontinuity of the ancient greek population.

 

[Vitruvius]

What do you mean?
Skourtanioti et al 2023 did not focus on the continuity of modern greek population, but mostly on the discontinuity of the ancient greek population.

Skourtanioti et al proved large sums of modern-like greeks existed by the late bronze age in Greece proper. You can check their G25 coordinates. There was no discontinuity here or break from the earlier Mycenaean population but simply a continued influx of admixture related to the steppe and Anatolia BA that gradually pushed them from being similar to moderns to overlapping.

 

[Denxz]

And what's the point of comparing these samples from Albania only when it's not even where the proto-Albanian homeland most likely was ?

Sure, they represent the partial ancestry of what the proto-Albanians looked like, at least during the Bronze Age - Iron Age transition but the other part was more like a Iron Age E-V13 in more inland of the Balkans.

 

[epirus1000]

Skourtanioti et al proved large sums of modern-like greeks existed by the late bronze age in Greece proper. You can check their G25 coordinates. There was no discontinuity here or break from the earlier Mycenaean population but simply a continued influx of admixture related to the steppe and Anatolia BA that gradually pushed them from being similar to moderns to overlapping.

I asked ChatGpt and it does not say that. I focuses on genetic mixing and on the fact that people married cousins all over the place, a unique feature of the Aegean Greeks. I suppose marrying cousins is still a practice in Greece.

Here are the key points from the article in simpler terms:

1. Genetic Mixing: The study looked at the genetics of ancient people who lived in the Aegean region during different time periods, such as the Bronze Ages. They wanted to understand how these people were genetically related to other populations in Europe.
2. Ancestral Sources: The researchers used genetic data from different European populations dated between 3500 BC and 1000 BC to create models of genetic mixing. They considered possible sources of genetic influence, including the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (a region in Eastern Europe), Central and South Europe, and the Western Eurasian Steppe (WES).
3. Genetic Affinity: The analysis revealed that people in the Aegean during the LBA had genetic contributions from various sources, including Eastern Europe, Central Europe, and South Europe. However, the influence from the Western Eurasian Steppe was not significant.
4. Variation in Crete: Interestingly, in Crete (an island in the Aegean), there was a wide range of genetic contributions. Some individuals had little to no genetic influence from the Western Eurasian Steppe, while others had a substantial amount. This variation suggests that there was a complex mixture of different populations in Crete during this time.
5. Family Connections: The study also examined the genetics of individuals buried together in collective graves. They found evidence of extended families buried together in some instances, providing insights into kinship and burial practices in the Aegean during the Bronze Age.

In simpler terms, this research used genetics to investigate how different ancient populations mixed in the Aegean region during the Bronze Age and Iron Age. They found that people in this area had genetic influences from various parts of Europe, with some areas showing more diversity than others. The study also uncovered family connections among individuals buried together, shedding light on ancient burial customs.

 

[epirus1000]

And what's the point of comparing these samples from Albania only when it's not even where the proto-Albanian homeland most likely was ?

Sure, they represent the partial ancestry of what the proto-Albanians looked like, at least during the Bronze Age - Iron Age transition but the other part was more like a Iron Age E-V13 in more inland of the Balkans.

Who told you where is the most likely proto-Albanian area?
We have Greeks that use J2a as the only source of continuity with just 10% of modern population.

 

[Kari]

Who told you where is the most likely proto-Albanian area?
We have Greeks that use J2a as the only source of continuity with just 10% of modern population.

Well,J2a is near 30% only in greek islands.In south Greece it is 12-16%,and in the north 8-12%.The percentage of J2a in ancient greece was around 40-50%(I have checked it by seeing ALL the studies).That means that we are around 28-36% ancient Greek by Y-DNA.That of course means that there is not a huge continuity,according to Y-DNA.Autosomally,we are more connected to ancient Greeks,I would say around 50-60%.