Ancient Lombard Dna from Szolad and Collegno

It would be strange if ancient northern italians were really so southern genetically considering that in the Bronze Age North Italy was almost a prolongation of the Danube valley (Beaker, Polada, Wieselburg-Gàta in Friuli, Terramare, Canegrate/Golasecca all show influences from the north of the Alps)..not to mention the later Gaulish invasion

Yes, it surprised me too, so I combed through not only the paper, but the supplementary text, and it seems that the authors conducted a rather exhaustive analysis not only of the archaeological context, kinship networks based on genetic analysis, and precise dating of the remains, but a more than exhaustive isotope analysis of each sample. Indeed, as Razib Khan pointed out, the paper is in that way an excellent example of multi-disciplinary analysis. I wouldn't expect anything less of Johannes Krause.

This is what they concluded:
""In contrast, in Collegno it was notable that the five individuals with major southern ancestry are primarily assigned to Italy using PAA, exhibited local strontium signatures. When examining the two major kindred, we observe the striking general pattern that earlier generations had strontium isotope values that diverged from the local range more than later generations (Fig 3D, Figure S15.3). This appears to fit a model of individuals of central/northern European ancestry migrating and settling in Collegno amongst a set of local individuals of primarily Italian origin. "

Again, in another part of the study:
""At Collegno it has been possible to identify first-generation migrants with ‘northern’ ancestry, who were followed by two or three generations of stable settlement. They settled among individuals with high percentages of ‘southern’ ancestry."

That seems pretty clear, yes?

To contest the conclusion you would have to be able to show that they're wrong about the isotope analysis, or they compared samples from vastly different dates, etc.

Now, this doesn't mean that every site in Italy is going to be the same. It means this was the case here.

Perhaps, as I was speculating above, there was indeed an influx of Indo-European speaking people into Italy. We may find graves in other parts of Italy which are pretty "northern". However, we always have this problem in archaeology, and therefore in genetics, that we usually only find elite graves. The mass of the people weren't buried with that kind of care. This analysis is unique in that they recovered the remains not only of the "elite", but of those who weren't "elite".

That's also why I mentioned above the disparity between the Thracian remains. It took a long time for these groups to admix thoroughly. Look at the hunter-gatherers and the Neolithic farmers. It took two thousand years.
 
no i'm not contesting their result :) i'm just surprised beacuse i have always believed that Germanic migrations had a negligible impact in Southern Europe

However more samples, possibly pre-romans, are needed IMO
 
no i'm not contesting their result :) i'm just surprised beacuse i have always believed that Germanic migrations had a negligible impact in Southern Europe

I didn't mean you personally. :) I just don't doubt that in certain quarters the conclusions of this study, performed under the aegis of a heavy weight in the field are not particularly welcome, shall we say.

I didn't think the Barbarian invasions had a negligible effect, but I thought it was minor, maybe ten percent or so, and higher in areas of heavy Lombard settlement, like the Veneto and parts of Lombardia. That's because I was basically using U-106 and I1 as markers to its extent, given it was probably more heavily male, which these burials seem to suggest was the case. I did hold out the possibility it might be more if the Lombards had picked up R1b on their travels.

Given that we have R1b U-152 among the "Lombards" at Szabo, that is now a possibility:

Table S9.2
SZ5 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b CTS1595

In fact, it's Z36, isn't it?

Then at Colegio there's this:
CL49 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a

Does that seem reasonable to you?
 
According to Razib Khan in his post about this study yesterday, the elite individuals and the low status "southern-shifted" individuals are both groups different from the indigenous individuals of Pannonia. Both groups would've been marked by some very mobile individuals, so they were apparently not locals at all, and Pannonians were neither "northern Europeans" nor "southern Europeans" like the people whose DNA was analyzed. Is that true? Then what were indigenous Pannonians like?

That, if confirmed, would change our perspectives about this, because those "Italian-like" individuals would also be foreigners accompanying the Lombard tribes/bands as a sort of "caste" with lower status, reduced mixing with the higher status Lombards and its own distinctive genetic profile. But if Lombards came from the north as it seems most probable due to their language affiliatiion, where did those "southern Europeans" get attached and absorbed by the Lombard tribes, even if apparently in a seggregated way? That sounds so strange/unlikely and, I must say, also so detrimental to the apparent Lombard society... As Angela said, this was really a society apparently much less admirable than the Roman way of dealing with assimilated foreigners.
 
I didn't mean you personally. :) I just don't doubt that in certain quarters the conclusions of this study, performed under the aegis of a heavy weight in the field are not particularly welcome, shall we say.

I didn't think the Barbarian invasions had a negligible effect, but I thought it was minor, maybe ten percent or so, and higher in areas of heavy Lombard settlement, like the Veneto and parts of Lombardia. That's because I was basically using U-106 and I1 as markers to its extent, given it was probably more heavily male, which these burials seem to suggest was the case. I did hold out the possibility it might be more if the Lombards had picked up R1b on their travels.

Given that we have R1b U-152 among the "Lombards" at Szabo, that is now a possibility:

Table S9.2
SZ5 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b CTS1595

In fact, it's Z36, isn't it?

Then at Colegio there's this:
CL49 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a

Does that seem reasonable to you?


This does not exclude that Z36 may have arrived sooner in Italy as well. Z36 seems not to be Germanic.
 
no i'm not contesting their result :) i'm just surprised beacuse i have always believed that Germanic migrations had a negligible impact in Southern Europe

However more samples, possibly pre-romans, are needed IMO

You're repeating my mantra of more samples, please. :)

It's called preaching to the choir.

Of course, we'd have to be careful to be cognizant of the fact that elite graves might not present the whole story, yes?

Plus, didn't I just say this may not be the result everywhere?

I just don't see how the results of this particular study can be reasonably contested. If someone were to do that, absent some pretty convincing hard evidence, it would suggest some sort of wilful blindness or reacting out of some agenda, perhaps.

@ PaxAugusta,
As to Z36, you're absolutely correct that it may have arrived in multiple waves. It's just that in terms of tracking "Germanic" influence in Italy, which turns out to be as much if not more "British" like, as in a combination of "Celtic" and "Germanic", not including some R1b may have led to an underestimation of influence from the Barbarian invasions, at least in the north.
 
For me the results are 100% reliable...no problems, also 6th century AD is not in my area of interest, i prefer prehistory
 
According to Razib Khan in his post about this study yesterday, the elite individuals and the low status "southern-shifted" individuals are both groups different from the indigenous individuals of Pannonia. Both groups would've been marked by some very mobile individuals, so they were apparently not locals at all, and Pannonians were neither "northern Europeans" nor "southern Europeans" like the people whose DNA was analyzed. Is that true? Then what were indigenous Pannonians like?
That, if confirmed, would change our perspectives about this, because those "Italian-like" individuals would also be foreigners accompanying the Lombard tribes/bands as a sort of "caste" with lower status, reduced mixing with the higher status Lombards and its own distinctive genetic profile. But if Lombards came from the north as it seems most probable due to their language affiliatiion, where did those "southern Europeans" get attached and absorbed by the Lombard tribes, even if apparently in a seggregated way? That sounds so strange/unlikely and, I must say, also so detrimental to the apparent Lombard society... As Angela said, this was really a society apparently much less admirable than the Roman way of dealing with assimilated foreigners.
history states
Alboin’s invading army included not only Longobards but Gepids, Bulgars, Sarmatians, Pannonians, Suevi, Noricans, and others 6,10.
Noricans = illyrians who became celtinized by the early iron age
Pannonians where always a illyrian/dacian mx
gepids = sometimes associated with goths
these are the people that left pannonia after 300 years of settlement to invade ostrogoth italy and take control
.
.
In one chart it plots clearly these individuals and shows who is northern as it shows BAS, IBS and BER ( bergamo ) in blue and the southern shows
Tus and then TSI and ALB, GRE etc in yellow ..........
.
.TUS must mean northern tuscany/ligurians and emilians nad TSI as southern tuscans, romans and central italians.
.
As Angela stated previously SZ36 is the most closest to TSI and CL23 sits closest to Bergamo and shifted towards BUL ...........noted in other charts as Hungarian bronze age group
 
Interestingly, it seems we were on the right track in attributing some of the "southern" samples in Szabo to the Pannonian Romanized population.

From the study:

"Within Szólád we find that adult individuals with both predominantly central/northern and southern genomic ancestry possess similar non-local signatures (Alt et al.13 described this as Range I) (Fig 4). This might suggest that individuals from both ancestry groups immigrated into Szólád together despite the differences in material culture. However, we also note generally a quite diverse non-local range amongst adults with central/northern ancestry (for example SZ4 and SZ16 are extreme outliers), pointing to not all individuals having origins from the same location prior to settling in Szólád."

"A comparison of ancestry groups with the evidence of mobility at Szólád, aspreviously published in Alt et al.28, shows much greater heterogeneity than at Collegno.Like at Collegno, most children display local isotopic values. However, at Szólád there isa distinct cluster of children with >70% ‘northern’ ancestry who clearly all grew uptogether (identified as Range II in 56), whereas the two children with >70% ‘southern’ancestry (SZ36 and 40) grew up in a different location from them (in Range I). The adultsare highly variable. Individuals with >70% ‘northern’ ancestry have a greater range ofstrontium isotope values than those with >70% ‘southern’ ancestry. The latter group mayhave been local to the Balaton environs, based on bioavailable reference data from theregion, but their strontium isotope values do not overlap with the tight cluster of childrenin ‘range II’."

Balaton is one of the areas of the Keszthely culture, to which we were alerted on the prior thread by Wonomyro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

There were only a couple of thousand of them left by that time, poor people, so it hardly seems likely that the ones brought with the Lombards to Italy would have had a huge impact, but some, perhaps. The fact that the Lombards were in such a horrible state by the time they arrived, in terms of not only battle injuries but malnutrition, adds to that. The isotope analysis at other sites would tell us.

It's nice to see that calm and steady and objective analysis of all the variables pays off.

Something else interesting...

I wonder if the following indicates perhaps an absorption of some more "Gallic" admixed groups in northern Italy.

"Similar to Kindred SZ1, Kindred CL1 is predominantly of central/northern European ancestry. However, while genetically quite similar, on average members of this kindred possess slightly less FIN ancestry and are thus more shifted towards northwestern Europe in the PCA, SPA analysis and PAA. In addition, this group is again not genetically homogenous, with the unsampled father of CL87 being of much greater central/northern European ancestry than the mother, CL102, who has an ancestry profile again most consistent with modern day France based on PAA (Figures S13.8). "

"Kindred CL2 also has a more mixed genetic ancestry based on the ADMIXTURE analysis, containing significant contributions from CEU+GBR, TSI and IBS. This would generally associate individuals in this kindred with a more modern central European ancestry than Kindreds SZ1 and CL1. Interestingly the grave goods of the daughter CL47 and an unsampled adjacent female, CL48, resemble burials from this time in southern France and Switzerland (Supplementary Text S3)."
 
There's a Cypriot like person as well (I assume CYP stands for Cypriot), Im amazed at the diversity of these samples.
 
Balaton is one of the areas of the Keszthely culture, to which we were alerted on the prior thread by Wonomyro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

There were only a couple of thousand of them left by that time, poor people, so it hardly seems likely that the ones brought with the Lombards to Italy would have had a huge impact, but some, perhaps.

They were those who didn't go to Italy with Langobards.

Or perhaps those who were resettled by Avars from the peripheral parts of the Khaganate e. g. Dalmatia, which is also possible.
 
For the mentally challenged in the greater population genetics hobby world:

What the authors did was compare the strontium isotope values of the EARLIEST "more northern" samples with the samples that were "more southern". One might start to think that a lot of people in the hobby either just don't bother to read ALL the parts of the relevant papers, or, like one of our late members, are dyslexic and so can't manage to read and understand more than a sentence at a time. I don't know what to suggest in those cases. There's no special classes where someone could read it to them. Or, perhaps in some cases, it's just deliberate misinformation, propaganda, if you will, like that recently engaged in by the Polish government.

The reality is that all of this just backfires. The NORDICIST version of history has been killed by science. It's been going on for four years. People are just going to have to deal with it.

For a reasoned, objective analysis of the other issues read the posts above in the thread.

My word, anthrogenica is turning into another racist t-roll infested anthrofora. What a pity.

Why not just pull nonsense out of the air, guys? They can't even stick with things that could be debated by reasonable people, like maybe these were people from other parts of the Italian peninsula who somehow just wound up there. No, THEY WERE JEWS! The poor Jews have to be dragged into everything. It's what's at the bottom of so much of this crap, and particularly in terms of eastern Europe. It's us, the holy, blonde Aryans versus the Jews. Everybody has to be shoe-horned into one group or another. What losers these people are...nothing to be proud of except that.

I find it very amusing, by the way, that so many young men are afraid to debate me, so they do it "long distance". :) What on earth is happening to men?
 
I find it very amusing, by the way, that so many young men are afraid to debate me, so they do it "long distance". :) What on earth is happening to men?
Maybe because they quickly get banned here... :grin: (Oooops, another infraction is comming...?)
 
Maybe because they quickly get banned here... :grin: (Oooops, another infraction is comming...?)

My dear Wonomyro, just when I was warming up to you out of gratitude for a good contribution to our body of knowledge. :)

I have never in my life given out infractions for disagreeing with me. I issue infractions for insulting other people, other ethnic groups, for insulting me as well, :), for refusing to stop posting off topic material in certain threads despite repeated warnings, for refusing to comply with rules about which flag you're allowed to post, etc.

If you get ten infraction points, then fifteen, then twenty, you're banned. Only Maciamo can ban people outright, and has.

I'm a very adapted person, very rule abiding myself, a great believer in law and order. I have lived by that socially, professionally, and now here.

I've also issued infractions for profanity laden pms sent to me by young men who when bested in a debate can't resist sending such pms, also with very graphic sexual descriptions and comments, I might add.

It seems that the ego of very young men nowadays is very quickly "deflated" and shrunken if you get my point, and they feel that this kind of language somehow reasserts their masculinity. Of course, it does the exact opposite. They just don't make men like they used to...

Not asking for sympathy. In the real world, the idiots who treated me this way lived to "rue the day" as they say. Here, I can only issue infractions, lucky for them.

Of course, one did resort to threatening me. That was a mistake too. He's being watched.

Ed. I do reserve the right to give downvotes, although even there I don't give them for just a difference of opinion. I give them for posts that are devoid of actual data support and that moreover reek of agenda. Those don't have anything to do with getting banned, though. Clear?
 
@Angela

I don't understand why you target Anthrogenica. I don't agree with them but you are moderator in a forum where the owner of that forum had done things like connecting blondness with Indo-Europeans or wondering if E-V13 should be attributed to 'Libyan slaves' (bicicleur had done that too).
 
It's such an idiotic claim for people to suggest that the Collegno samples are Jews. The y-dna doesn't suggest it, and why wouldn't they be Italian? They resemble some Italians that are in Italy today, from both Tuscany and the south. Only a desperate agenda driven person would suggest something like that.
 
It's such an idiotic claim for people to suggest that the Collegno samples are Jews. The y-dna doesn't suggest it, and why wouldn't they be Italian? They resemble some Italians that are in Italy today, from both Tuscany and the south. Only a desperate agenda driven person would suggest something like that.

I know, my guess is that these groups either moved to collegno from other Italian areas or are natives to that area. I also doubt they were Jews or non Italian in general.
 
I know, my guess is that these groups either moved to collegno from other Italian areas or are natives to that area. I also doubt they were Jews or non Italian in general.

Your guess? ITS A FACT, and it says it in the paper. They are locals of Collegno .


MV2wSQ3.png
 
[
A. Papadimitriou;533257]@Angela

I don't understand why you target Anthrogenica. I don't agree with them but you are moderator in a forum where the owner of that forum had done things like connecting blondness with Indo-Europeans or wondering if E-V13 should be attributed to 'Libyan slaves' (bicicleur had done that too)

To be absolutely clear, so that everyone should be able to understand it: a lot of people have speculated a lot of things when we didn't have dozens of papers on ancient dna. Even then, those speculations weren't pulled out of thin air: they were based on what data we had. They didn't stem from any noxious agenda, either.

WE NOW HAVE THAT ANCIENT DNA. It doesn't matter. Now things are made up without any factual support at all. If you can't see the difference then you're really not being honest.

To compare people like Bicicleur and Maciamo, men for whom I have the utmost respect, to the clowns now running around unsupervised at anthrogenica is an insult of the highest order.

Is that clear enough?

As for sites other than anthrogenica, I don't frequent racist sites so I don't know what they're saying, and don't care, frankly. Anyone who reads them is a lost cause. Let the FBI and various monitoring agencies deal with them and their members.

I used to respect anthrogenica, on the other hand, and a lot of their members. I barely see any of those respectable members there any more. Instead, the madmen have taken over the asylum. In the past, people who posted such crap unsupported by any data whatsoever would have been banned outright. Now, either there are no full time moderators, or they're asleep at the wheel, or stormfront, forumbiodiversity, or theapcity types have inadvertently been made moderators. It's too bad.

Now get back on topic, and, btw, write for yourself, not for people who don't have the guts to say it here themselves.
 

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