spongetaro
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Nice map from U152.org showing the distribution of Bell Beakers sites and the distribution of R1b U152.
Nice map from U152.org showing the distribution of Bell Beakers sites and the distribution of R1b U152.
So, very preliminary, my conclusion is that the Beaker-Bell Culture cannot have been wholly Indo-European (I think this is also very safe to assume for North Africa!), or predominantly carriers of R1b. After all, Sardinia's y-chromosomal lineages today are over 50% Neolithic (mostly I2a-M26 and G2a).
- 2 Y-SNP it is very few to qualify an entire male population
- culturally Unetice-Aunetitz culture unerwent B.B.s influences but phenotypically they own more to the 'corded' people (surely Y-R1A as a majority) without forget the neolithic peoples -
- their language is still a mystery: but the fact that B.B.s culture traces are found in a lot of place without I-Ean language do not proves they did not speak I-Ean - it is not the first example of a not too numerous elite not being able to impose its language - I keep thinking they could have spoken a western (centum) I-Ean language... wait and see!
I guess this represents already one example for maritime routes of R1b coming to western europe directly.
Sure those R1bs prove something: that R1b-M269 (xU106) was present among Beaker Folk, at least at the Kromsdorf, Germany, site. If all the other aDNA finds "prove" anything, those two prove at least that much.
The various anthropometrics you mentioned bring in the vacillations of autosomal dna, half of which was contributed by females. You cannot really say that because some Beaker Folk fit Coon's old idea of "Dinaric", therefore they couldn't have been R1b.
And if two R1b among the Beaker Folk don't prove anything, then surely a father and son pair of R1a at the Corded Ware site at Eulau don't prove anything either.
I agree with almost all your post but: 'dinaric' phenotype is not only the "COON'S OLD IDEA" (bu the way, I saw a beautiful dinaric crane (alive) this afternoon in Brittany where this shape of crania is very rare (I know someones, the maximum in the 'Bigouden' region of South Finistere, Brittany) - I agree with you about the "elastic" link between autosomals, and mt and Y DNA - BUT I don't see why Y-R1b could have had so often dinaric traits because dinaric traits are hugely commoner in Balkans where Y-R1b is very seldom - Bell Beakers IN OCCIDENT was VERY MOBILE MALES, AND DINARIC AT THE FIRST STAGE, APPARENTLY... I think they never took there dinaric traits among local females on their ways, becauses the countries they covered in West was very large and variated for human phenotypes - so a male element carrying some genes giving way to a 'dinaric' aspect went from Eastern or South-Eastern Europe - I can't think in Y-R1b waiting more informations for Corded and Y-R1a, I believe as you that we lack more data - but the overwhelming presence of Y-R1a in ancient I-E Steppes Peoples and in North-Eastern Europe, and on the "trail" of R1a to Norway, all regions where the 'battle axes' culture seams having had a big impact, can put us to believe that Y-R1a was very present among 'Corded' people- but surely enough too I think, there was yet some Y-R1b-U106 and some Y-I1 among the 'corded'Sure those R1bs prove something: that R1b-M269 (xU106) was present among Beaker Folk, at least at the Kromsdorf, Germany, site. If all the other aDNA finds "prove" anything, those two prove at least that much. The various anthropometrics you mentioned bring in the vacillations of autosomal dna, half of which was contributed by females. You cannot really say that because some Beaker Folk fit Coon's old idea of "Dinaric", therefore they couldn't have been R1b. And if two R1b among the Beaker Folk don't prove anything, then surely a father and son pair of R1a at the Corded Ware site at Eulau don't prove anything either.
What do you think R1b(M-269) dispersal in Europe(Especially the Balkans)?
I agree with almost all your post but: 'dinaric' phenotype is not only the "COON'S OLD IDEA" (bu the way, I saw a beautiful dinaric crane (alive) this afternoon in Brittany where this shape of crania is very rare (I know someones, the maximum in the 'Bigouden' region of South Finistere, Brittany) - I agree with you about the "elastic" link between autosomals, and mt and Y DNA - BUT I don't see why Y-R1b could have had so often dinaric traits because dinaric traits are hugely commoner in Balkans where Y-R1b is very seldom - Bell Beakers IN OCCIDENT was VERY MOBILE MALES, AND DINARIC AT THE FIRST STAGE, APPARENTLY... I think they never took there dinaric traits among local females on their ways, becauses the countries they covered in West was very large and variated for human phenotypes - so a male element carrying some genes giving way to a 'dinaric' aspect went from Eastern or South-Eastern Europe - I can't think in Y-R1b waiting more informations for Corded and Y-R1a, I believe as you that we lack more data - but the overwhelming presence of Y-R1a in ancient I-E Steppes Peoples and in North-Eastern Europe, and on the "trail" of R1a to Norway, all regions where the 'battle axes' culture seams having had a big impact, can put us to believe that Y-R1a was very present among 'Corded' people- but surely enough too I think, there was yet some Y-R1b-U106 and some Y-I1 among the 'corded'
Anthropometrics can flip in a couple of generations. A Dinaric great grandfather may have great grandsons who would fall into a different anthropological category. For example, I have a photo of my y-dna great-great grandfather. I don't look anything like him, other than the fact that he had blue eyes and I have blue eyes (his eye color is described in a book written by one of his daughters). He was bald by middle age (I still have my hair), and he had an aquiline nose (I do not).
I don't think you should make too much of some Beaker Folk being Dinaric at some point.
Hear, hear! Although I am in fact bald, like my gr-gr-grandfather (and his other male-line descendants).
And by the way, rms2, some years ago (when there still was a DNA-Forums, and you were still active on it) you started a thread about photos of our Y-DNA ancestors. It's now gone to the cyber graveyard, but I thought in principle that was a good idea. Your WorldFamilies R1b forum isn't very photo friendly; I don't know about the FTDNA-sponsored forum, or MolGen, or Eupedia... just thought I'd run that flag up the pole, again, and see if anybody salutes.