Bronze Age Epirus

[Ownstyler]

You have misrepresented what I said, and what papers said in every single post.

Please read more carefully so you understand the point the sources are trying to make. You'll make less errors.

Answer my question please. You said I made errors, show me one.

 

[Ownstyler]

You have misrepresented what I said, and what papers said in every single post.

Please read more carefully so you understand the point the sources are trying to make. You'll make less errors.

Please quote one single thing I said which you can show to be wrong.

 

[Angela]

You did !? This is outstanding, but seems a wasted talent to deal with normal people, who are not so opportunists to go within the limits of the conventional science, and to be called stupid and outlandish just because they don't want to stick to the mainstream, which in fact is not that reliable as you put it. By the way did you study genetics and linguistics, at the same time? What about history, religion, paleontology, epigraphy, sociology and language? You seem to underestimate and despise the content of Albanian universities curriculum, but you have no clue, you just assume. Furthermore, at least some Albanian posters have graduated in prestigious universities outside Albania, and i am pretty sure their knowledge exceeds yours significantly in many aforementioned disciplines. They are putting a different outstanding perspective and reasoning which make the arguments of the conventional science to look dull and thick, and so looks the "truth" of it. This is the reason, their threads get closed and deleted and they get banned and you know it, we all know.

Opportunists stay within the limits of conventional science? I am trying to be tolerant because perhaps English is not your native language, but that makes no sense at all. What does opportunism have to do with it?

We are no longer living in an age of blind faith. We are living in the age of reason and the scientific method, which has to be applied even in subjects which are not the pure, "hard" sciences.

If you can't PROVE your hypotheses using those tools, then it's rubbish, and nobody can or should pay any attention to it.

All the "theories" I described were verbatim from pms to me or posts here at Eupedia by Albanian members. They either contradict data or they are currently unprovable.

You want to believe them for your own biased reasons, go ahead. Just don't expect anyone who has any knowledge in these fields whatsoever to go on board.

FYI, not that you deserve an explanation, but I majored in history with lots of archaeology courses, and some linguistics as well, and I've spent the time since constantly reading in the field.

It seems to me that you haven't read the material, or, like some other posters here, don't understand what you're reading, and are sloppy in relaying what it says.

Also FYI, I don't respect the nonsense published by Creationists either. It's a-scientific rubbish.

 

[Boreas]

Why would they? That's a completely false equivalence in what you're implying. They weren't trying to refute an international academic consensus based on the scientific method.

I took just the your first sentences, so my point is for the people who support the mainstream like a fanatic.

 

[Jovialis]

I took just the your first sentences, so my point is for the people who support the mainstream like a fanatic.

So what you're saying is that you're misquoting, and misrepresenting what I say intentionally? Well, I'd strongly suggest you refrain from doing that. When people don't understand the full context, anything can sound absurd, if you just read half of what they wrote. That's a hack-job tactic that tabloids use.

Fanatically supporting the unbiased consensus of professionals in the field of a particular study? Yeah, I feel strongly about understanding the truth. Not some delusional fringe conspiracy, that no one with integrity respects.

Hey, why not give the flat-Earthers the same respect as NASA too? Please.

 

[Yetos]

I think the map Yetos posted was based on Georgiev's view that pre-Greek toponyms (the ss/nth type of stuff, and others) start to dramatically dwindle beyond a certain line that roughly runs from central Thessaly to Aetolia and instead various toponyms he thought could be explained as rather archaic Greek are more prominent. It's very theoretical of course like all those theories based on scant linguistic evidence, though the view that the proto-Greeks entered Greece via Albania and Pelagonia has been expressed by others too, Hammond comes to mind but via archaeological means. It's quite possible that we'll actually never find out the exact paths certain IE branches took before they arrived to their final destination via ancient DNA either but who knows.

A recent volume on the ancient Greek dialects is "Studies in Ancient Greek Dialects - From Central Greece to the Black Sea" ed. Giannakis, Crespo and Filos. This chapter deals with what you're interested in. A couple of papers by Andrew Garrett on IE dialects were interesting too since they make mention of Mycenaean Greek and the space it potentially occupies between IE, proto-Greek and the other Greek dialects. I think I linked you to one of them in the past.

i see you have notice Georgiev and Hammond.
Sturtz is also same way,

The Makedonian dialect/language origin is clear enough about The NW Dialects or proto-Greek
And all the Illyrian connectivity was express before the Derveni papyrus Muller Karazoff etc
After Derveni papyrus all admit to a primitive Greek dialect or a paraGreek language (compare Icelandic with Austrian for example)
except Eugene Borza and Tzanoff
Borza said about Derveni papyrus it was language of Makedonian upper class and another language to lower class,
But After Pella katadesmos which is a very low class spell,
and the aspirations-writing of Katadesmos stoped publishing,
The problem is that Makedonian is one of NW Dialects, but has shows an Aeolic and Thraco-Brygian adstrtum.
and that makes it difficult,
As for the road, from 1928 it was expressed the theory of Vucedol-Vatin, straight through the Aquatic (rivers) roads of central balkans to lake Lycnitis (Ohrid)
some call it Doric, some call it Mycenean, Giannopoulos describes it at his book through archaiological way,
But could that lead to long Corridor Mycenean palaces culture? or stops to Central Greece to proto-Greeks.
The last I can not decide or support.

Anyway, the findings the late decades, are driving to conclusions, and 'burn' theories of the past.
many theories are 'burned' yet mentioned,
for example 'Solutrean Hypothesis' is mentioned everywhere, but how is handled yesterday and today?

the Linguistic game!!!,
in history there is a tribe called ΑΘΑΜΑΝΕΣ, Athamanians
some ancient call them Hellenes, some others, call them Barbarian, they might not even be Greeks, a tottaly different, as also they could be so deep core proto-Greek
the things we know about Them are very few, a very closed to her shelf tribe, that allied nobody, except once the Aetolians
if I want to play the game I say Look, AΘΑΜΑΝΕΣ-> ΟΘΟΜΑΝΕΣ = Ottomanes
(manytimes I also fall to that 'mind trap' as an imbecile I am)

So no matter the Mycenean archaiological sites, (at least in Pieria Makedonia)
especially the quite big considering one, found 2-3 years before,
we see a connection to the other core,

Epirus has less Mycenean, more than 3000 Mycaenean relics found,
but if remember correct only about 14 small sites, (I may be wrong about correct number since archaiology runs fast to make me a liar)

FOR MYCENEAN EPIRUS A GOOD ARTICLE FOR SMALL INTRODUCTION IS THE BELLOW

https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2014/10/06/bronze-age-epirus-part-2/

Notice Note2 is a Mollosian settlement but a continue from a LATE HELLADIC IIIC (Mycenean foundation and relics)

a good example
and a good linguistic exersice
is the word Θετταλος -Θεσσαλος Thessalian
Attic-Ionian Θετταλος (Τhettalos Th as in Theory
Αeolian Φετταλος (Phettalos or Fettalos)
Makedonian Βετταλος (Bettalos or??? Bhettalos(Vettalos))
Notice Βασις and Θεσις words

compare Germanic Du Thou You

I admit I am ignorant, an imbecile.

 

[Ernekar]

yetos, you are right about macedonian having affinity with NW dialects, but there were also other influences:

"Our sources only rarely mention makedonizein, to speak Macedonian, or the fact that someone speaks makedonisti, that is in Macedonian. This language surely shared a substantial part of its vocabulary with north-western Greek dialects but there were also demonstrable influences from Illyrian, Phrygian and Thracian."

&

"In the mainly epigraphic and lexicographic sourceswe observe a mixture of epichoric Greek names which sometimes differ significantly from the phonology of standard Greek or Attic names, a few names which are found almost exclusively in the Macedonian region, Panhellenic Greek names, but also nonGreek Illyrian or Thracian names. The material supports the observation that Macedonian personal names show a predominantly Greek character"

These excerpts are from:

• Engels, J. 2010 ”Macedonians and Greeks” in: A companion to ancient Macedonia. Oxford: Wiley-Blackwell.

 

[Angela]

@LAB,
I love that the person who sent me pm after pm outlining these fringe, conspiracy theories which other Albanians say don't represent the majority Albanian point of view is the one who wants to attack a moderator on a dedicated thread.

You have a complaint, I told you to lodge it with the moderators.

Paying attention, Blevin? There are at least 3 of them, so maybe not such a minority group? Of course, they could all be socks of each other. Under one name or another, I'm sure Laberia is always with us.

@Everyone, get back to the topic. Try doing something constructive and getting hold of the Tandy book and substituting hard facts for unsupported speculation. I'd be very interested myself to see the kinds of finds at various sites in Epirus.

 

[Yetos]

@LAB,
I love that the person who sent me pm after pm outlining these fringe, conspiracy theories which other Albanians say don't represent the majority Albanian point of view is the one who wants to attack a moderator on a dedicated thread.

You have a complaint, I told you to lodge it with the moderators.

Paying attention, Blevin? There are at least 3 of them, so maybe not such a minority group? Of course, they could all be socks of each other. Under one name or another, I'm sure Laberia is always with us.

@Everyone, get back to the topic. Try doing something constructive and getting hold of the Tandy book and substituting hard facts for unsupported speculation. I'd be very interested myself to see the kinds of finds at various sites in Epirus.

i already ansered at post #66

http://https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2014/10/06/bronze-age-epirus-part-2/

Notice note2 is a Late Helladic IIIC almost Mycenean which continues->evolute to a Mollosian dwelling and cemetery

the article is a gathering from Diplomas and PhD by a Dr archaiologist
who is working to such ephorate (Assosiation).
so there is no need to arque, since all evidences are in the archaiological site and in a museum,
All published, and all presented at least to one archaiological congress or few symposiums

 

[Angela]

i already ansered at post #66

http://https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2014/10/06/bronze-age-epirus-part-2/

Notice note2 is a Late Helladic IIIC almost Mycenean which continues->evolute to a Mollosian dwelling and cemetery

the article is a gathering from Diplomas and PhD by a Dr archaiologist
who is working to such ephorate (Assosiation).
so there is no need to arque, since all evidences are in the archaiological site and in a museum,
All published, and all presented at least to one archaiological congress or few symposiums

There were numerous sites mapped out in Epirus. Some may only be pottery sherds. I don't know, and I don't reach hard and fast conclusions with fragmentary data.

 

[Boreas]

So what you're saying is that you're misquoting, and misrepresenting what I say intentionally? Well, I'd strongly suggest you refrain from doing that. When people don't understand the full context, anything can sound absurd, if you just read half of what they wrote. That's a hack-job tactic that tabloids use.

Fanatically supporting the unbiased consensus of professionals in the field of a particular study? Yeah, I feel strongly about understanding the truth. Not some delusional fringe conspiracy, that no one with integrity respects.

Hey, why not give the flat-Earthers the same respect as NASA too? Please.

What a great attitude for a Moderator. Positive, kind and helpful.

I wish, all the people who are in charge in the forum, able to show same attitude.

 

[LAB]

i see you have notice Georgiev and Hammond.
Sturtz is also same way,

The Makedonian dialect/language origin is clear enough about The NW Dialects or proto-Greek
And all the Illyrian connectivity was express before the Derveni papyrus Muller Karazoff etc
After Derveni papyrus all admit to a primitive Greek dialect or a paraGreek language (compare Icelandic with Austrian for example)
except Eugene Borza and Tzanoff
Borza said about Derveni papyrus it was language of Makedonian upper class and another language to lower class,
But After Pella katadesmos which is a very low class spell,
and the aspirations-writing of Katadesmos stoped publishing,
The problem is that Makedonian is one of NW Dialects, but has shows an Aeolic and Thraco-Brygian adstrtum.
and that makes it difficult,
As for the road, from 1928 it was expressed the theory of Vucedol-Vatin, straight through the Aquatic (rivers) roads of central balkans to lake Lycnitis (Ohrid)
some call it Doric, some call it Mycenean, Giannopoulos describes it at his book through archaiological way,
But could that lead to long Corridor Mycenean palaces culture? or stops to Central Greece to proto-Greeks.
The last I can not decide or support.

Anyway, the findings the late decades, are driving to conclusions, and 'burn' theories of the past.
many theories are 'burned' yet mentioned,
for example 'Solutrean Hypothesis' is mentioned everywhere, but how is handled yesterday and today?

the Linguistic game!!!,
in history there is a tribe called ΑΘΑΜΑΝΕΣ, Athamanians
some ancient call them Hellenes, some others, call them Barbarian, they might not even be Greeks, a tottaly different, as also they could be so deep core proto-Greek
the things we know about Them are very few, a very closed to her shelf tribe, that allied nobody, except once the Aetolians
if I want to play the game I say Look, AΘΑΜΑΝΕΣ-> ΟΘΟΜΑΝΕΣ = Ottomanes
(manytimes I also fall to that 'mind trap' as an imbecile I am)

So no matter the Mycenean archaiological sites, (at least in Pieria Makedonia)
especially the quite big considering one, found 2-3 years before,
we see a connection to the other core,

Epirus has less Mycenean, more than 3000 Mycaenean relics found,
but if remember correct only about 14 small sites, (I may be wrong about correct number since archaiology runs fast to make me a liar)

FOR MYCENEAN EPIRUS A GOOD ARTICLE FOR SMALL INTRODUCTION IS THE BELLOW

https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2014/10/06/bronze-age-epirus-part-2/

Notice Note2 is a Mollosian settlement but a continue from a LATE HELLADIC IIIC (Mycenean foundation and relics)

a good example
and a good linguistic exersice
is the word Θετταλος -Θεσσαλος Thessalian
Attic-Ionian Θετταλος (Τhettalos Th as in Theory
Αeolian Φετταλος (Phettalos or Fettalos)
Makedonian Βετταλος (Bettalos or??? Bhettalos(Vettalos))
Notice Βασις and Θεσις words

compare Germanic Du Thou You

I admit I am ignorant, an imbecile.

I see

Thettalos > Thessalos

Like

Thalatta > Thalassa (sea)
Molottoi > Molossoi
Melitta > Melissa (bee)

Could these words have cognates in Albanian?

Thelle (deep) > thelleTe / Thellesi (depth)
ΘαλαΤΤα>Θάλασσα

Molle (apples) > molleT (the apples)
ΜολοΤΤοι > Μολοσσοι
Like Dardani “dardhe” ( Pear ) etc,etc


BleTe (bee) > BleTeT (the bees)
ΜελιΤΤα > Μελίσσα




Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I see

Thettalos > Thessalos

Like

Thalatta > Thalassa (sea)
Molottoi > Molossoi
Melitta > Melissa (bee)

Could these words have cognates in Albanian?

Thelle (deep) > thelleTe / Thellesi (depth)
ΘαλαΤΤα>Θάλασσα

Molle (apples) > molleT (the apples)
ΜολοΤΤοι > Μολοσσοι
Like Dardani “dardhe” ( Pear ) etc,etc


BleTe (bee) > BleTeT (the bees)
ΜελιΤΤα > Μελίσσα




Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

tt/ss at least in Attic can descend from *tj, *ḱj, *kj, *kʷj (sometimes) or *dʰj, *ǵʰj, *gʰj, *gʷʰj (regularly)

I am not sure what is the mainstream view today but I think it has been said that it represented a [ts] sound of some short.
I don't know what the root of the word Moloss-oi would have been.

θάλασσα is one of the words which are considered 'pre-Greek'. Peronally, I think it is related to ἅλς háls = salt and the other IE words with similar meaning, but the sound changes are considered irregural.

The third word definetely has cognates in Albanian. The word 'mjaltë' is considered a cognate and bl can descend from ml.

 

[LAB]

tt/ss at least in Attic can descend from *tj, *ḱj, *kj, *kʷj (sometimes) or *dʰj, *ǵʰj, *gʰj, *gʷʰj (regularly)

I am not sure what is the mainstream view today but I think it has been said that it represented a [ts] sound of some short.
I don't know what the root of the word Moloss-oi would have been.

θάλασσα is one of the words which are considered 'pre-Greek'. Peronally, I think it is related to ἅλς háls = salt and the other IE words with similar meaning, but the sound changes are considered irregural.

The third word definetely has cognates in Albanian. The word 'mjaltë' is considered a cognate and bl can descend from ml.

They’re referred as “Μολοττοι” in many classical texts, I can’t provide reference right now as I’m from mobile app. You can check yourself.
And “Molottoi” reminds me that many Illyrian tribes find explanations through words for fruits and animals of Albanian.
“Mollet” = τα μήλα. Gr , The apples. Eng

As for the word ‘thalatta’ / ‘thalassa’ the cognate in Albanian means ‘deep/depth’ (thellet / thellesi) but that’s not from mainstream linguists so probably only a suggestion.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[ihype02]

To insist on quoting Fayrmeyer ad nauseam after we have ancient dna from Greece is t-rollish behavior. The musings of someone from the 19th century, who knew nothing about genetics, when the field didn't even exist, are irrelevant in the field of population genetics, especially when he was a blatant racist of the Noridicist variety who couldn't believe that the "dark" Greeks created Greek civilization.

The people posting that kind of material admit, have admitted to me that the science is against them, but they don't care. They feel that "common sense", what they were taught as children and in schools is correct, and all the "experts" are wrong. It's all a big conspiracy where all these people are being influenced by Greeks to take their "side". This is borderline "crazy" behavior. It's like Creationists saying the earth was created 6000 years ago, and the sun travels around the earth because that's what the Bible and common sense tells them, and geologists and astronomers don't know what they're talking about.

Fallmerayer was not a nordicist. And northern Slavs are very blond.

 

[Jovialis]

What a great attitude for a Moderator. Positive, kind and helpful.

I wish, all the people who are in charge in the forum, able to show same attitude.

My attitude has nothing to do with the fact that conspiracy fringe theories are completely indefensible, and lack any legitimate support from academia. Condescending personal attacks doesn’t make your false analogies work any better either.

The next person to go off-topic from Bronze Age Epirus is getting an infraction for non-respect for moderator's warning.

 

[Angela]

Fallmerayer was not a nordicist. And northern Slavs are very blond.

I've never been overwhelmed with how blonde Poles are, for one thing, not from what I've seen or from anthropological surveys. More importantly, what, precisely, does the pigmentation of northern Slavs have to do with anything?

He was a Slavophobe, and looked upon the invasion and replacement (according to him) of the Greeks by the Slavs as a debasement and disaster. And yes, they thought that the ancient Greeks were blonde Aryans. That's why there's such irony in the phenotypical data from the Mycenaeans.

I don't understand how people still don't get that in Nordicism, in 19th and 20th century "racial" theory, Slavs were sub-humans. They were not viewed as blonde Aryans. That's why plans were on the table to exterminate them after they were done with the Jews.

You can't discuss these things unless you understand the history of the time and the political context.

His theories were later used by the Nazis to justify their atrocities against the Greek civilian population.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2T5_seDNZE

Regardless, his "theories" have been completely falsified by modern population genetics, so they are irrelevant. Again, this is now "flat earth" stuff. To continue to bring him up and use his views on the formation of ethnicities in the Balkans is t-rolling.

 

[ihype02]

Hitler on Greeks:
“While our German ancestors lived in caves and worked with flints the Greeks were building the Parthenon. When asked about our ancestry, we must always point to the Greeks.”
I see no Fallmerayer here. Fallmerayer and Nazi connection is a made up theory to demonize him for obvious reasons.
He was a Russophobe not a Slavophobe. He was strongly against the politics of Russia.

 

[Angela]

Hitler on Greeks:
“While our German ancestors lived in caves and worked with flints the Greeks were building the Parthenon. When asked about our ancestry, we must always point to the Greeks.”
I see no Fallmerayer here. Fallmerayer and Nazi connection is a made up theory to demonize him for obvious reasons.
He was a Russophobe not a Slavophobe. He was strongly against the politics of Russia.

Read the link.

Regardless, he is now irrelevant. DROP IT.

 

[ihype02]

I dont believe modern Greeks are Slavs though, or at least not mostly. But ... I was just making a point.