California school district to "affirm" ebonics

[Mycernius]

I agree with Drain Away. It strikes me as the PC brigade. Does that mean if I had a strong Glaswegian dialect and accent would they accept that as a different language? The same can be said for Geordie (North east England around Newcastle-on-Tyne) both are very difficult for non-geordie/scots to understand. I could even travel about thirty miles west from were I live and end up in Dudley, Birmingham. If you have never heard the accent before or the usage of words, then you would think they were speaking a different language. Known locally as Yam-yams, because instead of saying I am it comes out as Yam ie: "Yams goin' into Brum"
Here's a fun site for translating English into various accents: Whoohoo

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Mycernius, you live near me (relatively speaking).

I think the best approach is to call it Black English and study it as part of English Language. Who made up the word 'Ebonics' anyway?

Slightly off-topic, in the school I used to work in I saw a lesson on Dialects in which they covered Black English. The kids listened to a tape of a public school boy (that's private school in US dialect) saying whether he believed in god, then an African American boy discussing the same thing in Black English. They analysed each argument, coming to the conclusion that the second boy had the better argument, despite his apparently poorer grasp of the English language. The moral of this story: listen to what someone is saying, rather than how he is saying it.

 

[ax]

Why don't someone create a poll for this thread?
I personally don't consider Black English a dialect, it has always been referred to as vernacular language book I read in the past. Perhaps time has change, and language has evolved. But whether it be dialect or vernacular or whatever that is, it is just a label that we human give. And of course, the vote counts.

ax

 

[lexico]

in the school I used to work in I saw a lesson on Dialects in which they covered Black English. The kids listened to a tape of a public school boy (that's private school in US dialect) saying whether he believed in god, then an African American boy discussing the same thing in Black English. They analysed each argument, coming to the conclusion that the second boy had the better argument, despite his apparently poorer grasp of the English language. The moral of this story: listen to what someone is saying, rather than how he is saying it.

This would be an excellent example telling how dangerous it might be to dismiss an argument not by the content but by superficial qualities s.a. accent, dialect, or slang. There are numerous instances of non-standard English enriching Standard English not only in the vocabulary, but also in the novel ideas expressed in the non-standard English that is lacking in the Standard. Irish English woudl be a prime example, and I am glad that, in this particular case, the culturally superior content of a black English speaker could fill in for the deficiency of a culturally inferior content of a Standard English speaker. I suppose the question still remains whether the school system should leave alone the Ebonics situation since that might take away the spontanety~creativity of the culture, or whether they should still try to polish up Ebonics speakers' speech habit because of the injustice of discrimination that an Ebonic accent might unduely but frequently invite.
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I agree with Drain Away. It strikes me as the PC brigade. Does that mean if I had a strong Glaswegian dialect and accent would they accept that as a different language? The same can be said for Geordie (North east England around Newcastle-on-Tyne) both are very difficult for non-geordie/scots to understand. I could even travel about thirty miles west from were I live and end up in Dudley, Birmingham. If you have never heard the accent before or the usage of words, then you would think they were speaking a different language. Known locally as Yam-yams, because instead of saying I am it comes out as Yam ie: "Yams goin' into Brum"
Here's a fun site for translating English into various accents: Whoohoo

Lovey stuff, Mike, so much so I wouldn't mind whether the PC brigade was for or against speaking a Yam-yam !

I am love.

In Brummie Yam-yam this would come out as "I yam love" which isn't too bad. But when I plugged in "I love you," it came out "I love yam." I do love yam and all the sweet potatoe family baked, so I tried "I love yam" which is no different in Brummie. So how does one in Brum confess love while keeping the potatoe out of the subject ?

I love yam !
Oh, really ? So do I.
I mean I love yam.
So what ? Everybody non-diabetic loves yam. Many diabetics love yam, too, they just don't get to eat it. I just heard they had a new shipment of fresh Peruvian yam at the grocers, dear. They're supposed to be real good ! :liplick:
Err... right...enjoy your yam, and have a nice day. :11: :bawling: :banghead:
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Slightly off topic, about cockneyed English

My nephew asked me today "Where did that 'ain't' come from ?" (I was trying to teach him about vowel glides. I started with /ei/ and he popped the question. Kids !) As far as I know that /ain't/ can stand for all cases of the be verb and certain instances of the the have verb and the do verb in the past tense, but I couldn't tell him anything about the where, how, who, or why. Does anyone know where cockneyed English actually came from esp. regarding the 'ain't' ? Does it have a place and time where the beginning can be pinpointed :? Where would be the place where the greatest number of people speaking the cockney can be found ? I remember from somewhere that it was some part of London, but I'm totally lacking an understanding.

 

[drain_away]

I'm sure you don't, but just make sure you don't generalize. There are plenty of ignorant people who think that by speaking slower and with less words, non-native english speakers will understand them better, but not everyone is like that. Seriously, some people talk with more sense to their dogs than they do to foreigners - that's something to be very ashamed about (and I am).

Also, surely some of these cases relate to vernacular that has become an "integral" part of American English? When I correspond with penpals and friends from other countries, I make sure I'm speaking proper English. It doesn't help them if I speak improperly and they are trying to improve their English abilities.

(Don't worry, I try my hardest not to generalize. ) I know! I went to a resteraunt the other day, and there were to Americans talking to the waiter in a way that suggested he was a ***** for not understanding English. I was really tempted to walk over to their table and smack them both. (I have a bit of a temper sometimes...:relief

I do the same with my penpal. I just can't understand why adults who are working professionals don't understand how to write correctly. It's not helping my students, and it makes teaching them more difficult. I had hoped that in corresponding with a foreigner they would put at least some effort into writting correctly at least so the person receiving the letter could better understand their meaning. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[bossel]

It's very difficult (and embarassing) trying to explain why it is that working adults from America don't use proper English when they are corresponding with foreigners. I am ashamed...

What is proper English? In everyday usage, everything is "proper" as long as your counterpart understands what you mean.

The problem as I understand it is that many kids speaking Black English as their mother tongue are not able to communicate in / understand Standard English too well & hence have problems in school. That obviously is a problem which needs to be tackled, but I doubt that this can happen by declaring Black English a (foreign) language. What you need are special courses in kindergarten & basic school. But these courses should be open to all who grew up with non-standard varieties of English & to immigrants.

BTW, drain_away: Perhaps you should consider teaching your students not only Standard English, but also non-standard idioms & expressions, in order for them to understand more & better.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

What is proper English? In everyday usage, everything is "proper" as long as your counterpart understands what you mean.

I disagree. For example, sending an e-mail to a work colleague is everyday usage. They would probably understand an e-mail written in very informal English, but this is not 'proper'. I would show them the courtesy of using formal English.

 

[lexico]

I disagree. For example, sending an e-mail to a work colleague is everyday usage. They would probably understand an e-mail written in very informal English, but this is not 'proper'. I would show them the courtesy of using formal English.

Hmmm.... what you say reminds me of how the British are well-known for their high regard for 'propriety.' 'Proper' is supposedly used in high frequency in the UK ? I apologise if I am generalising, but there's a saying,

"The British are so proper !" :gomen:

 

[No-name]

The problem as I understand it is that many kids speaking Black English as their mother tongue are not able to communicate in / understand Standard English too well & hence have problems in school. That obviously is a problem which needs to be tackled, but I doubt that this can happen by declaring Black English a (foreign) language. What you need are special courses in kindergarten & basic school. But these courses should be open to all who grew up with non-standard varieties of English & to immigrants.

BTW, drain_away: Perhaps you should consider teaching your students not only Standard English, but also non-standard idioms & expressions, in order for them to understand more & better.

I agree with you here. Remember that it was a school board who declared Ebonics a language. They are just a group of elected, unpaid amatuers- designated to represent the communities interests. Most charters only require that you are an adult resident of your community to run for the office.

I don't think I have ever met a student who was unaware of the existence of Standard English, and who had not heard it constantly on television and in movies, read it in the newspaper and in books, and hadn't had it pounded into them in schools since kindergarten. We don't live in a vacuuum. People who speak Black English know they are speaking non-standard English, and yet sometimes at the high school level it is difficult to convince a fifteen year old that he can't just talk and write however he wants, whenever he wants.

Kids that speak other (real) languages get special classes in California. We call them ELL for English language learner- and they progress to sheltered classes- which are taught entirely in English, but provide the vocabulary support and visual input necessary to help students comprehend the material. After three or four years, most students are in regular classes.

I don't know about teaching non-standard idioms and expressions. The kids already know them and it makes me look rather silly. ("Yo, home-dawgs- Foster's in the house- so chill esse and let the profe slap the 411 down on you-all. Horale pues.) Hay te watcho muchacho. I think we need to give them the basic tools to be successful in mainstream society.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Hmmm.... what you say reminds me of how the British are well-known for their high regard for 'propriety.' 'Proper' is supposedly used in high frequency in the UK ? I apologise if I am generalising, but there's a saying,

"The British are so proper !" :gomen:

I think we do tend to be polite, which is a similar thing I suppose. I believe that caring about others' feelings is very important, and this naturally means being courteous. I also think good manners and good English make a good impression, and I don't want people to think I am ignorant!

 

[lexico]

I think we do tend to be polite, which is a similar thing I suppose. I believe that caring about others' feelings is very important, and this naturally means being courteous. I also think good manners and good English make a good impression, and I don't want people to think I am ignorant!

Politeness, caring, courtesy, and good manners can't be blamed at all; they actually help to make communication positive and effective, and should be encouraged in all cultures imo.

This naturally leads me to think that Ebonics should also have its own rules of politeness and courtesy; I would assume that not all speakers of Ebonics would speak in unintelligible ways or speak in an inappropriate manner. The question is; is the best form of speech among Ebonics speakers within their communities considered Standard English or is there a 'proper' form of speech unique to Ebonics ?

 

[No-name]

I still think I should teach the kids the things that help them get ahead- this includes values and character and the language that best fits the academic and economic realities of the larger world we live in. I don't think it includes the finer point of Ebonics.

Southern California is very diverse ethnically and linguistically. And every southern Californian is exposed to a diverse mix of dialects on a daily basis- along with the language, food, and culture of 50 different countries. Also, the African American community here in the Inland Empire exists along side, around, and in with the latinos, Asians and whites that live here. There aren't ethnic neighborhoods that are all that distinct or separate any more , and I think everyone living here knows what standard English is and what it sounds like. Although there is nothing wrong with Ebonics outside of the academic environment, like I said earlier, most of the African American parents I have met would insist on their child leaning to read, write, and speak proper English.

 

[lexico]

Thanks for your reply, Sabro. I respect your views because they are based on the reality of "Ebonics" speakers in the broader language/cultural spectrum. I understood you as saying that Standard English is the preferred means of '"proper speech" by both African Americans and non-African Americans alike. I guess then the two problems involved in treating Ebonics as a foreign language in the schools would be

1) to have Language programs dedicated to Ebonics proper for instruction
2) to have Ebonics speakers lacking proper communication ability in standard English receive language training in Standard English

This is how I project the answers might be.

re 1): No, Ebonics does not qualify as a language that needs to be taught
re 2): Yes, Ebonics speakers should be given language support in ELL programs similar to that provided for students with a foreign language as their mother tongue.

If my perception is in line with the reality as you understood; the recent decision that prompted the op is half right; half wrong.

 

[No-name]

That sounds about right.

 

[cicatriz esp]

That obviously is a problem which needs to be tackled, but I doubt that this can happen by declaring Black English a (foreign) language. What you need are special courses in kindergarten & basic school. But these courses should be open to all who grew up with non-standard varieties of English & to immigrants.

We're forgetting a couple things here (this is not directed soley at you bossel):

1. The term Black English may give the impression that only or mostly Black Americans speak like this, which is really far from the truth. Imo, Ebonics is a better, broader term.

2. Peer pressure. This is huge. In some communities like the one sabro was discussing, it's generally very un-cool for young people to speak standard English (ie "sound white"), to the point where they possess little to no ability to switch back and forth.

Yes, everyone should be able to speak the way they want as long as they are understood. But if the version of English that you grew up with prevents you from getting a job that pays more than $14 an hour, then that's a real shame.

 

[No-name]

I think you are absolutely right. It is also the case where a lot of the rules of grammar such as pluralization and subject verb agreement sound wrong if you are used to constantly bending them. Students often write the way they sound. But it is not like they don't hear people "talking white' all around them almost all the time. You make choices, and unforntunatly, some choices leave you at a disadvantage.

 

[drain_away]

What is proper English? In everyday usage, everything is "proper" as long as your counterpart understands what you mean.

The problem as I understand it is that many kids speaking Black English as their mother tongue are not able to communicate in / understand Standard English too well & hence have problems in school. That obviously is a problem which needs to be tackled, but I doubt that this can happen by declaring Black English a (foreign) language. What you need are special courses in kindergarten & basic school. But these courses should be open to all who grew up with non-standard varieties of English & to immigrants.

BTW, drain_away: Perhaps you should consider teaching your students not only Standard English, but also non-standard idioms & expressions, in order for them to understand more & better.

I dissagree as well. I think that just because the person you're speaking to understands your meaning doesn't make it okay to totally disregard basic rules of grammar. Of course, joking around and using incorrect grammar to be funny is alright. But for everyday usage people should strive to use their language to the best of their abilities.

Don't worry, idioms and expressions make up part of the lesson everyday. One of the classes is for students who are preparing for an exam, and, unfortunately, this exam includes many questions related to idioms. I say unfortunately only because they were never taught English idioms. Actually, the weren't taught grammar, either...

 

[drain_away]

I think we do tend to be polite, which is a similar thing I suppose. I believe that caring about others' feelings is very important, and this naturally means being courteous. I also think good manners and good English make a good impression, and I don't want people to think I am ignorant!

I feel the same way, although that might be because my dad is British. I think the British are very polite and friendly. It's really nice when I go to England; people there are so helpful! I also prefer it because they have much better manners than many Americans. Good manners and good English definitely make a good impression. I think both are very important.

 

[Ma Cherie]

I don't think it's so much that students aren't taught grammer, it's more that there isn't too much emphasis on it or that it's very easy to forget basic grammer rules. During my English class I have read other student's papers for when we're doing a group writing workshop. We'll do an essay and have to write a first draft, and this is when students make the most mistakes. They'll make mistakes like starting a sentence with "but". A very common error, forgetting to use commas, another common error. Yes, I'm talking about writing, of course. Like sabro said, people write the way they speak and they shouldn't. And because of this, you forget the rules you were taught.

 

[No-name]

Rules, rules, rules...English has so many rules, who can remember them all?

We try to teach that writing is a process. You write- and nothing is perfect or brilliant in the first draft.

Fix it in the editing stages. Write however you want, in the way that best gets your thoughts on paper in an organized manner- and then fix it. I usually have someone else edit because I often don't (or can't) see my own mistakes.

It also should matter what the purpose and audience of your writing is. In some cases grammar and spelling don't really count because your audience doesn't care and it doesn't interfere with your purpose.