Religion Can Muslims live peacefully with Christians, and vice versa?

[Piro Ilir]

Off course capitalism doesn't care. It is a system of production and investment. System doesn't care, people care. People decide what system to use to make sure society is taken care of. Capitalism connects capital with humans who have ideas what to produce. It supplies money on individual (person or company) basis to produce goods. If you produce goods that society want you will be rewarded with more capital and individual success, if you produce what people don't want you will be bankrupt. It rewards risk taking-entrepreneurial individuals with monetary reward or punishes with monetary loss. It is proven by many centuries and many countries that this is a best production system in the world. The more goods and services system produces the better off is society, the more peaceful it is, the more tolerant and inclusive. The more goods produced the richer the society, the richer the society the more they buy, the more they buy companies make more money and invest in bigger production, the more they produce the more all society get richer, etc.
Compare early 18th century West to 21st century one. Compare communist China with capitalist China. Look at countries without capitalism like Cuba, N Korea, Zimbabwe. Do you see differences, to you see trends?
Capitalism stands behind success of Western world, and not only, in our standard of living, health, democracy, technology, equality, freedoms, peace, etc, list is very long.

I agree with you on capitalism. Nevertheless, don't forget that this our system isn't called capitalism, but it's called liberal democracy.
The problems that we face in some countries, including mine, is due to the malfunction of the liberal democracy, not due to the capitalism.
People should be free to elect their government.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Another thing I can't be bothered to discuss. When someone tells you he hates your culture, will kill you unless you convert to his religion, and believes that by starting a catastrophic war he will usher in paradise, and he does everything to show you he believes it by actually beheading and crucifying people who won't convert, then any sane person would take him at his word.

All of the justifications and rationalizations in the world, and all the playing of the victim card won't change that fact.

If you tough little kids with that extremist doctrine, then you'll have monsters when they grow up.
The regimes of Iran and Saudia needs these monsters to help themselves staying in power forever.

 

[LABERIA]

I believe, that all the conflict between Christian and Muslim is fueled by the economic interest in Middle East.

It`s true but not only this conflict. All the conflicts during the human history are fueled by the economic interests.

The world has only one issue unbalanced capitalism fueled by greed. The rest is just smoke to cover this problem. It is unbelievable that we discuss religion like in the times of crusaders.


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Here you are wrong. Capitalism as a economic system is not responsabile for the world conflicts. This conflicts did not started during the capitalism. What have to do for example capitalism or christianity, islam, etc, with the Punic Wars?

The main cause of the Punic Wars was the conflicts of interest between the existing Carthaginian Empire and the expanding Roman Republic.

Ideologies, and religions(and religions are ideologies like the others) are only smoke to cover not the problems but the economicall interests.

It is unbelievable that we discuss religion like in the times of crusaders.

Agree, it`s hypocrisy. You are an Albanian, 40 years old and you are born and raised in a atheist country. But also communism was a hypocrisy.

 

[LABERIA]

That is effect Angela, not the cause.... and those images are unfortunately real. But the question is we're the guns and money are coming from and that will provide you an outcome that this war is fought with Christian made guns so it is all business after all nothing religious about it. It is christians helping muslims to fight each other for dominion of the region simple as that.


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Ok, but what`s the problem here?

Dīvĭdĕ et īmpĕrā (pronunciato ['divide et 'impera]^[1], letteralmente «dividi e comanda») è una locuzione latina tornata oggi in uso, secondo cui il migliore espediente di una tirannide o di un'autorità qualsiasi per controllare e governare un popolo è dividerlo, provocando rivalità e fomentando discordie.

Even the muslims did this during the history. And if christians decide to stop dividing the muslims, then muslims will start to divide the christians. This are the rules of the game from thousands and thousands of years.
I don`t understand what are we discussing here? Why a lion attacking a gazelle? It`s the rules of the jungle.

 

[blevins13]

Ok, but what`s the problem here?

Even the muslims did this during the history. And if christians decide to stop dividing the muslims, then muslims will start to divide the christians. This are the rules of the game from thousands and thousands of years.
I don`t understand what are we discussing here? Why a lion attacking a gazelle? It`s the rules of the jungle.

My argument is that what is happening now in Middle East the is not related to religion but to economics interest and control of the biggest oil reserve in the world.


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[blevins13]

It`s true but not only this conflict. All the conflicts during the human history are fueled by the economic interests.


Here you are wrong. Capitalism as a economic system is not responsabile for the world conflicts. This conflicts did not started during the capitalism. What have to do for example capitalism or christianity, islam, etc, with the Punic Wars?
Ideologies, and religions(and religions are ideologies like the others) are only smoke to cover not the problems but the economicall interests.
Agree, it`s hypocrisy. You are an Albanian, 40 years old and you are born and raised in a atheist country. But also communism was a hypocrisy.

I am not talking about all the war, I am talking about the current war in Middle East. The need for oil forces western powers to control the that region even by force if required without regard of those communities. The need for oil is driven by greed for more and more energy consuming every resource in the planet and affecting climate. To me the problem is the unbalanced capitalist system established in some of the western countries which are also responsible for the last economic crises that have their fingernails all over Middle East. Communism is dead. By balanced capitalism I mean Nordic system by unbalanced I mean US when a financial engineer is payed 30 times more than a bridge engineer without creating any value.



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[Sile]

There will never be peace between muslims and other religions, there will only be a truce ...............that's how it has always been for centuries upon centuries

 

[LeBrok]

I am not talking about all the war, I am talking about the current war in Middle East. The need for oil forces western powers to control the that region even by force if required without regard of those communities. The need for oil is driven by greed for more and more energy consuming every resource in the planet and affecting climate. To me the problem is the unbalanced capitalist system established in some of the western countries which are also responsible for the last economic crises that have their fingernails all over Middle East. Communism is dead. By balanced capitalism I mean Nordic system by unbalanced I mean US when a financial engineer is payed 30 times more than a bridge engineer without creating any value.



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Can you elaborate how capitalism make Sunis terrorise Shias? Or how capitalism in Egypt made Suni detonate a bomb in Coptic church yesterday? Or how capitalism make Saudis to bomb and starve to death Shia minority in Yemen? Or capitalism make Assad kill all other factions in Syria? And lastly how capitalism supports ISIS?

 

[blevins13]

Can you elaborate how capitalism make Sunis terrorise Shias? Or how capitalism in Egypt made Suni detonate a bomb in Coptic church yesterday? Or how capitalism make Saudis to bomb and starve to death Shia minority in Yemen? Or capitalism make Assad kill all other factions in Syria? And lastly how capitalism supports ISIS?

Hi LeBrok, I laid down my thoughts on the big picture above, the event that you described above I see related to the global picture, not separate. I might be wrong.... but this is how I see it. My background is CPA in Calfornia and I have lived for 6 years in Dallas Texas.


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[Wanderlust]

I am not talking about all the war, I am talking about the current war in Middle East. The need for oil forces western powers to control the that region even by force if required without regard of those communities. The need for oil is driven by greed for more and more energy consuming every resource in the planet and affecting climate. To me the problem is the unbalanced capitalist system established in some of the western countries which are also responsible for the last economic crises that have their fingernails all over Middle East. Communism is dead. By balanced capitalism I mean Nordic system by unbalanced I mean US when a financial engineer is payed 30 times more than a bridge engineer without creating any value.

I agree with you that unbalanced or unhinged capitalism, as I like to call it, has been the bane of the world in many ways and its destructiveness by far precedes the current ongoing crisis in the Middle East > the organization of human trafficking and slavery, the dispossession of native and foreign lands by way of imperialistic expansion, armed trade, the plundering of indigenous technology, quota and tariff barriers on imports of poorer countries, monopolistic trade practices, inhumane child labour atrocities, the ruination of rural and city life, etc.... Even many ancient civilizations, in part, utilized a form of "war capitalism" in order to expand their prosperity by way of the forcible appropriation of land and labor, albeit with the cooperation of a primitive form of "the state" and "state sponsored" greed, corruption and murder. It's also undeniable that historically and rather uncoincidentally, "barbarism" and cultural/ethnic/national/religious/racial inferiority have been the justifications and rationales provided for why the displacement, subjugation and wholesale slaughter of certain peoples were warranted, when "capitalistic" greed and expansionism were the true motives.

All that being said, I think it's a bit over simplistic to suggest that financial gain and interests are the sole reason for the crises in the Middle East just as it's over simplistic to suggest that religious ideology is the primary source of contention; both are not mutually exclusive and in many ways, I believe that there is substantial overlap. From a macro-historical point of view, hyper-religiosity and zealotry tend to promote and encourage humanity's most destructive impulses: judgmental behavior and attitudes, intolerance, narrow mindedness, self-centeredness (read: narcissism), hypocrisy and subsequently, oppression. In the US, the Christian Evangelicals, for example, who claim to be "pro-life," pro-family values and pro-Jesus (who, according to their own bible, was extremely tolerant and sought out the disenfranchised and stigmatized) tend to be the most violent, gun-toting/obsessed, "God hates fags" endorsing, climate change denying, science/logic hating, misogynistic, racist, xenophobic and bigoted; they commit race based massacres in churches, bomb abortion clinics, kill the doctors, and commit all sorts of acts of terrorism (allegedly) on the basis of their faith and hyper-religiosity. And yet they are rarely framed as the terrorists they actually are.

Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that these hate mongering "Christians" also tend to support "Big Oil" and an extreme fiscal conservatism rooted in unfettered capitalistic gain that displaces and disenfranchises. What people don't understand or refuse to understand is that Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals and Islamic Fundamentalists/Jihadists are BOTH conservative/right-wingers who essentially have the same thinking and modus operandi, though they emanate from different ends of the continuum; however, they are, in fact, along the same continuum. When two opposing forces are narrow-minded, self-centered, intolerant, aggressive and greedy, OF COURSE, there will be destructive, seemingly never-ending and uncompromising outcomes. At the core, what unfettered capitalism and religious zealotry both encompass and embody is a lack of balance and moderation.

 

[Wanderlust]

Ok, but what`s the problem here?

Even the muslims did this during the history. And if christians decide to stop dividing the muslims, then muslims will start to divide the christians. This are the rules of the game from thousands and thousands of years.
I don`t understand what are we discussing here? Why a lion attacking a gazelle? It`s the rules of the jungle.

It actually saddens me when people succumb and submit to our baser instincts as humans because we have much higher capacity and potential than other animals; for some odd reason, I tend to expect peoples who've seen and encountered the brunt of human apathy, cruelty, oppression and injustice to understand the destructiveness of such things and resist it (regardless of the form it may come in > capitalistic, communistic, christian, islamic), as opposed to adopt it. But I suppose being acculturated and socialized at the hands of dictators, authoritarians and other vicious sociopaths codifies, normalizes and produces greater apathy, cruelty, oppression and injustice. Sad.

Yes, humans are animals, and so we innately possess many a "primal," "survival of the fittest" instinct and drive, but we also comprise a class unto ourselves, and possess the capacity for limitless conceptualization, creativity, innovation, and abstract thinking, which allows for immense compassion, empathy and logic. I believe that it's important to understand what our weak points and caveats are, but remain steadfast in adopting and practicing higher ideals and standards. That is the only way we can co-exist on the same planet together in peace, or at least, a greater peace. The pursuit of human survival should be logical and not primal; logic will find the most beneficial way for all. The capacity for expanded thinking is what makes humans special and different--we can actually think our way out of these ultimately arbitrary "factions"; we've shown that we have this capability. It may not be easy all the time, but it's possible. History has shown us time and time again that resorting to primal instincts leads to massive bloodshed, unrest and incivility. At what point do we all (some of us have already received the memo) learn and think higher as opposed to shrink back to our darkest, most primitive impulses?

 

[Piro Ilir]

The major player for many years in Middle East is US.


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If it's true what you said, then, why we have all this current situation in Syria!

 

[blevins13]

I agree with you that unbalanced or unhinged capitalism, as I like to call it, has been the bane of the world in many ways and its destructiveness by far precedes the current ongoing crisis in the Middle East > the organization of human trafficking and slavery, the dispossession of native and foreign lands by way of imperialistic expansion, armed trade, the plundering of indigenous technology, quota and tariff barriers on imports of poorer countries, monopolistic trade practices, inhumane child labour atrocities, the ruination of rural and city life, etc.... Even many ancient civilizations, in part, utilized a form of "war capitalism" in order to expand their prosperity by way of the forcible appropriation of land and labor, albeit with the cooperation of a primitive form of "the state" and "state sponsored" greed, corruption and murder. It's also undeniable that historically and rather uncoincidentally, "barbarism" and cultural/ethnic/national/religious/racial inferiority have been the justifications and rationales provided for why the displacement, subjugation and wholesale slaughter of certain peoples were warranted, when "capitalistic" greed and expansionism were the true motives.

All that being said, I think it's a bit over simplistic to suggest that financial gain and interests are the sole reason for the crises in the Middle East just as it's over simplistic to suggest that religious ideology is the primary source of contention; both are not mutually exclusive and in many ways, I believe that there is substantial overlap. From a macro-historical point of view, hyper-religiosity and zealotry tend to promote and encourage humanity's most destructive impulses: judgmental behavior and attitudes, intolerance, narrow mindedness, self-centeredness (read: narcissism), hypocrisy and subsequently, oppression. In the US, the Christian Evangelicals, for example, who claim to be "pro-life," pro-family values and pro-Jesus (who, according to their own bible, was extremely tolerant and sought out the disenfranchised and stigmatized) tend to be the most violent, gun-toting/obsessed, "God hates fags" endorsing, climate change denying, science/logic hating, misogynistic, racist, xenophobic and bigoted; they commit race based massacres in churches, bomb abortion clinics, kill the doctors, and commit all sorts of acts of terrorism (allegedly) on the basis of their faith and hyper-religiosity. And yet they are rarely framed as the terrorists they actually are.

Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that these hate mongering "Christians" also tend to support "Big Oil" and an extreme fiscal conservatism rooted in unfettered capitalistic gain that displaces and disenfranchises. What people don't understand or refuse to understand is that Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals and Islamic Fundamentalists/Jihadists are BOTH conservative/right-wingers who essentially have the same thinking and modus operandi, though they emanate from different ends of the continuum; however, they are, in fact, along the same continuum. When two opposing forces are narrow-minded, self-centered, intolerant, aggressive and greedy, OF COURSE, there will be destructive, seemingly never-ending and uncompromising outcomes. At the core, what unfettered capitalism and religious zealotry both encompass and embody is a lack of balance and moderation.

Sound logic.... I like it.


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[Fire Haired14]

In the US, the Christian Evangelicals, for example, who claim to be "pro-life," pro-family values and pro-Jesus (who, according to their own bible, was extremely tolerant and sought out the disenfranchised and stigmatized) tend to be the most violent, gun-toting/obsessed,

I'm an evangelical Christian. I go to an evangelical College. I'm sure I know many more Evangelical Christians than you do. They can be intolerant or close minded or legalistic. They're also pretty well to do people. They're morally good(I'm not talking about adultery or whatever else. I'm talking about kindness, respect towards others and being unselfish) people. To say they're violent is absolutely wrong though. The rednecks in the communities who are known for violence and drinking go directly against their communities values. Equivulating rednecks with evangelical Christians, which is what you're doing, is false. They're two different subcultures within rural America.

In my experience evangelical Christians are peaceful and kind people. Because someone wants gun rights and wants to hunt doesn't mean they're violent. That's logical fallacy. The people who want gun rights are a non violent demographic. I know an evangelical pastor who owns an endless collection of guns and knifes, an endless collection of animal furs and bones, and he's very nice. The most violent people in America by far are Black men between the ages of 16 and 40. I'm not intending to be racist I'm just stating the fact. You can respond with that fact with your obsessive condemnation of "the white man" if you want, which is a type of bigotry you possess. I'm also mentioning it because you don't like to accept problems in the world where white people aren't the primary source of it. Statistically Evangelical Americans are probably some of the most non criminally violent.

"God hates fags" endorsing, climate change denying, science/logic hating, misogynistic, racist, xenophobic and bigoted;

This is true. A teacher of mine, who's evangelical, says there's sexism and subtle racism in evangelical churches. He has also mentioned they're statically the most involved fathers and husbands. Thinking women should only be in the kitchen and sexually abusing women/"bitches" are two different things. Donald Trump is the former and some evangelical Christians are the latter. Evangelical Christian men are often the opposite of the former. Like I said morally sound people.

they commit race based massacres in churches, bomb abortion clinics, kill the doctors, and commit all sorts of acts of terrorism (allegedly) on the basis of their faith and hyper-religiosity. And yet they are rarely framed as the terrorists they actually are.

Um.....how common are these attackes? "They" you mean one crazy guy, who I'm pretty sure never mentioned he was Christian at all. Lets be honest here your rant about evangelical Christians is hate speech. You hate us, be honest. Hate can have truth to it. What you do is exagerate the truth to justfy your hate. Your intolerance is no different from theirs. It's human intolerance. Just admit it man. When everyone in the left and right can admit where they're wrong and where they're hateful, we can have a much more peaceful and productive country.

IF YOU REACT WITH ME WITH AGGRESSIVE HATE THEN YOU'RE IMMATURE AND ALLOW CHILDISH EGO and TRIBALISM TO CONTROL YOUR BEHAVIOR

 

[Fire Haired14]

@Wanderlust,

BTW, I'd say the most extreme evangelicals are the Amish. Angry violent intolerance has become apart of evangelism, as its apart of almost any ideology which belives what they believe is important and should be believed by everybody, but it's really against fundamental Christian values. Amish reacted to such violence in 1500s Europe with pacifism, which is wrong in its own way.

 

[LeBrok]

I agree with you that unbalanced or unhinged capitalism, as I like to call it, has been the bane of the world in many ways and its destructiveness by far precedes the current ongoing crisis in the Middle East > the organization of human trafficking and slavery, the dispossession of native and foreign lands by way of imperialistic expansion, armed trade, the plundering of indigenous technology, quota and tariff barriers on imports of poorer countries, monopolistic trade practices, inhumane child labour atrocities, the ruination of rural and city life, etc.... Even many ancient civilizations, in part, utilized a form of "war capitalism" in order to expand their prosperity by way of the forcible appropriation of land and labor, albeit with the cooperation of a primitive form of "the state" and "state sponsored" greed, corruption and murder. It's also undeniable that historically and rather uncoincidentally, "barbarism" and cultural/ethnic/national/religious/racial inferiority have been the justifications and rationales provided for why the displacement, subjugation and wholesale slaughter of certain peoples were warranted, when "capitalistic" greed and expansionism were the true motives.

You must be realising that blaming capitalism for all these listed barbarism is like blaming a knife for a murder. Capitalism is not ideology like socialism of feudalism, but a blunt tool to use in economy. Surely it has it's shortcomings and need to be regulated, like everything else we should say. All listed above blames existed in feudalism, simple farming or hunter gatherer societies and are not particularly coming from nature of capitalism. If anything we should blame human condition.
Also we can't blame capitalism for greed of some individuals. Greed exists in human nature like stupidity. We might as well blame education for producing stupid people.

I don't mind criticising aspects of capitalism, just let's keep in mind that there is not even one example of prosperous country without capitalism in a mix. For the balance of things I wouldn't mind hearing from its biggest critics something good about it.

 

[LeBrok]

Here you are wrong. Capitalism as a economic system is not responsabile for the world conflicts. This conflicts did not started during the capitalism. What have to do for example capitalism or christianity, islam, etc, with the Punic Wars?

Exactly, great point. Wars, slaughters, slavery, religious wars, and all kinds of bestialities and greed, hatred, existed since dawn of man, way before capitalism was invented.
Look at capitalism as a tool, which often was used in wrong way by bad people, in last 300 years. You can't blame weapons for starting a war, can you? So you can't blame capitalism.
If anything capitalism doesn't like wars. When people are killed, the customers and employees are killed. During wars goverment takes control of production, rebels can take it over or factory can get bombed. Look at Aleppo guys, is it a place for good business? Perhaps for few crooks and corrupt officials, but not for capitalist business.
Capitalism doesn't like poor people either. Poor people don't have money to buy anything. Not good for business at all. The easiest way to make money is to open a business in rich country, where every citizen is well off. People will buy anything, even stuff they don't really need.

 

[Yetos]

I think e should start a thread what is capital, and what is capitalism.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I'm an evangelical Christian. I go to an evangelical College. I'm sure I know many more Evangelical Christians than you do. They can be intolerant or close minded or legalistic. They're also pretty well to do people. They're morally good(I'm not talking about adultery or whatever else. I'm talking about kindness, respect towards others and being unselfish) people. To say they're violent is absolutely wrong though. The rednecks in the communities who are known for violence and drinking go directly against their communities values. Equivulating rednecks with evangelical Christians, which is what you're doing, is false. They're two different subcultures within rural America.

In my experience evangelical Christians are peaceful and kind people. Because someone wants gun rights and wants to hunt doesn't mean they're violent. That's logical fallacy. The people who want gun rights are a non violent demographic. I know an evangelical pastor who owns an endless collection of guns and knifes, an endless collection of animal furs and bones, and he's very nice. The most violent people in America by far are Black men between the ages of 16 and 40. I'm not intending to be racist I'm just stating the fact. You can respond with that fact with your obsessive condemnation of "the white man" if you want, which is a type of bigotry you possess. I'm also mentioning it because you don't like to accept problems in the world where white people aren't the primary source of it. Statistically Evangelical Americans are probably some of the most non criminally violent.



This is true. A teacher of mine, who's evangelical, says there's sexism and subtle racism in evangelical churches. He has also mentioned they're statically the most involved fathers and husbands. Thinking women should only be in the kitchen and sexually abusing women/"bitches" are two different things. Donald Trump is the former and some evangelical Christians are the latter. Evangelical Christian men are often the opposite of the former. Like I said morally sound people.



Um.....how common are these attackes? "They" you mean one crazy guy, who I'm pretty sure never mentioned he was Christian at all. Lets be honest here your rant about evangelical Christians is hate speech. You hate us, be honest. Hate can have truth to it. What you do is exagerate the truth to justfy your hate. Your intolerance is no different from theirs. It's human intolerance. Just admit it man. When everyone in the left and right can admit where they're wrong and where they're hateful, we can have a much more peaceful and productive country.

IF YOU REACT WITH ME WITH AGGRESSIVE HATE THEN YOU'RE IMMATURE AND ALLOW CHILDISH EGO and TRIBALISM TO CONTROL YOUR BEHAVIOR

You are right. I agree with you.
I think that guns has nothing to do with violence. It depends on personal people's will.
I love guns. I would like to have an arsenal of guns or a collection if I would have the economic possibility, meanwhile I really hate the hunting or killing animals. I would never kill an animal. It is really very cruel.
Anyway, the Evangelists are very good people and as far as I know they founded the American democracy, if I am not wrong.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Anyway, the Evangelists are very good people and as far as I know they founded the American democracy, if I am not wrong.

As far as I know no group in particular founded the American democracy. Early America was full of Protestant groups from Britain and other parts of Europe but I'm pretty sure some of the founding fathers weren't even Christian.