Celtiberian hillforts / Castros celtiberos.

[MOESAN]

The only consistently valuable part of archaeogenetic studies is the raw data — it would be preferable if they didn’t write anything else. I call Olalde a “friend” because he’s basically illiterate in archaeology.

Since he’s illiterate in archaeology, he interprets the genetic data far too literally. (For this reason, I never take archaeogeneticists seriously when it comes to their hypotheses.)

The Hispanic Celts couldn’t have come from anywhere else because their average Most Recent Common Ancestor is consistently 200 years older than that of Central Europeans. Therefore, all DF27 lineages descend from Iberian DF27. As for L21 and U152, we won’t know until they carry out proper studies of present-day populations.

The Celtiberians were one half of the successors to the Bronze Age Cogotas I and II culture. During the Iron Age, they split into two groups: the Vettones in the west and the Celtiberians in the east. These two spoke distinct varieties of Celtic languages.

On the other hand, we have the Gallaeci, who spoke a third Celtic language, and the Lusitanians, who spoke the oldest documented form of Indo-European — predating Celtic entirely.

In the Iberian Peninsula, there were at least four different Indo-European languages spoken, while Tartessian, Iberian, and Basque were “isolated” languages (I personally relate them to Caucasian or Anatolian families).

The Lusitanians are the most direct descendants of the Bell Beaker populations in all of Europe. Z195* and ZZ12* date back to 2650 BCE, and the current frequency levels can only be explained if they have been native since the beginning of the Bell Beaker phenomenon around 2900 BCE.

All descendants of R1b-L151 were different types of Celts — in terms of behavior. They all knew how to breed horses and cattle, they were blacksmiths, and they mastered navigation and hydraulic engineering. That’s why they were the first to settle the interior of the peninsula — they knew how to modify river courses at will or locate aquifers.

As for the ancient DNA of R1b-L151> individuals from Central Europe, the south, and the central Mediterranean…

It depends on the admixture bias used to measure them. All the P312 samples I’ve seen in PCA plots usually show higher levels of Iberian DNA than any other.

I think easily enough that y-R1b-L27 was one of the BB's elements, but I don't know how to be sure the first ones in Iberia spoke a Celtic dialect. I doubt Celtic proper was already born around 2500 BC.
A question: when you say Z195* an ZZ12* date back to 2650 BCE, are you basing yourself on foundings of them in Iberia at those very time, or only on TMRCA or somethings like that? Thank beforehand for your answer (I avow i hav'nt all the Y-haplo's fo that time at hand).
My answer to you was justified by your citing of your "friend" Olalde. I didn't understand you were joking...

 

[Ziober]

 

[MOESAN]

View attachment 18328

This map is without scientific value, except (partially) for modern cultural remnants (not so strong in Iberia, IMO).The maximum expansion zone of western celtic historical data is a joke.

 

[—BoNe—]

I think easily enough that y-R1b-L27 was one of the BB's elements, but I don't know how to be sure the first ones in Iberia spoke a Celtic dialect. I doubt Celtic proper was already born around 2500 BC.
A question: when you say Z195* an ZZ12* date back to 2650 BCE, are you basing yourself on foundings of them in Iberia at those very time, or only on TMRCA or somethings like that? Thank beforehand for your answer (I avow i hav'nt all the Y-haplo's fo that time at hand).
My answer to you was justified by your citing of your "friend" Olalde. I didn't understand you were joking...

2650 BC is the TMRCA, and empirically, there is not a single sample of P312 before 2500 BC—only derived mutations exist from that point onwards.

All Bell Beakers were Proto-Celts; some evolved into other cultures like the Tartessians, Iberians, or Etruscans (changing language), while a large part continued with Bell Beaker cult practices.

The worship of Lugh and Epona fits perfectly with the maps defining the so-called “Celtic” zones.

All Spaniards who deny that we were Celts do so out of simple oikophobia, ignorance, or because it’s not amusing to admit being ‘bastards’ of a Northern European expansion.

It has turned out to be false that the Celts of Hispania were merely offshoots of northern Celts—because they are just as old, if not older.

We also have samples of L2 and L21 dating from 2300 BC. If there were migrations, they occurred in both directions from the beginning—but not as invasions or population replacements.

I believe that the 2,000 years of “peace” and diversification of all P312> lineages in Western Europe were due to trial by combat and the absence of large-scale wars, a situation that began to change when the Persians decided to invade the Mediterranean with 100,000 men.

The Lusitanians, who are the original Bell Beakers, spoke a form of Indo-European older than Celtic when the Romans arrived.

Could the first P312 have been Lugh himself, born somewhere in the Atlantic zone?*

To me, everything points to yes—and that this was not an Iron Age innovation, but a cult that dated back to the Bell Beaker era.

 

[MOESAN]

2650 BC is the TMRCA, and empirically, there is not a single sample of P312 before 2500 BC—only derived mutations exist from that point onwards.

All Bell Beakers were Proto-Celts; some evolved into other cultures like the Tartessians, Iberians, or Etruscans (changing language), while a large part continued with Bell Beaker cult practices.

The worship of Lugh and Epona fits perfectly with the maps defining the so-called “Celtic” zones.

All Spaniards who deny that we were Celts do so out of simple oikophobia, ignorance, or because it’s not amusing to admit being ‘bastards’ of a Northern European expansion.

It has turned out to be false that the Celts of Hispania were merely offshoots of northern Celts—because they are just as old, if not older.

We also have samples of L2 and L21 dating from 2300 BC. If there were migrations, they occurred in both directions from the beginning—but not as invasions or population replacements.

I believe that the 2,000 years of “peace” and diversification of all P312> lineages in Western Europe were due to trial by combat and the absence of large-scale wars, a situation that began to change when the Persians decided to invade the Mediterranean with 100,000 men.

The Lusitanians, who are the original Bell Beakers, spoke a form of Indo-European older than Celtic when the Romans arrived.

Could the first P312 have been Lugh himself, born somewhere in the Atlantic zone?*

To me, everything points to yes—and that this was not an Iron Age innovation, but a cult that dated back to the Bell Beaker era.

I think you project your theory on facts rather that the contrary. I cannoy be affirmative but you seem more affirmative than me. Lusitanian older than Celtic? What allow you to say that? The little we think we now is it showed links and with Celtic and with Italic (a bit like Ligurian even if in another way) what is not surprising if it was a descendant of ancient common language to almost all BB's. I don't buy the birth of P312 in the Atlantic regions. I see it in Central Europe with a baby boom more in West but not by force on the most western shores! What would interest me is the older y-haplos found here and there since L51.

 

[—BoNe—]

I think you project your theory on facts rather that the contrary. I cannoy be affirmative but you seem more affirmative than me. Lusitanian older than Celtic? What allow you to say that? The little we think we now is it showed links and with Celtic and with Italic (a bit like Ligurian even if in another way) what is not surprising if it was a descendant of ancient common language to almost all BB's. I don't buy the birth of P312 in the Atlantic regions. I see it in Central Europe with a baby boom more in West but not by force on the most western shores! What would interest me is the older y-haplos found here and there since L51.

It’s not enough to only rely on ancient samples.

If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

The vast majority of ancient lineages are extinct, which is why they rarely match the key factors.

One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

We don’t have that level of scrutiny for ZZ12, but if 35% is found in Portugal and Galicia, and it drops to 10% or less on the Mediterranean Iberian coast, and is barely present in France, that only leaves England. And nowhere in England does DF27 surpass 20%, and it’s split between Z195 and ZZ12.

The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.

They have burials from 3000–2500 BC with gold diadems from which DNA couldn’t be retrieved…

So why do people think the Portuguese weren’t the earliest Bell Beakers?

They’re not only highly likely to be the fathers of DF27—they could also be the source of U106, L21, and U152, having remained isolated since 4000 BC.

Between 2600–2400 BC is when four lines consolidated, but their origin cannot be explained by the extinct Samara L51 cousins from 3000 BC, nor by the Central European L151, who are also out of date.

All the I2 and G2 individuals from 4000–2500 BC in areas near the Bell Beaker sphere had about 10% steppe ancestry.

We’ve barely uncovered even 5% of what’s in Portugal.

As for whether Celtic or Lusitanian is older…

Languages aren’t my strength, but experts say it shows similarities to ancient Indo-European more than to Celtic. And between 2500–1000 BC, there could’ve been a hundred different transitional variants—so I don’t dwell too much on the language.

Even if Celtic invasions happened, they probably didn’t exceed 10%.

This is no longer about looking for Yamnaya—it’s about looking for proto-Bell Beakers. We left the steppe long before previously thought, despite all the Nordicist and Kurganist mental gymnastics.

For those with R1a, maybe yes. But for P312? No.

 

[MOESAN]

It’s not enough to only rely on ancient samples.

If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

The vast majority of ancient lineages are extinct, which is why they rarely match the key factors.

One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

We don’t have that level of scrutiny for ZZ12, but if 35% is found in Portugal and Galicia, and it drops to 10% or less on the Mediterranean Iberian coast, and is barely present in France, that only leaves England. And nowhere in England does DF27 surpass 20%, and it’s split between Z195 and ZZ12.

The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.

They have burials from 3000–2500 BC with gold diadems from which DNA couldn’t be retrieved…

So why do people think the Portuguese weren’t the earliest Bell Beakers?

They’re not only highly likely to be the fathers of DF27—they could also be the source of U106, L21, and U152, having remained isolated since 4000 BC.

Between 2600–2400 BC is when four lines consolidated, but their origin cannot be explained by the extinct Samara L51 cousins from 3000 BC, nor by the Central European L151, who are also out of date.

All the I2 and G2 individuals from 4000–2500 BC in areas near the Bell Beaker sphere had about 10% steppe ancestry.

We’ve barely uncovered even 5% of what’s in Portugal.

As for whether Celtic or Lusitanian is older…

Languages aren’t my strength, but experts say it shows similarities to ancient Indo-European more than to Celtic. And between 2500–1000 BC, there could’ve been a hundred different transitional variants—so I don’t dwell too much on the language.

Even if Celtic invasions happened, they probably didn’t exceed 10%.

This is no longer about looking for Yamnaya—it’s about looking for proto-Bell Beakers. We left the steppe long before previously thought, despite all the Nordicist and Kurganist mental gymnastics.

For those with R1a, maybe yes. But for P312? No.

You take the lineages branches which sustain your proper narrative, as they were brand new pop’s or ethnies born of nobody and from nowhere.



BoNe : If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

So if a rely on you, every new subclade is a brand new pop or ethny, so and all those subclades found in Iberia or elsewhere are distinct ethnies or al teast clans without any link between them ? (LOL) But, in a pop, even small enough, all the brethren don’t undergo the new mutations and they take part nevertheless in the culture and historical life of their clan or ethny. The further AND incomplete elimination of the oldest subclades is not only tied to sexual reproduction exclusion but also to the what we call in France the statistical « law of big numbers », where the new mutations reduce the number of ancestral clades until in fine they almost disappear like do the rare family names by time. What you call extinct lineages are not extinct, because some of them have given birth to the new ones ! A P312 found in a pop with a sea of DF27 or L21 or… is not by force the descendant of a clan on the decline drowned by a new clan of DF27 but one of the brothers of the DF27. All that can be said of every subclade. You are confusing Y-haplo’s and persons, also persons and populations !

Dinasties ar not pop’s. They need the help of all.

BTW your example of 500 L151* is very unexpectable there at this time.



BoNe : One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

Your example about Balearic Islands doesn’t send us any proof of what you say. I doesn’t prove Balearic ancestors came to Basque country at some time. It proves only they received probably early basic subclades from a place ignored by us, which could be Catalunya or Levante (Valencia) by instance. Concerning the Basque country I would rely more on Catalunya. Ancient subclades stayed dense in a place like these islands could be the result of a small pop. What is of importance is trying to control if the more recent subclades found besides the ancient ones mark a continuity in situ or newcomers.



BoNe : The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.



BB phenomenon is badly understood even todate. The origin of the pottery style seems lying in Portugal and SW Spain but the people responsible for it expansion or adoption into all Western and Central Europe is still kind of a mystery. If I read well some studies (Portuguese, Cardoso), the destination of the pottery during CA (Chalco-) was different between the outside or inside settlements of the fortresses, after contacts. More ‘household’ outside, more ‘prestige’ inside ? Captation by foreign elites ?

For I know Y-R1b post L51 and ‘steppe’ ancestry didn’t appear in Iberia before BA (and yet, in Portugal, rather a bit later for ‘steppe’… The first BB’s in Iberia were not often of Y-R1b. In Continental Europe the center of « coordination » would seem rather on the middle Rhine region, when it is harder to find some center on the Atlanticshores spite an active trade.



- It isn’t me who spoke of Lusitanian and Celtic but you.



ATW you seem having a lot of Y-haplo’s - ancient and current - for Iberia, which I lack, I’ve only old studies results out of worth now and one of 2022 on DF27. BTW this last one spoke of quick expansion of DF27 in Iberia, not of deep roots there. [...The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.

A main caveat in our study design is sampling: sample sizes were extremely low for some Iberian populations, and key areas such as Portugal, and especially France, could not be sampled. Still, in both cases R1b-DF27 frequencies are known and are compatible with our interpretation of the current results. Portugal showed subhaplogroup frequencies similar to those in northern and western Spain17, while France echoes the patterns in W Europe17. A more granular sampling of France, particularly in the southwest, would be required to fill the gap in our sampling and to increase the precision and certainty about the birthplace of R1b-DF27…] -

I would be very thankfull if you could provide us more detailed distribution of Y-R1b in ancient Iberia.

 

[—BoNe—]

You take the lineages branches which sustain your proper narrative, as they were brand new pop’s or ethnies born of nobody and from nowhere.



BoNe : If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

So if a rely on you, every new subclade is a brand new pop or ethny, so and all those subclades found in Iberia or elsewhere are distinct ethnies or al teast clans without any link between them ? (LOL) But, in a pop, even small enough, all the brethren don’t undergo the new mutations and they take part nevertheless in the culture and historical life of their clan or ethny. The further AND incomplete elimination of the oldest subclades is not only tied to sexual reproduction exclusion but also to the what we call in France the statistical « law of big numbers », where the new mutations reduce the number of ancestral clades until in fine they almost disappear like do the rare family names by time. What you call extinct lineages are not extinct, because some of them have given birth to the new ones ! A P312 found in a pop with a sea of DF27 or L21 or… is not by force the descendant of a clan on the decline drowned by a new clan of DF27 but one of the brothers of the DF27. All that can be said of every subclade. You are confusing Y-haplo’s and persons, also persons and populations !

Dinasties ar not pop’s. They need the help of all.

BTW your example of 500 L151* is very unexpectable there at this time.



BoNe : One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

Your example about Balearic Islands doesn’t send us any proof of what you say. I doesn’t prove Balearic ancestors came to Basque country at some time. It proves only they received probably early basic subclades from a place ignored by us, which could be Catalunya or Levante (Valencia) by instance. Concerning the Basque country I would rely more on Catalunya. Ancient subclades stayed dense in a place like these islands could be the result of a small pop. What is of importance is trying to control if the more recent subclades found besides the ancient ones mark a continuity in situ or newcomers.



BoNe : The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.



BB phenomenon is badly understood even todate. The origin of the pottery style seems lying in Portugal and SW Spain but the people responsible for it expansion or adoption into all Western and Central Europe is still kind of a mystery. If I read well some studies (Portuguese, Cardoso), the destination of the pottery during CA (Chalco-) was different between the outside or inside settlements of the fortresses, after contacts. More ‘household’ outside, more ‘prestige’ inside ? Captation by foreign elites ?

For I know Y-R1b post L51 and ‘steppe’ ancestry didn’t appear in Iberia before BA (and yet, in Portugal, rather a bit later for ‘steppe’… The first BB’s in Iberia were not often of Y-R1b. In Continental Europe the center of « coordination » would seem rather on the middle Rhine region, when it is harder to find some center on the Atlanticshores spite an active trade.



- It isn’t me who spoke of Lusitanian and Celtic but you.



ATW you seem having a lot of Y-haplo’s - ancient and current - for Iberia, which I lack, I’ve only old studies results out of worth now and one of 2022 on DF27. BTW this last one spoke of quick expansion of DF27 in Iberia, not of deep roots there. [...The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.

A main caveat in our study design is sampling: sample sizes were extremely low for some Iberian populations, and key areas such as Portugal, and especially France, could not be sampled. Still, in both cases R1b-DF27 frequencies are known and are compatible with our interpretation of the current results. Portugal showed subhaplogroup frequencies similar to those in northern and western Spain17, while France echoes the patterns in W Europe17. A more granular sampling of France, particularly in the southwest, would be required to fill the gap in our sampling and to increase the precision and certainty about the birthplace of R1b-DF27…] -

I would be very thankfull if you could provide us more detailed distribution of Y-R1b in ancient Iberia.

The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

All R1b are family whether they like it or not, but the proto-Bell Beaker focus should have high rates of P312*, U106*, A8051*, Z40481*, Z260*, and ZZ11. And it should be dated between 4000–2500 BC.

What we find all across Europe are already derived branches of P312 > L21, U152, and DF27, all post-2500 BC. None have been found on the steppe or anywhere else.

I don’t know where the information comes from claiming that steppe admixture only appeared in Iberia well into the Bronze Age, but I’ve read that many times and it makes me wonder if I’m actually living in some parallel universe.

First of all, the Yamnaya didn’t have 200% steppe ancestry—they only had about 40%.

If the steppe signature didn’t arrive until after 2000 BC, how do you explain this?

Portugal

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5428

www.theytree.com

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - (12% steppe, >3300 BC)

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5429

www.theytree.com

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 (10% steppe, >3000 BC)

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I11592

www.theytree.com

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - (14% steppe, >2800 BC)

12% of DNA is equivalent to a first cousin. Where did the Lusitanians get that percentage if the first R1b-L51> weren’t already in the area?

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I7691

www.theytree.com

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 (23% steppe, >2200 BC)

Spain

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - (24% steppe, >2500 BC)

Many people have claimed this sample is in ZZ12 and therefore would be DF27 (Iñigo Olalde or whoever does his BAM file refinements isn’t very good at it).

Ancient samples taken from the “8,000 Years of Iberia” paper (I didn’t compile them myself; I found them online and I believe there were about 150 R1b samples in total, so more than half would still be missing):

Iberos - Levante Norte y Sur.

*GBVPK (2.380 AC)-Narbona, Occitania HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195
*I3494 (1.836 AC)-Coveta del Frare, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b- DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1/b
*I1312d (1.782 AC)-Can Roqueta, Barcelona-Bronce Nordeste HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-HV0
*I3397 (1.741 AC)-Lloma de Betxí, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
*I3487 (1.675 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P310-Mit-H1e1/a
*I4559 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona Hap Y-R1b-P311-Mit-J1c1
*I4563 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona HapY-R1b- Df27-Z195-Mit-H1/H84
*I3486 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-H1q
*I3488 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0@195
*Pir001 (1.600 AC)-Cueva del Pirulejo, Córdoba-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-L23-Mit-K1a13
*I1836 (1.593 AC)-Cova del Gegant, Barcelona. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-U5a2/b3
*I8570 (1.400 AC)-Tossal Mortorum, Castellón. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3

*I3315 (861 AC)-Naveta des Tudons-C.Talayótica- HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b1
*I12641 (665 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0d
*I12640 (618 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1t

*I6491 (600 AC) Mas Gassol, Alcover, Tarragona HapY-R1b-PF7589-Mit-H4a1a
*I8211 (475 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Mit-HV0
*I8344 (450 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera Hap Y-R1b1a/1a-Mit-H3
*I12410 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H
*I12877 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-J1c1
*I8210-(425 AC)- Ampurias (Gerona) Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b1a/1a2-Mit-U5b3
*I8209 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U1a1/a
*I8212 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H27
*I8341 (425 AC)- Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1
*I3323 (284 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-X2b
*I3324 (276 AC)-Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1
*I3496 (250 AC)-Turó de Can Oliver, Barcelona-Layetanos HapY-R1b-Df27-Mit-H1e1/a
*I3326 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-J1c
*I3327 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a
*I3321 (200 AC) El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U3a
*I3320 (200 AC)-El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones. HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-I1
*I8206 (200 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-H7a1

Atlántico- Galicia, Portugal - Galaicos-Lusitanos

*I7691 (1.950 AC)-Monte da Cabida, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-J1c1
*Tv32032 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-M269-Mit- X2b@226
*Tv3831 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1-
*Mg104 (1.507 AC)-Monte do Gato, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

*I7687 (950 AC)-Gruta de Medronhal-Cultura Lusitana HapY-R1b-L502-Mit-V

Cantábrico-Vizcaya- Astures Trasmontanos, Galaicos

*I3238 (2.350 AC)-Cueva de la Paloma, Asturias. HapY-R1b1a/1a2a-L49-Mit-H3

Vascos

*AU52921 (1600 AC)-LaGuardia - Alava, Basque Nativo HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-H3ap

Meseta Norte-Castilla la Vieja, Álava -Astures Cismontanos, Vacceos, Vettones, Turmogos, Autrigones

*EHU002 (2.434 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
*EHU001 (2.165 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-U5a1/b1
*I5665 (2.133 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a24/a
*VAD001 (1.741 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-U5b1
*I6470 (1.651 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1
*VAD005 (1.644 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo Meseta HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a2
*VAD002 (1.608 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS5082-Mit-J2b1/a2
*I1840 (1.557 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-H3ap
*I2472 (1.515 AC)-El Sotillo (Álava) Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-K1a
*Esp005 (1.500 AC)-Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a
*I3492 (1.500 AC)-Los Tordillos, Salamanca-Cogotas I HapY-R1b-M269-Mit U5b1
*VAD004 (1.464 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3
*I2470 (1.321 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-J2a1/a1
*I12209 (1.289 AC)-La Requejada, Valladolid-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1ah

Meseta Sur-Castilla la Nueva Carpetanos, Oretanos

*I6539 (2.301 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2b3
*I6588 (2.250 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-U5b2/b3
*I6472 (2.250 AC)-La Magdalena, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-U152-PF6658-Mit-HV0b
*I3485 (2.200 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete, Ciudad Real-Campaniforme HapY-R1b-CTS2229-Mit-J1c1
*I3756 (1.897 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-H1
*I12809 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-H1j
*I12855 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-K1a
*I6618 (1.786 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Edad del Bronce HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

Andalucía-Andalucía Occidental-Andalucía Oriental - Turdetanos, Bastetanos

*I10939 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray, Cádiz-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a3/a
*I10940 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS3876-Mit-H1e1/a
*I10941 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2e1
*I12561 (600 AC)-La Angorrilla, Sevilla-Ilipa, Cultura Tartésica HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-H1.

Lastly, I’m sharing some image compilations with you. The genealogical tree with images is from the thesis file I posted in the DF27* section of the forum. I’ve combined the basal images with the regular ones and marked the percentage each one reaches to simplify everything visually. In my opinion, there’s a 90% chance that DF27 is native to Iberia. Do we need more evidence? Yes, but to me, this data completely changes the idea that the DF27 arrived after 2000 BC.

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

The Citânia de Briteiros is an Iron Age celtic archaeological site located on top of the São Romão hill, in the former parish of Salvador de Briteiros, in the municipality of Guimarães, Portugal. It consists of a large fortified settlement, consisting of a central urban nucleus at the top of the hill, and a set of walls that defend the settlement itself. It is considered one of the main destroyed sites of proto-history in the country, having allowed an in-depth study of the castreja culture and urban organization of the north of the country. Traces of a complex urban organization were found, with a network of streets delimiting public and private areas, and a large set of residences of different shapes, two bathhouses, in one of which the famous slab known as Pedra Formosa was discovered, and a central meeting building.

 

[MOESAN]

It’s not enough to only rely on ancient samples.

If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

The vast majority of ancient lineages are extinct, which is why they rarely match the key factors.

One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

We don’t have that level of scrutiny for ZZ12, but if 35% is found in Portugal and Galicia, and it drops to 10% or less on the Mediterranean Iberian coast, and is barely present in France, that only leaves England. And nowhere in England does DF27 surpass 20%, and it’s split between Z195 and ZZ12.

The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.

They have burials from 3000–2500 BC with gold diadems from which DNA couldn’t be retrieved…

So why do people think the Portuguese weren’t the earliest Bell Beakers?

They’re not only highly likely to be the fathers of DF27—they could also be the source of U106, L21, and U152, having remained isolated since 4000 BC.

Between 2600–2400 BC is when four lines consolidated, but their origin cannot be explained by the extinct Samara L51 cousins from 3000 BC, nor by the Central European L151, who are also out of date.

All the I2 and G2 individuals from 4000–2500 BC in areas near the Bell Beaker sphere had about 10% steppe ancestry.

We’ve barely uncovered even 5% of what’s in Portugal.

As for whether Celtic or Lusitanian is older…

Languages aren’t my strength, but experts say it shows similarities to ancient Indo-European more than to Celtic. And between 2500–1000 BC, there could’ve been a hundred different transitional variants—so I don’t dwell too much on the language.

Even if Celtic invasions happened, they probably didn’t exceed 10%.

This is no longer about looking for Yamnaya—it’s about looking for proto-Bell Beakers. We left the steppe long before previously thought, despite all the Nordicist and Kurganist mental gymnastics.

For those with R1a, maybe yes. But for P312? No.

You take the lineages branches which sustain your proper narrative, as they were brand new pop’s or ethnies born of nobody and from nowhere.



BoNe : If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

So if a rely on you, every new subclade is a brand new pop or ethny, so and all those subclades found in Iberia or elsewhere are distinct ethnies or al teast clans without any link between them ? (LOL) But, in a pop, even small enough, all the brethren don’t undergo the new mutations and they take part nevertheless in the culture and historical life of their clan or ethny. The further AND incomplete elimination of the oldest subclades is not only tied to sexual reproduction exclusion but also to the what we call in France the statistical « law of big numbers », where the new mutations reduce the number of ancestral clades until in fine they almost disappear like do the rare family names by time. What you call extinct lineages are not extinct, because some of them have given birth to the new ones ! A P312 found in a pop with a sea of DF27 or L21 or… is not by force the descendant of a clan on the decline drowned by a new clan of DF27 but one of the brothers of the DF27. All that can be said of every subclade. You are confusing Y-haplo’s and persons, also persons and populations !

Dinasties ar not pop’s. They need the help of all.

BTW your example of 500 L151* is very unexpectable there at this time.



BoNe : One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

Your example about Balearic Islands doesn’t send us any proof of what you say. I doesn’t prove Balearic ancestors came to Basque country at some time. It proves only they received probably early basic subclades from a place ignored by us, which could be Catalunya or Levante (Valencia) by instance. Concerning the Basque country I would rely more on Catalunya. Ancient subclades stayed dense in a place like these islands could be the result of a small pop. What is of importance is trying to control if the more recent subclades found besides the ancient ones mark a continuity in situ or newcomers.



BoNe : The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.



BB phenomenon is badly understood even todate. The origin of the pottery style seems lying in Portugal and SW Spain but the people responsible for it expansion or adoption into all Western and Central Europe is still kind of a mystery. If I read well some studies (Portuguese, Cardoso), the destination of the pottery during CA (Chalco-) was different between the outside or inside settlements of the fortresses, after contacts. More ‘household’ outside, more ‘prestige’ inside ? Captation by foreign elites ?

For I know Y-R1b post L51 and ‘steppe’ ancestry didn’t appear in Iberia before BA (and yet, in Portugal, rather a bit later for ‘steppe’… The first BB’s in Iberia were not often of Y-R1b. In Continental Europe the center of « coordination » would seem rather on the middle Rhine region, when it is harder to find some center on the Atlanticshores spite an active trade.



- It isn’t me who spoke of Lusitanian and Celtic but you.



ATW you seem having a lot of Y-haplo’s - ancient and current - for Iberia, which I lack, I’ve only old studies results out of worth now and one of 2022 on DF27. BTW this last one spoke of quick expansion of DF27 in Iberia, not of deep roots there. [...The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.

A main caveat in our study design is sampling: sample sizes were extremely low for some Iberian populations, and key areas such as Portugal, and especially France, could not be sampled. Still, in both cases R1b-DF27 frequencies are known and are compatible with our interpretation of the current results. Portugal showed subhaplogroup frequencies similar to those in northern and western Spain17, while France echoes the patterns in W Europe17. A more granular sampling of France, particularly in the southwest, would be required to fill the gap in our sampling and to increase the precision and certainty about the birthplace of R1b-DF27…] -

I would be very thankfull if you could provide us more detailed distribution of Y-R1b in ancient Iberia.

The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

All R1b are family whether they like it or not, but the proto-Bell Beaker focus should have high rates of P312*, U106*, A8051*, Z40481*, Z260*, and ZZ11. And it should be dated between 4000–2500 BC.

What we find all across Europe are already derived branches of P312 > L21, U152, and DF27, all post-2500 BC. None have been found on the steppe or anywhere else.

I don’t know where the information comes from claiming that steppe admixture only appeared in Iberia well into the Bronze Age, but I’ve read that many times and it makes me wonder if I’m actually living in some parallel universe.

First of all, the Yamnaya didn’t have 200% steppe ancestry—they only had about 40%.

If the steppe signature didn’t arrive until after 2000 BC, how do you explain this?

Portugal

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5428

www.theytree.com

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - (12% steppe, >3300 BC)

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5429

www.theytree.com

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 (10% steppe, >3000 BC)

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I11592

www.theytree.com

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - (14% steppe, >2800 BC)

12% of DNA is equivalent to a first cousin. Where did the Lusitanians get that percentage if the first R1b-L51> weren’t already in the area?

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I7691

www.theytree.com

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 (23% steppe, >2200 BC)

Spain

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - (24% steppe, >2500 BC)

Many people have claimed this sample is in ZZ12 and therefore would be DF27 (Iñigo Olalde or whoever does his BAM file refinements isn’t very good at it).

Ancient samples taken from the “8,000 Years of Iberia” paper (I didn’t compile them myself; I found them online and I believe there were about 150 R1b samples in total, so more than half would still be missing):

Iberos - Levante Norte y Sur.

*GBVPK (2.380 AC)-Narbona, Occitania HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195
*I3494 (1.836 AC)-Coveta del Frare, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b- DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1/b
*I1312d (1.782 AC)-Can Roqueta, Barcelona-Bronce Nordeste HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-HV0
*I3397 (1.741 AC)-Lloma de Betxí, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
*I3487 (1.675 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P310-Mit-H1e1/a
*I4559 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona Hap Y-R1b-P311-Mit-J1c1
*I4563 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona HapY-R1b- Df27-Z195-Mit-H1/H84
*I3486 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-H1q
*I3488 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0@195
*Pir001 (1.600 AC)-Cueva del Pirulejo, Córdoba-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-L23-Mit-K1a13
*I1836 (1.593 AC)-Cova del Gegant, Barcelona. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-U5a2/b3
*I8570 (1.400 AC)-Tossal Mortorum, Castellón. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3

*I3315 (861 AC)-Naveta des Tudons-C.Talayótica- HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b1
*I12641 (665 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0d
*I12640 (618 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1t

*I6491 (600 AC) Mas Gassol, Alcover, Tarragona HapY-R1b-PF7589-Mit-H4a1a
*I8211 (475 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Mit-HV0
*I8344 (450 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera Hap Y-R1b1a/1a-Mit-H3
*I12410 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H
*I12877 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-J1c1
*I8210-(425 AC)- Ampurias (Gerona) Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b1a/1a2-Mit-U5b3
*I8209 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U1a1/a
*I8212 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H27
*I8341 (425 AC)- Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1
*I3323 (284 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-X2b
*I3324 (276 AC)-Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1
*I3496 (250 AC)-Turó de Can Oliver, Barcelona-Layetanos HapY-R1b-Df27-Mit-H1e1/a
*I3326 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-J1c
*I3327 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a
*I3321 (200 AC) El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U3a
*I3320 (200 AC)-El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones. HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-I1
*I8206 (200 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-H7a1

Atlántico- Galicia, Portugal - Galaicos-Lusitanos

*I7691 (1.950 AC)-Monte da Cabida, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-J1c1
*Tv32032 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-M269-Mit- X2b@226
*Tv3831 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1-
*Mg104 (1.507 AC)-Monte do Gato, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

*I7687 (950 AC)-Gruta de Medronhal-Cultura Lusitana HapY-R1b-L502-Mit-V

Cantábrico-Vizcaya- Astures Trasmontanos, Galaicos

*I3238 (2.350 AC)-Cueva de la Paloma, Asturias. HapY-R1b1a/1a2a-L49-Mit-H3

Vascos

*AU52921 (1600 AC)-LaGuardia - Alava, Basque Nativo HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-H3ap

Meseta Norte-Castilla la Vieja, Álava -Astures Cismontanos, Vacceos, Vettones, Turmogos, Autrigones

*EHU002 (2.434 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
*EHU001 (2.165 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-U5a1/b1
*I5665 (2.133 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a24/a
*VAD001 (1.741 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-U5b1
*I6470 (1.651 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1
*VAD005 (1.644 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo Meseta HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a2
*VAD002 (1.608 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS5082-Mit-J2b1/a2
*I1840 (1.557 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-H3ap
*I2472 (1.515 AC)-El Sotillo (Álava) Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-K1a
*Esp005 (1.500 AC)-Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a
*I3492 (1.500 AC)-Los Tordillos, Salamanca-Cogotas I HapY-R1b-M269-Mit U5b1
*VAD004 (1.464 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3
*I2470 (1.321 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-J2a1/a1
*I12209 (1.289 AC)-La Requejada, Valladolid-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1ah

Meseta Sur-Castilla la Nueva Carpetanos, Oretanos

*I6539 (2.301 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2b3
*I6588 (2.250 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-U5b2/b3
*I6472 (2.250 AC)-La Magdalena, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-U152-PF6658-Mit-HV0b
*I3485 (2.200 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete, Ciudad Real-Campaniforme HapY-R1b-CTS2229-Mit-J1c1
*I3756 (1.897 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-H1
*I12809 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-H1j
*I12855 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-K1a
*I6618 (1.786 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Edad del Bronce HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

Andalucía-Andalucía Occidental-Andalucía Oriental - Turdetanos, Bastetanos

*I10939 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray, Cádiz-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a3/a
*I10940 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS3876-Mit-H1e1/a
*I10941 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2e1
*I12561 (600 AC)-La Angorrilla, Sevilla-Ilipa, Cultura Tartésica HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-H1.

Lastly, I’m sharing some image compilations with you. The genealogical tree with images is from the thesis file I posted in the DF27* section of the forum. I’ve combined the basal images with the regular ones and marked the percentage each one reaches to simplify everything visually. In my opinion, there’s a 90% chance that DF27 is native to Iberia. Do we need more evidence? Yes, but to me, this data completely changes the idea that the DF27 arrived after 2000 BC.


View attachment 18338View attachment 18339View attachment 18340View attachment 18341

You say:
The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

Me: some"cousin" subclades in a same population ar brethren, not strangers! if some Y-close lineages disappear or are without success they remain beared by people of the same source who eventually passed their autosomes to prosperity, to successive generations and are not by force "dead ends"; all the way, they are collectively/culturally "ancestors " at the same level than more successfull Y-haplo's subclades. A mutation on a Y-lineages doesn't make a new pop, at least not before some travels and time. It's a question of comprehension.
I' ll see the rest of your post: BTW what is those 'AC' in datations: our era (not BC), so not efficient for your demonstration?
&: at an individual level or in small groups it's almost sure some Steppic people arrived in Central Europe about 4000 BC.
&&: Yamnaya: they were 'steppe' at high level: 40% would be perhaps the EHG level, I think...

 

[MOESAN]

It’s not enough to only rely on ancient samples.

If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

The vast majority of ancient lineages are extinct, which is why they rarely match the key factors.

One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

We don’t have that level of scrutiny for ZZ12, but if 35% is found in Portugal and Galicia, and it drops to 10% or less on the Mediterranean Iberian coast, and is barely present in France, that only leaves England. And nowhere in England does DF27 surpass 20%, and it’s split between Z195 and ZZ12.

The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.

They have burials from 3000–2500 BC with gold diadems from which DNA couldn’t be retrieved…

So why do people think the Portuguese weren’t the earliest Bell Beakers?

They’re not only highly likely to be the fathers of DF27—they could also be the source of U106, L21, and U152, having remained isolated since 4000 BC.

Between 2600–2400 BC is when four lines consolidated, but their origin cannot be explained by the extinct Samara L51 cousins from 3000 BC, nor by the Central European L151, who are also out of date.

All the I2 and G2 individuals from 4000–2500 BC in areas near the Bell Beaker sphere had about 10% steppe ancestry.

We’ve barely uncovered even 5% of what’s in Portugal.

As for whether Celtic or Lusitanian is older…

Languages aren’t my strength, but experts say it shows similarities to ancient Indo-European more than to Celtic. And between 2500–1000 BC, there could’ve been a hundred different transitional variants—so I don’t dwell too much on the language.

Even if Celtic invasions happened, they probably didn’t exceed 10%.

This is no longer about looking for Yamnaya—it’s about looking for proto-Bell Beakers. We left the steppe long before previously thought, despite all the Nordicist and Kurganist mental gymnastics.

For those with R1a, maybe yes. But for P312? No.

You take the lineages branches which sustain your proper narrative, as they were brand new pop’s or ethnies born of nobody and from nowhere.



BoNe : If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

So if a rely on you, every new subclade is a brand new pop or ethny, so and all those subclades found in Iberia or elsewhere are distinct ethnies or al teast clans without any link between them ? (LOL) But, in a pop, even small enough, all the brethren don’t undergo the new mutations and they take part nevertheless in the culture and historical life of their clan or ethny. The further AND incomplete elimination of the oldest subclades is not only tied to sexual reproduction exclusion but also to the what we call in France the statistical « law of big numbers », where the new mutations reduce the number of ancestral clades until in fine they almost disappear like do the rare family names by time. What you call extinct lineages are not extinct, because some of them have given birth to the new ones ! A P312 found in a pop with a sea of DF27 or L21 or… is not by force the descendant of a clan on the decline drowned by a new clan of DF27 but one of the brothers of the DF27. All that can be said of every subclade. You are confusing Y-haplo’s and persons, also persons and populations !

Dinasties ar not pop’s. They need the help of all.

BTW your example of 500 L151* is very unexpectable there at this time.



BoNe : One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

Your example about Balearic Islands doesn’t send us any proof of what you say. I doesn’t prove Balearic ancestors came to Basque country at some time. It proves only they received probably early basic subclades from a place ignored by us, which could be Catalunya or Levante (Valencia) by instance. Concerning the Basque country I would rely more on Catalunya. Ancient subclades stayed dense in a place like these islands could be the result of a small pop. What is of importance is trying to control if the more recent subclades found besides the ancient ones mark a continuity in situ or newcomers.



BoNe : The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.



BB phenomenon is badly understood even todate. The origin of the pottery style seems lying in Portugal and SW Spain but the people responsible for it expansion or adoption into all Western and Central Europe is still kind of a mystery. If I read well some studies (Portuguese, Cardoso), the destination of the pottery during CA (Chalco-) was different between the outside or inside settlements of the fortresses, after contacts. More ‘household’ outside, more ‘prestige’ inside ? Captation by foreign elites ?

For I know Y-R1b post L51 and ‘steppe’ ancestry didn’t appear in Iberia before BA (and yet, in Portugal, rather a bit later for ‘steppe’… The first BB’s in Iberia were not often of Y-R1b. In Continental Europe the center of « coordination » would seem rather on the middle Rhine region, when it is harder to find some center on the Atlanticshores spite an active trade.



- It isn’t me who spoke of Lusitanian and Celtic but you.



ATW you seem having a lot of Y-haplo’s - ancient and current - for Iberia, which I lack, I’ve only old studies results out of worth now and one of 2022 on DF27. BTW this last one spoke of quick expansion of DF27 in Iberia, not of deep roots there. [...The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.

A main caveat in our study design is sampling: sample sizes were extremely low for some Iberian populations, and key areas such as Portugal, and especially France, could not be sampled. Still, in both cases R1b-DF27 frequencies are known and are compatible with our interpretation of the current results. Portugal showed subhaplogroup frequencies similar to those in northern and western Spain17, while France echoes the patterns in W Europe17. A more granular sampling of France, particularly in the southwest, would be required to fill the gap in our sampling and to increase the precision and certainty about the birthplace of R1b-DF27…] -

I would be very thankfull if you could provide us more detailed distribution of Y-R1b in ancient Iberia.

The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

All R1b are family whether they like it or not, but the proto-Bell Beaker focus should have high rates of P312*, U106*, A8051*, Z40481*, Z260*, and ZZ11. And it should be dated between 4000–2500 BC.

What we find all across Europe are already derived branches of P312 > L21, U152, and DF27, all post-2500 BC. None have been found on the steppe or anywhere else.

I don’t know where the information comes from claiming that steppe admixture only appeared in Iberia well into the Bronze Age, but I’ve read that many times and it makes me wonder if I’m actually living in some parallel universe.

First of all, the Yamnaya didn’t have 200% steppe ancestry—they only had about 40%.

If the steppe signature didn’t arrive until after 2000 BC, how do you explain this?

Portugal

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5428

www.theytree.com

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - (12% steppe, >3300 BC)

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5429

www.theytree.com

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 (10% steppe, >3000 BC)

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I11592

www.theytree.com

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - (14% steppe, >2800 BC)

12% of DNA is equivalent to a first cousin. Where did the Lusitanians get that percentage if the first R1b-L51> weren’t already in the area?

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I7691

www.theytree.com

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 (23% steppe, >2200 BC)

Spain

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - (24% steppe, >2500 BC)

Many people have claimed this sample is in ZZ12 and therefore would be DF27 (Iñigo Olalde or whoever does his BAM file refinements isn’t very good at it).

Ancient samples taken from the “8,000 Years of Iberia” paper (I didn’t compile them myself; I found them online and I believe there were about 150 R1b samples in total, so more than half would still be missing):

Iberos - Levante Norte y Sur.

*GBVPK (2.380 AC)-Narbona, Occitania HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195
*I3494 (1.836 AC)-Coveta del Frare, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b- DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1/b
*I1312d (1.782 AC)-Can Roqueta, Barcelona-Bronce Nordeste HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-HV0
*I3397 (1.741 AC)-Lloma de Betxí, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
*I3487 (1.675 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P310-Mit-H1e1/a
*I4559 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona Hap Y-R1b-P311-Mit-J1c1
*I4563 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona HapY-R1b- Df27-Z195-Mit-H1/H84
*I3486 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-H1q
*I3488 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0@195
*Pir001 (1.600 AC)-Cueva del Pirulejo, Córdoba-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-L23-Mit-K1a13
*I1836 (1.593 AC)-Cova del Gegant, Barcelona. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-U5a2/b3
*I8570 (1.400 AC)-Tossal Mortorum, Castellón. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3

*I3315 (861 AC)-Naveta des Tudons-C.Talayótica- HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b1
*I12641 (665 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0d
*I12640 (618 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1t

*I6491 (600 AC) Mas Gassol, Alcover, Tarragona HapY-R1b-PF7589-Mit-H4a1a
*I8211 (475 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Mit-HV0
*I8344 (450 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera Hap Y-R1b1a/1a-Mit-H3
*I12410 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H
*I12877 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-J1c1
*I8210-(425 AC)- Ampurias (Gerona) Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b1a/1a2-Mit-U5b3
*I8209 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U1a1/a
*I8212 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H27
*I8341 (425 AC)- Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1
*I3323 (284 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-X2b
*I3324 (276 AC)-Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1
*I3496 (250 AC)-Turó de Can Oliver, Barcelona-Layetanos HapY-R1b-Df27-Mit-H1e1/a
*I3326 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-J1c
*I3327 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a
*I3321 (200 AC) El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U3a
*I3320 (200 AC)-El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones. HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-I1
*I8206 (200 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-H7a1

Atlántico- Galicia, Portugal - Galaicos-Lusitanos

*I7691 (1.950 AC)-Monte da Cabida, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-J1c1
*Tv32032 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-M269-Mit- X2b@226
*Tv3831 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1-
*Mg104 (1.507 AC)-Monte do Gato, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

*I7687 (950 AC)-Gruta de Medronhal-Cultura Lusitana HapY-R1b-L502-Mit-V

Cantábrico-Vizcaya- Astures Trasmontanos, Galaicos

*I3238 (2.350 AC)-Cueva de la Paloma, Asturias. HapY-R1b1a/1a2a-L49-Mit-H3

Vascos

*AU52921 (1600 AC)-LaGuardia - Alava, Basque Nativo HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-H3ap

Meseta Norte-Castilla la Vieja, Álava -Astures Cismontanos, Vacceos, Vettones, Turmogos, Autrigones

*EHU002 (2.434 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
*EHU001 (2.165 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-U5a1/b1
*I5665 (2.133 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a24/a
*VAD001 (1.741 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-U5b1
*I6470 (1.651 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1
*VAD005 (1.644 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo Meseta HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a2
*VAD002 (1.608 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS5082-Mit-J2b1/a2
*I1840 (1.557 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-H3ap
*I2472 (1.515 AC)-El Sotillo (Álava) Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-K1a
*Esp005 (1.500 AC)-Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a
*I3492 (1.500 AC)-Los Tordillos, Salamanca-Cogotas I HapY-R1b-M269-Mit U5b1
*VAD004 (1.464 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3
*I2470 (1.321 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-J2a1/a1
*I12209 (1.289 AC)-La Requejada, Valladolid-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1ah

Meseta Sur-Castilla la Nueva Carpetanos, Oretanos

*I6539 (2.301 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2b3
*I6588 (2.250 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-U5b2/b3
*I6472 (2.250 AC)-La Magdalena, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-U152-PF6658-Mit-HV0b
*I3485 (2.200 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete, Ciudad Real-Campaniforme HapY-R1b-CTS2229-Mit-J1c1
*I3756 (1.897 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-H1
*I12809 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-H1j
*I12855 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-K1a
*I6618 (1.786 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Edad del Bronce HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

Andalucía-Andalucía Occidental-Andalucía Oriental - Turdetanos, Bastetanos

*I10939 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray, Cádiz-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a3/a
*I10940 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS3876-Mit-H1e1/a
*I10941 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2e1
*I12561 (600 AC)-La Angorrilla, Sevilla-Ilipa, Cultura Tartésica HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-H1.

Lastly, I’m sharing some image compilations with you. The genealogical tree with images is from the thesis file I posted in the DF27* section of the forum. I’ve combined the basal images with the regular ones and marked the percentage each one reaches to simplify everything visually. In my opinion, there’s a 90% chance that DF27 is native to Iberia. Do we need more evidence? Yes, but to me, this data completely changes the idea that the DF27 arrived after 2000 BC.


View attachment 18338View attachment 18339View attachment 18340View attachment 18341

You say:
The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

Me: some"cousin" subclades in a same population ar brethren, not strangers! if some Y-close lineages disappear or are without success they remain beared by people of the same source who eventually passed their autosomes to prosperity, to successive generations and are not by force "dead ends"; all the way, they are collectively/culturally "ancestors " at the same level than more successfull Y-haplo's subclades. A mutation on a Y-lineages doesn't make a new pop, at least not before some travels and time. It's a question of comprehension.
I' ll see the rest of your post: BTW what is those 'AC' in datations: our era (not BC), so not efficient for your demonstration?
&: at an individual level or in small groups it's almost sure some Steppic people arrived in Central Europe about 4000 BC.
&&: Yamnaya: they were 'steppe' at high level: 40% would be perhaps the EHG level, I think...

 

[MOESAN]

It’s not enough to only rely on ancient samples.

If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

The vast majority of ancient lineages are extinct, which is why they rarely match the key factors.

One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

We don’t have that level of scrutiny for ZZ12, but if 35% is found in Portugal and Galicia, and it drops to 10% or less on the Mediterranean Iberian coast, and is barely present in France, that only leaves England. And nowhere in England does DF27 surpass 20%, and it’s split between Z195 and ZZ12.

The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.

They have burials from 3000–2500 BC with gold diadems from which DNA couldn’t be retrieved…

So why do people think the Portuguese weren’t the earliest Bell Beakers?

They’re not only highly likely to be the fathers of DF27—they could also be the source of U106, L21, and U152, having remained isolated since 4000 BC.

Between 2600–2400 BC is when four lines consolidated, but their origin cannot be explained by the extinct Samara L51 cousins from 3000 BC, nor by the Central European L151, who are also out of date.

All the I2 and G2 individuals from 4000–2500 BC in areas near the Bell Beaker sphere had about 10% steppe ancestry.

We’ve barely uncovered even 5% of what’s in Portugal.

As for whether Celtic or Lusitanian is older…

Languages aren’t my strength, but experts say it shows similarities to ancient Indo-European more than to Celtic. And between 2500–1000 BC, there could’ve been a hundred different transitional variants—so I don’t dwell too much on the language.

Even if Celtic invasions happened, they probably didn’t exceed 10%.

This is no longer about looking for Yamnaya—it’s about looking for proto-Bell Beakers. We left the steppe long before previously thought, despite all the Nordicist and Kurganist mental gymnastics.

For those with R1a, maybe yes. But for P312? No.

You take the lineages branches which sustain your proper narrative, as they were brand new pop’s or ethnies born of nobody and from nowhere.



BoNe : If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

So if a rely on you, every new subclade is a brand new pop or ethny, so and all those subclades found in Iberia or elsewhere are distinct ethnies or al teast clans without any link between them ? (LOL) But, in a pop, even small enough, all the brethren don’t undergo the new mutations and they take part nevertheless in the culture and historical life of their clan or ethny. The further AND incomplete elimination of the oldest subclades is not only tied to sexual reproduction exclusion but also to the what we call in France the statistical « law of big numbers », where the new mutations reduce the number of ancestral clades until in fine they almost disappear like do the rare family names by time. What you call extinct lineages are not extinct, because some of them have given birth to the new ones ! A P312 found in a pop with a sea of DF27 or L21 or… is not by force the descendant of a clan on the decline drowned by a new clan of DF27 but one of the brothers of the DF27. All that can be said of every subclade. You are confusing Y-haplo’s and persons, also persons and populations !

Dinasties ar not pop’s. They need the help of all.

BTW your example of 500 L151* is very unexpectable there at this time.



BoNe : One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

Your example about Balearic Islands doesn’t send us any proof of what you say. I doesn’t prove Balearic ancestors came to Basque country at some time. It proves only they received probably early basic subclades from a place ignored by us, which could be Catalunya or Levante (Valencia) by instance. Concerning the Basque country I would rely more on Catalunya. Ancient subclades stayed dense in a place like these islands could be the result of a small pop. What is of importance is trying to control if the more recent subclades found besides the ancient ones mark a continuity in situ or newcomers.



BoNe : The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.



BB phenomenon is badly understood even todate. The origin of the pottery style seems lying in Portugal and SW Spain but the people responsible for it expansion or adoption into all Western and Central Europe is still kind of a mystery. If I read well some studies (Portuguese, Cardoso), the destination of the pottery during CA (Chalco-) was different between the outside or inside settlements of the fortresses, after contacts. More ‘household’ outside, more ‘prestige’ inside ? Captation by foreign elites ?

For I know Y-R1b post L51 and ‘steppe’ ancestry didn’t appear in Iberia before BA (and yet, in Portugal, rather a bit later for ‘steppe’… The first BB’s in Iberia were not often of Y-R1b. In Continental Europe the center of « coordination » would seem rather on the middle Rhine region, when it is harder to find some center on the Atlanticshores spite an active trade.



- It isn’t me who spoke of Lusitanian and Celtic but you.



ATW you seem having a lot of Y-haplo’s - ancient and current - for Iberia, which I lack, I’ve only old studies results out of worth now and one of 2022 on DF27. BTW this last one spoke of quick expansion of DF27 in Iberia, not of deep roots there. [...The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.

A main caveat in our study design is sampling: sample sizes were extremely low for some Iberian populations, and key areas such as Portugal, and especially France, could not be sampled. Still, in both cases R1b-DF27 frequencies are known and are compatible with our interpretation of the current results. Portugal showed subhaplogroup frequencies similar to those in northern and western Spain17, while France echoes the patterns in W Europe17. A more granular sampling of France, particularly in the southwest, would be required to fill the gap in our sampling and to increase the precision and certainty about the birthplace of R1b-DF27…] -

I would be very thankfull if you could provide us more detailed distribution of Y-R1b in ancient Iberia.

The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

All R1b are family whether they like it or not, but the proto-Bell Beaker focus should have high rates of P312*, U106*, A8051*, Z40481*, Z260*, and ZZ11. And it should be dated between 4000–2500 BC.

What we find all across Europe are already derived branches of P312 > L21, U152, and DF27, all post-2500 BC. None have been found on the steppe or anywhere else.

I don’t know where the information comes from claiming that steppe admixture only appeared in Iberia well into the Bronze Age, but I’ve read that many times and it makes me wonder if I’m actually living in some parallel universe.

First of all, the Yamnaya didn’t have 200% steppe ancestry—they only had about 40%.

If the steppe signature didn’t arrive until after 2000 BC, how do you explain this?

Portugal

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5428

www.theytree.com

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - (12% steppe, >3300 BC)

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5429

www.theytree.com

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 (10% steppe, >3000 BC)

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I11592

www.theytree.com

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - (14% steppe, >2800 BC)

12% of DNA is equivalent to a first cousin. Where did the Lusitanians get that percentage if the first R1b-L51> weren’t already in the area?

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I7691

www.theytree.com

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 (23% steppe, >2200 BC)

Spain

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - (24% steppe, >2500 BC)

Many people have claimed this sample is in ZZ12 and therefore would be DF27 (Iñigo Olalde or whoever does his BAM file refinements isn’t very good at it).

Ancient samples taken from the “8,000 Years of Iberia” paper (I didn’t compile them myself; I found them online and I believe there were about 150 R1b samples in total, so more than half would still be missing):

Iberos - Levante Norte y Sur.

*GBVPK (2.380 AC)-Narbona, Occitania HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195
*I3494 (1.836 AC)-Coveta del Frare, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b- DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1/b
*I1312d (1.782 AC)-Can Roqueta, Barcelona-Bronce Nordeste HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-HV0
*I3397 (1.741 AC)-Lloma de Betxí, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
*I3487 (1.675 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P310-Mit-H1e1/a
*I4559 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona Hap Y-R1b-P311-Mit-J1c1
*I4563 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona HapY-R1b- Df27-Z195-Mit-H1/H84
*I3486 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-H1q
*I3488 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0@195
*Pir001 (1.600 AC)-Cueva del Pirulejo, Córdoba-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-L23-Mit-K1a13
*I1836 (1.593 AC)-Cova del Gegant, Barcelona. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-U5a2/b3
*I8570 (1.400 AC)-Tossal Mortorum, Castellón. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3

*I3315 (861 AC)-Naveta des Tudons-C.Talayótica- HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b1
*I12641 (665 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0d
*I12640 (618 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1t

*I6491 (600 AC) Mas Gassol, Alcover, Tarragona HapY-R1b-PF7589-Mit-H4a1a
*I8211 (475 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Mit-HV0
*I8344 (450 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera Hap Y-R1b1a/1a-Mit-H3
*I12410 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H
*I12877 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-J1c1
*I8210-(425 AC)- Ampurias (Gerona) Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b1a/1a2-Mit-U5b3
*I8209 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U1a1/a
*I8212 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H27
*I8341 (425 AC)- Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1
*I3323 (284 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-X2b
*I3324 (276 AC)-Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1
*I3496 (250 AC)-Turó de Can Oliver, Barcelona-Layetanos HapY-R1b-Df27-Mit-H1e1/a
*I3326 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-J1c
*I3327 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a
*I3321 (200 AC) El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U3a
*I3320 (200 AC)-El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones. HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-I1
*I8206 (200 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-H7a1

Atlántico- Galicia, Portugal - Galaicos-Lusitanos

*I7691 (1.950 AC)-Monte da Cabida, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-J1c1
*Tv32032 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-M269-Mit- X2b@226
*Tv3831 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1-
*Mg104 (1.507 AC)-Monte do Gato, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

*I7687 (950 AC)-Gruta de Medronhal-Cultura Lusitana HapY-R1b-L502-Mit-V

Cantábrico-Vizcaya- Astures Trasmontanos, Galaicos

*I3238 (2.350 AC)-Cueva de la Paloma, Asturias. HapY-R1b1a/1a2a-L49-Mit-H3

Vascos

*AU52921 (1600 AC)-LaGuardia - Alava, Basque Nativo HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-H3ap

Meseta Norte-Castilla la Vieja, Álava -Astures Cismontanos, Vacceos, Vettones, Turmogos, Autrigones

*EHU002 (2.434 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
*EHU001 (2.165 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-U5a1/b1
*I5665 (2.133 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a24/a
*VAD001 (1.741 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-U5b1
*I6470 (1.651 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1
*VAD005 (1.644 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo Meseta HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a2
*VAD002 (1.608 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS5082-Mit-J2b1/a2
*I1840 (1.557 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-H3ap
*I2472 (1.515 AC)-El Sotillo (Álava) Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-K1a
*Esp005 (1.500 AC)-Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a
*I3492 (1.500 AC)-Los Tordillos, Salamanca-Cogotas I HapY-R1b-M269-Mit U5b1
*VAD004 (1.464 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3
*I2470 (1.321 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-J2a1/a1
*I12209 (1.289 AC)-La Requejada, Valladolid-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1ah

Meseta Sur-Castilla la Nueva Carpetanos, Oretanos

*I6539 (2.301 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2b3
*I6588 (2.250 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-U5b2/b3
*I6472 (2.250 AC)-La Magdalena, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-U152-PF6658-Mit-HV0b
*I3485 (2.200 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete, Ciudad Real-Campaniforme HapY-R1b-CTS2229-Mit-J1c1
*I3756 (1.897 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-H1
*I12809 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-H1j
*I12855 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-K1a
*I6618 (1.786 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Edad del Bronce HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

Andalucía-Andalucía Occidental-Andalucía Oriental - Turdetanos, Bastetanos

*I10939 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray, Cádiz-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a3/a
*I10940 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS3876-Mit-H1e1/a
*I10941 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2e1
*I12561 (600 AC)-La Angorrilla, Sevilla-Ilipa, Cultura Tartésica HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-H1.

Lastly, I’m sharing some image compilations with you. The genealogical tree with images is from the thesis file I posted in the DF27* section of the forum. I’ve combined the basal images with the regular ones and marked the percentage each one reaches to simplify everything visually. In my opinion, there’s a 90% chance that DF27 is native to Iberia. Do we need more evidence? Yes, but to me, this data completely changes the idea that the DF27 arrived after 2000 BC.


View attachment 18338View attachment 18339View attachment 18340View attachment 18341

You say:
The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

Me: some"cousin" subclades in a same population ar brethren, not strangers! if some Y-close lineages disappear or are without success they remain beared by people of the same source who eventually passed their autosomes to prosperity, to successive generations and are not by force "dead ends"; all the way, they are collectively/culturally "ancestors " at the same level than more successfull Y-haplo's subclades. A mutation on a Y-lineages doesn't make a new pop, at least not before some travels and time. It's a question of comprehension.
I' ll see the rest of your post: BTW what is those 'AC' in datations: our era (not BC), so not efficient for your demonstration?
&: at an individual level or in small groups it's almost sure some Steppic people arrived in Central Europe about 4000 BC.
&&: Yamnaya: they were 'steppe' at high level: 40% would be perhaps the EHG level, I think...

 

[MOESAN]

It’s not enough to only rely on ancient samples.

If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

The vast majority of ancient lineages are extinct, which is why they rarely match the key factors.

One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

We don’t have that level of scrutiny for ZZ12, but if 35% is found in Portugal and Galicia, and it drops to 10% or less on the Mediterranean Iberian coast, and is barely present in France, that only leaves England. And nowhere in England does DF27 surpass 20%, and it’s split between Z195 and ZZ12.

The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.

They have burials from 3000–2500 BC with gold diadems from which DNA couldn’t be retrieved…

So why do people think the Portuguese weren’t the earliest Bell Beakers?

They’re not only highly likely to be the fathers of DF27—they could also be the source of U106, L21, and U152, having remained isolated since 4000 BC.

Between 2600–2400 BC is when four lines consolidated, but their origin cannot be explained by the extinct Samara L51 cousins from 3000 BC, nor by the Central European L151, who are also out of date.

All the I2 and G2 individuals from 4000–2500 BC in areas near the Bell Beaker sphere had about 10% steppe ancestry.

We’ve barely uncovered even 5% of what’s in Portugal.

As for whether Celtic or Lusitanian is older…

Languages aren’t my strength, but experts say it shows similarities to ancient Indo-European more than to Celtic. And between 2500–1000 BC, there could’ve been a hundred different transitional variants—so I don’t dwell too much on the language.

Even if Celtic invasions happened, they probably didn’t exceed 10%.

This is no longer about looking for Yamnaya—it’s about looking for proto-Bell Beakers. We left the steppe long before previously thought, despite all the Nordicist and Kurganist mental gymnastics.

For those with R1a, maybe yes. But for P312? No.

You take the lineages branches which sustain your proper narrative, as they were brand new pop’s or ethnies born of nobody and from nowhere.



BoNe : If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

So if a rely on you, every new subclade is a brand new pop or ethny, so and all those subclades found in Iberia or elsewhere are distinct ethnies or al teast clans without any link between them ? (LOL) But, in a pop, even small enough, all the brethren don’t undergo the new mutations and they take part nevertheless in the culture and historical life of their clan or ethny. The further AND incomplete elimination of the oldest subclades is not only tied to sexual reproduction exclusion but also to the what we call in France the statistical « law of big numbers », where the new mutations reduce the number of ancestral clades until in fine they almost disappear like do the rare family names by time. What you call extinct lineages are not extinct, because some of them have given birth to the new ones ! A P312 found in a pop with a sea of DF27 or L21 or… is not by force the descendant of a clan on the decline drowned by a new clan of DF27 but one of the brothers of the DF27. All that can be said of every subclade. You are confusing Y-haplo’s and persons, also persons and populations !

Dinasties ar not pop’s. They need the help of all.

BTW your example of 500 L151* is very unexpectable there at this time.



BoNe : One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

Your example about Balearic Islands doesn’t send us any proof of what you say. I doesn’t prove Balearic ancestors came to Basque country at some time. It proves only they received probably early basic subclades from a place ignored by us, which could be Catalunya or Levante (Valencia) by instance. Concerning the Basque country I would rely more on Catalunya. Ancient subclades stayed dense in a place like these islands could be the result of a small pop. What is of importance is trying to control if the more recent subclades found besides the ancient ones mark a continuity in situ or newcomers.



BoNe : The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.



BB phenomenon is badly understood even todate. The origin of the pottery style seems lying in Portugal and SW Spain but the people responsible for it expansion or adoption into all Western and Central Europe is still kind of a mystery. If I read well some studies (Portuguese, Cardoso), the destination of the pottery during CA (Chalco-) was different between the outside or inside settlements of the fortresses, after contacts. More ‘household’ outside, more ‘prestige’ inside ? Captation by foreign elites ?

For I know Y-R1b post L51 and ‘steppe’ ancestry didn’t appear in Iberia before BA (and yet, in Portugal, rather a bit later for ‘steppe’… The first BB’s in Iberia were not often of Y-R1b. In Continental Europe the center of « coordination » would seem rather on the middle Rhine region, when it is harder to find some center on the Atlanticshores spite an active trade.



- It isn’t me who spoke of Lusitanian and Celtic but you.



ATW you seem having a lot of Y-haplo’s - ancient and current - for Iberia, which I lack, I’ve only old studies results out of worth now and one of 2022 on DF27. BTW this last one spoke of quick expansion of DF27 in Iberia, not of deep roots there. [...The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.

A main caveat in our study design is sampling: sample sizes were extremely low for some Iberian populations, and key areas such as Portugal, and especially France, could not be sampled. Still, in both cases R1b-DF27 frequencies are known and are compatible with our interpretation of the current results. Portugal showed subhaplogroup frequencies similar to those in northern and western Spain17, while France echoes the patterns in W Europe17. A more granular sampling of France, particularly in the southwest, would be required to fill the gap in our sampling and to increase the precision and certainty about the birthplace of R1b-DF27…] -

I would be very thankfull if you could provide us more detailed distribution of Y-R1b in ancient Iberia.

The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

All R1b are family whether they like it or not, but the proto-Bell Beaker focus should have high rates of P312*, U106*, A8051*, Z40481*, Z260*, and ZZ11. And it should be dated between 4000–2500 BC.

What we find all across Europe are already derived branches of P312 > L21, U152, and DF27, all post-2500 BC. None have been found on the steppe or anywhere else.

I don’t know where the information comes from claiming that steppe admixture only appeared in Iberia well into the Bronze Age, but I’ve read that many times and it makes me wonder if I’m actually living in some parallel universe.

First of all, the Yamnaya didn’t have 200% steppe ancestry—they only had about 40%.

If the steppe signature didn’t arrive until after 2000 BC, how do you explain this?

Portugal

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5428

www.theytree.com

I5428 - I-S2660 / U5b1-T16189C!-T16192C! - (12% steppe, >3300 BC)

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I5429

www.theytree.com

I5429 - I-M253 / J2b1a3 (10% steppe, >3000 BC)

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I11592

www.theytree.com

I11592 - I-AMM083 / U5b2b - (14% steppe, >2800 BC)

12% of DNA is equivalent to a first cousin. Where did the Lusitanians get that percentage if the first R1b-L51> weren’t already in the area?

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I7691

www.theytree.com

I7691 - R-L51 / J1c1 (23% steppe, >2200 BC)

Spain

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - (24% steppe, >2500 BC)

Many people have claimed this sample is in ZZ12 and therefore would be DF27 (Iñigo Olalde or whoever does his BAM file refinements isn’t very good at it).

Ancient samples taken from the “8,000 Years of Iberia” paper (I didn’t compile them myself; I found them online and I believe there were about 150 R1b samples in total, so more than half would still be missing):

Iberos - Levante Norte y Sur.

*GBVPK (2.380 AC)-Narbona, Occitania HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195
*I3494 (1.836 AC)-Coveta del Frare, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b- DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1/b
*I1312d (1.782 AC)-Can Roqueta, Barcelona-Bronce Nordeste HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-HV0
*I3397 (1.741 AC)-Lloma de Betxí, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
*I3487 (1.675 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P310-Mit-H1e1/a
*I4559 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona Hap Y-R1b-P311-Mit-J1c1
*I4563 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona HapY-R1b- Df27-Z195-Mit-H1/H84
*I3486 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-H1q
*I3488 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0@195
*Pir001 (1.600 AC)-Cueva del Pirulejo, Córdoba-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-L23-Mit-K1a13
*I1836 (1.593 AC)-Cova del Gegant, Barcelona. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-U5a2/b3
*I8570 (1.400 AC)-Tossal Mortorum, Castellón. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3

*I3315 (861 AC)-Naveta des Tudons-C.Talayótica- HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b1
*I12641 (665 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0d
*I12640 (618 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1t

*I6491 (600 AC) Mas Gassol, Alcover, Tarragona HapY-R1b-PF7589-Mit-H4a1a
*I8211 (475 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Mit-HV0
*I8344 (450 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera Hap Y-R1b1a/1a-Mit-H3
*I12410 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H
*I12877 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-J1c1
*I8210-(425 AC)- Ampurias (Gerona) Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b1a/1a2-Mit-U5b3
*I8209 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U1a1/a
*I8212 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H27
*I8341 (425 AC)- Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1
*I3323 (284 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-X2b
*I3324 (276 AC)-Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1
*I3496 (250 AC)-Turó de Can Oliver, Barcelona-Layetanos HapY-R1b-Df27-Mit-H1e1/a
*I3326 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-J1c
*I3327 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a
*I3321 (200 AC) El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U3a
*I3320 (200 AC)-El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones. HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-I1
*I8206 (200 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-H7a1

Atlántico- Galicia, Portugal - Galaicos-Lusitanos

*I7691 (1.950 AC)-Monte da Cabida, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-J1c1
*Tv32032 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-M269-Mit- X2b@226
*Tv3831 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1-
*Mg104 (1.507 AC)-Monte do Gato, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

*I7687 (950 AC)-Gruta de Medronhal-Cultura Lusitana HapY-R1b-L502-Mit-V

Cantábrico-Vizcaya- Astures Trasmontanos, Galaicos

*I3238 (2.350 AC)-Cueva de la Paloma, Asturias. HapY-R1b1a/1a2a-L49-Mit-H3

Vascos

*AU52921 (1600 AC)-LaGuardia - Alava, Basque Nativo HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-H3ap

Meseta Norte-Castilla la Vieja, Álava -Astures Cismontanos, Vacceos, Vettones, Turmogos, Autrigones

*EHU002 (2.434 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
*EHU001 (2.165 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-U5a1/b1
*I5665 (2.133 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a24/a
*VAD001 (1.741 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-U5b1
*I6470 (1.651 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1
*VAD005 (1.644 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo Meseta HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a2
*VAD002 (1.608 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS5082-Mit-J2b1/a2
*I1840 (1.557 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-H3ap
*I2472 (1.515 AC)-El Sotillo (Álava) Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-K1a
*Esp005 (1.500 AC)-Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a
*I3492 (1.500 AC)-Los Tordillos, Salamanca-Cogotas I HapY-R1b-M269-Mit U5b1
*VAD004 (1.464 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3
*I2470 (1.321 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-J2a1/a1
*I12209 (1.289 AC)-La Requejada, Valladolid-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1ah

Meseta Sur-Castilla la Nueva Carpetanos, Oretanos

*I6539 (2.301 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2b3
*I6588 (2.250 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-U5b2/b3
*I6472 (2.250 AC)-La Magdalena, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-U152-PF6658-Mit-HV0b
*I3485 (2.200 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete, Ciudad Real-Campaniforme HapY-R1b-CTS2229-Mit-J1c1
*I3756 (1.897 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-H1
*I12809 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-H1j
*I12855 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-K1a
*I6618 (1.786 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Edad del Bronce HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

Andalucía-Andalucía Occidental-Andalucía Oriental - Turdetanos, Bastetanos

*I10939 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray, Cádiz-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a3/a
*I10940 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS3876-Mit-H1e1/a
*I10941 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2e1
*I12561 (600 AC)-La Angorrilla, Sevilla-Ilipa, Cultura Tartésica HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-H1.

Lastly, I’m sharing some image compilations with you. The genealogical tree with images is from the thesis file I posted in the DF27* section of the forum. I’ve combined the basal images with the regular ones and marked the percentage each one reaches to simplify everything visually. In my opinion, there’s a 90% chance that DF27 is native to Iberia. Do we need more evidence? Yes, but to me, this data completely changes the idea that the DF27 arrived after 2000 BC.


View attachment 18338View attachment 18339View attachment 18340View attachment 18341

You say:
The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

Me: some"cousin" subclades in a same population ar brethren, not strangers! if some Y-close lineages disappear or are without success they remain beared by people of the same source who eventually passed their autosomes to prosperity, to successive generations and are not by force "dead ends"; all the way, they are collectively/culturally "ancestors " at the same level than more successfull Y-haplo's subclades. A mutation on a Y-lineages doesn't make a new pop, at least not before some travels and time. It's a question of comprehension.
I' ll see the rest of your post: BTW what is those 'AC' in datations: our era (not BC), so not efficient for your demonstration?
&: at an individual level or in small groups it's almost sure some Steppic people arrived in Central Europe about 4000 BC.
&&: Yamnaya: they were 'steppe' at high level: 40% would be perhaps the EHG level, I think...

You take the lineages branches which sustain your proper narrative, as they were brand new pop’s or ethnies born of nobody and from nowhere.



BoNe : If tomorrow 500 L151* were found in Extremadura dated between 3000–2500 BC, it would literally not matter one bit. It would change absolutely nothing in the historical narrative, because they would be 500 extinct bastards of what we’re actually looking for—already late in date and they should be derived into P312. So they’d be just one of many parallel branches that existed but didn’t consolidate.

So if a rely on you, every new subclade is a brand new pop or ethny, so and all those subclades found in Iberia or elsewhere are distinct ethnies or al teast clans without any link between them ? (LOL) But, in a pop, even small enough, all the brethren don’t undergo the new mutations and they take part nevertheless in the culture and historical life of their clan or ethny. The further AND incomplete elimination of the oldest subclades is not only tied to sexual reproduction exclusion but also to the what we call in France the statistical « law of big numbers », where the new mutations reduce the number of ancestral clades until in fine they almost disappear like do the rare family names by time. What you call extinct lineages are not extinct, because some of them have given birth to the new ones ! A P312 found in a pop with a sea of DF27 or L21 or… is not by force the descendant of a clan on the decline drowned by a new clan of DF27 but one of the brothers of the DF27. All that can be said of every subclade. You are confusing Y-haplo’s and persons, also persons and populations !

Dinasties ar not pop’s. They need the help of all.

BTW your example of 500 L151* is very unexpectable there at this time.



BoNe : One example of a population that does meet those factors are the Balearic islanders of the Talaiotic culture (Z220), fulfilling five criteria:

1. The oldest sample is very close to the TMRCA in both date and subclade.
2. Its basal form has the highest frequencies in that area.
3. Over 20% of the population still belongs to that line.
4. Basques have 25% Z220, but it’s a younger variant. So all the Z220 in the Basque Country came from a migration from the Balearics.
5. Cultural continuity without major changes beyond the passage of time.

Your example about Balearic Islands doesn’t send us any proof of what you say. I doesn’t prove Balearic ancestors came to Basque country at some time. It proves only they received probably early basic subclades from a place ignored by us, which could be Catalunya or Levante (Valencia) by instance. Concerning the Basque country I would rely more on Catalunya. Ancient subclades stayed dense in a place like these islands could be the result of a small pop. What is of importance is trying to control if the more recent subclades found besides the ancient ones mark a continuity in situ or newcomers.



BoNe : The Portuguese are the cradle of the Bell Beaker culture and they currently have up to 15% of R1b not included within P312.



BB phenomenon is badly understood even todate. The origin of the pottery style seems lying in Portugal and SW Spain but the people responsible for it expansion or adoption into all Western and Central Europe is still kind of a mystery. If I read well some studies (Portuguese, Cardoso), the destination of the pottery during CA (Chalco-) was different between the outside or inside settlements of the fortresses, after contacts. More ‘household’ outside, more ‘prestige’ inside ? Captation by foreign elites ?

For I know Y-R1b post L51 and ‘steppe’ ancestry didn’t appear in Iberia before BA (and yet, in Portugal, rather a bit later for ‘steppe’… The first BB’s in Iberia were not often of Y-R1b. In Continental Europe the center of « coordination » would seem rather on the middle Rhine region, when it is harder to find some center on the Atlanticshores spite an active trade.



- It isn’t me who spoke of Lusitanian and Celtic but you.



ATW you seem having a lot of Y-haplo’s - ancient and current - for Iberia, which I lack, I’ve only old studies results out of worth now and one of 2022 on DF27. BTW this last one spoke of quick expansion of DF27 in Iberia, not of deep roots there. [...The present results show indeed that nucleotide diversity is marginally higher in NE Iberia than elsewhere, and that whole branches of the R1b-DF27 phylogeny, particularly R1b-Z272, are restricted to Iberia. However, ancient DNA, and the fact that nucleotide diversity is not significantly lower in NW Europe compared to Iberia, do not rule out the possibility that R1b-DF27 originated elsewhere in Western Europe, but expanded and radiated in the north of the Iberian Peninsula, where it replaced the local paternal lineages to a great extent. Both ancient and extant DNA point to the Bronze Age expansions as the cause for the spread of R1b-DF27 throughout Western Europe and particularly into Iberia.

A main caveat in our study design is sampling: sample sizes were extremely low for some Iberian populations, and key areas such as Portugal, and especially France, could not be sampled. Still, in both cases R1b-DF27 frequencies are known and are compatible with our interpretation of the current results. Portugal showed subhaplogroup frequencies similar to those in northern and western Spain17, while France echoes the patterns in W Europe17. A more granular sampling of France, particularly in the southwest, would be required to fill the gap in our sampling and to increase the precision and certainty about the birthplace of R1b-DF27…] -

I would be very thankfull if you could provide us more detailed distribution of Y-R1b in ancient Iberia.

You say:
The example of L151 didn’t come out very well—I’m L151* myself and I’m not extinct. But my line isn’t the one that produced 300 million males; it was my “brothers” P312* and U106* who did that.

Me: some"cousin" subclades in a same population ar brethren, not strangers! if some Y-close lineages disappear or are without success they remain beared by people of the same source who eventually passed their autosomes to prosperity, to successive generations and are not by force "dead ends"; all the way, they are collectively/culturally "ancestors " at the same level than more successfull Y-haplo's subclades. A mutation on a Y-lineages doesn't make a new pop, at least not before some travels and time. It's a question of comprehension.
I' ll see the rest of your post: BTW what is those 'AC' in datations: our era (not BC), so not efficient for your demonstration?
&: at an individual level or in small groups it's almost sure some Steppic people arrived in Central Europe about 4000 BC.
&&: Yamnaya: they were 'steppe' at high level: 40% would be perhaps the EHG level, I think...

I'm sorry - for the 'AC' mention, I wrote too quicky: evidently, we haven't reached the years 2500 - so your 'AC' is 'BC' in English!

 

[Ziober]

Hi Moesan and Bones, I saw you are both doing a discussion Of-topic, Although very interesting. I'd like us to focus on the Iberian Iron Age fortifications (in concrete hillforts) as our Portuguese colleague did.

Best regards, and thank you.

 

[Ziober]

From Celtiberian zone in La Rioja (Spain) Actual aereal view of an ancient Celtiberian fortification with defensive moat, clearly visible below the town point of view. Settlement by "Pelendones" A human group ally of the Numantine Celtiberian Oppidum.

 

[Ziober]

Introductory audiovisual from Archaeological National Museum (MAN) of Madrid, a must-see museum if travellers visits Madrid.

 

[Ziober]

IRON AGE Introductory audiovisual from Archaeological National Museum (MAN) of Madrid, a must-see museum if travellers visits Madrid.

 

[Ziober]

And in the folowing pics, taken by myself in the MAN (Madrid) You all can watch, sculptures of the iberian, called in Spain Cultura Ibera [from Iberos]

Cohabiting and with very good cultural exchange; metalurgic, pottery and many other cultural matters, and defensive pacts in order to avoid the inminent and predicted by iberiam people. Roman invasion and destruction of native cultures.

These peoples, were settled in the levantine coast of Iberia, and expanded their territories, friendly, into Celtic, western and central continental Celtic populations lands. The very best example, was the called Celtiberians in the Meseta Norte, Cordillera Iberica and near territories.

 

[Ziober]

* edited for a duplicate post.

 

[Ziober]

Pure Iberos culture with influences from levantine Mediterranean, as well, clearly egiptian one.