Coming In a Few Days: 101 Ancient Genomes from Eurasia.

[Angela]

Yamna = 35% ANE, 25% ENF, 5% SE (South Eurasian) and 35% WHG.

It was 50% EHG like and 50% Armenian/Georgian like (which includes a third of ANE).

They're supposed to be 50% "modern" Armenian like, yes? Is that how modern Armenians show up on those calculators that were done? I mean did they come out as one third ANE? I didn't think it was that high.

Anyway, color me skeptical about any of these calculators until we get an ancient ENF sample from the Near East. Even after extensive and sophisticated modeling the academics wouldn't put a precise figure on the ENF in EEF, so I'll wait for the exact number.

Not that it much matters, or that it changes the fact that the Samara Yamnaya were half Near Eastern. Unless we're going to see a reversal, and all of a sudden the Armenians are going to get honorary "European" status to make things all right? No wonder no one mentions the fact that according to the academic paper the Iraqi Jews are an even better fit!

Color me jaded and suspicious but I wonder sometimes if all this slicing and dicing is just to get that "foreign" component, in the eyes of some, as low as possible. It's like all that verbiage in the beginning about "hunter-gatherer" versus "farmer", when the farmers were hunter-gatherers too, until they figured out the whole plant and animal domestication thing. Also, of course, hunter-gatherers went to Europe from the Near East in prior eras, at least the WHG probably did from everything I know.

Maybe it's just that I remember posts on related matters on sites like Stormfront. After all there is always redemption, and leopards may perhaps change their spots, yes?

 

[Alan]

They're supposed to be 50% "modern" Armenian like, yes? Is that how modern Armenians show up on those calculators that were done? I mean did they come out as one third ANE? I didn't think it was that high.

I meant the "teal" admixture, it is just as Caucasus_Gedrosia 1/3 of ANE it seems.

Not that it much matters, or that it changes the fact that the Samara Yamnaya were half Near Eastern. Unless we're going to see a reversal, and all of a sudden the Armenians are going to get honorary "European" status to make things all right? No wonder no one mentions the fact that according to the academic paper the Iraqi Jews are an even better fit!

I know eve when you take Bedouins the overlap is still there!

Color me jaded and suspicious but I wonder sometimes if all this slicing and dicing is just to get that "foreign" component, in the eyes of some, as low as possible.

^this

It's like all that verbiage in the beginning about "hunter-gatherer" versus "farmer", when the farmers were hunter-gatherers too, until they figured out the whole plant and animal domestication thing. Also, of course, hunter-gatherers went to Europe from the Near East in prior eras, at least the WHG probably did from everything I know.

Definitely as WHG is predominantly linked to I and partly to C, and I ultimately comes from IJ on the Iranian plateau(West Asia) and C from Central Asia not far away.

Maybe it's just that I remember posts on related matters on sites like Stormfront. After all there is always redemption, and leopards may perhaps change their spots, yes?

Don't know about Stormfront but posts on other boards are not forgotten.

 

[Alan]

Do you have a source that "this ANE arrived very early..." or is that your educated guess?

But do you hve any evidence that ANE arrived "very late" in that area so I have to agree with the guess of other users? I am pretty convinced´ANE was on the Iranian Plateau (West Asia) alrready during Mesolithic times, maybe even earlier and reachd by (late) Neolithic the rest of the Near East. It must have reached during the Neolithic simply CAUSE it is found uniformly everywhere in the Near East and the only movement I see which could have brought it as far South as Arabia, is the Neolithic movement.

Or do you know of any other event which might have brought ~5% ANE to Arabia during and after the Bronze Age?

 

[Angela]

Good article here

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/05/why-bathing-was-uncommon-in-medieval-europe/

etrified::sad-2:Horrifying, isn't it? I sometimes take two showers a day!

I won't go into detail as I've taken us off topic, but take a look at these sites. We resisted this pernicious trend of not bathing for much longer and recovered sooner than other Europeans, whether because of ancestral memory or trade with the East or both, I don't know. I particularly like how the half Medici Princess Marguerite not only found Henri IV totally sexually unappealing, but also couldn't bear to live with him, purportedly partly because while she bathed every day, he only bathed once a year. Plus, she said he always stank of garlic. Tsk, tsk.

Her mother was made of sterner stuff, although she also had baths with hot water built for her. Just part of the reason she was so hated, no doubt. I guess Marguerite felt that there was a limit to what she was supposed to be willing to do for the dynasty!

https://books.google.com/books?id=P...nepage&q=bathing in renaissance italy&f=false

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Catherine_de_Medici.aspx

https://books.google.com/books?id=5...age&q=Catherine de Medici and bathing&f=false

 

[Fire Haired14]

Not that it much matters, or that it changes the fact that the Samara Yamnaya were half Near Eastern.

In D-stats when ranking relation to Ust_Ishim Yamnaya is towards the top for West Eurasians, but less than the ENF score would suggest. They might have another type of Basal besides what's in ENF. Also, D-stats can't be used as a perfect way to rank baselness.ANE K8 was made before Yamnaya genomes came out.

The 50% Armenian/Iraqi_Jew thing is inconsistent with ANE K8. But it's the same pattern as in ADMIXTURE tests(inclu. ANE K8) Yamnaya was EHG+Something Caucasus/West Asian. Tests can also replace MA1 with EHG for West Asians and Native Americans as an ANE ancestor, even though they have low or no WHG.

 

[arvistro]

But do you hve any evidence that ANE arrived "very late" in that area so I have to agree with the guess of other users? I am pretty convinced´ANE was on the Iranian Plateau (West Asia) alrready during Mesolithic times, maybe even earlier and reachd by (late) Neolithic the rest of the Near East. It must have reached during the Neolithic simply CAUSE it is found uniformly everywhere and the only movement I see which could have brought it as far South as Arabia, is the Neolithic movement.

Or do you know of any other event which might have brought ~5% ANE to Arabia after during and after the Bronze Age?

So, it is a guess then.

 

[arvistro]

It's like all that verbiage in the beginning about "hunter-gatherer" versus "farmer", when the farmers were hunter-gatherers too, until they figured out the whole plant and animal domestication thing. Also, of course, hunter-gatherers went to Europe from the Near East in prior eras, at least the WHG probably did from everything I know.

Well, some Farmer Nazi stated that hunters were Genetically Incapable to farming. That statement was to put their genetically superior nose down to Earth.

Nothing to do with Near East Most if not every humans North of Africa arrived via Near East and was a hunter gatherer.

 

[Angela]

Well, some Farmer Nazi stated that hunters were Genetically Incapable to farming. That statement was to put their genetically superior nose down to Earth.

Nothing to do with Near East Most if not every humans North of Africa arrived via Near East and was a hunter gatherer.

Of course, none of what I posted was meant to apply to you Arvistro. We have a different caliber of poster on this site usually, thank goodness.

Also, I don't think your first statement is really the take away from those discussions, is it? At least that's not how I see it. I think that farming favored or "selected" for certain traits, and more so as time went on. The only difference that might have existed between the hunter gatherers in that area versus some in other places might have been that because they had larger population numbers given their luck in living in a place that was so blessed not only in plant life but in animal life, there might have been more variation on which to select. Most of that is based on pretty standard evolutionary theory, yes?

Not that I'm totally convinced of that, mind you. Skepticism is pretty much my constant frame of reference.

 

[Angela]

So, it is a guess then.

Personally, I don't know when the ANE arrived. I don't think it's impossible that the Saudis could have gotten their 5% of ANE from some J2 men they incorporated. Does anyone know off hand how much J2 there is in Saudi Arabia?

Plus, as always, people forget the women. When you have sanctioned polygamy and had an empire spanning the region from the Atlantic to the Caspian and more, I don't think they can be seen as any sort of "pure" group from the Neolithic anymore than anyone else can be seen that way.

It could have been there since the Neolithic, however.

Time will tell, and pretty quickly, perhaps. Those northwest Anatolian genomes should be interesting, especially if they do date to 4500 BC.

 

[arvistro]

Btw, speaking of EEF...
There is one big enigma about Balts and Farmer genetics. I will formulate the question:
How much EEF did Baltic folk have BEFORE Yamna?

Because...
Modern Lithuanian
36-46-17
Yamna
25-35-35

EEF-WHG-ANE

First, maximum Yamna ancestry to Lithuanian is no more than 50% (only 17% ANE vs 35% ANE).
If we model Lit as 50% Yamna + 50% something else. Then arithmetically this something else must look smth like this:
45 EEF+ 55WHG +0 ANE
Even Estonians would look like 50% of Yamna + 50% of WHG/EEF combination.

Second, in Mesolithic Baltics was EHG land.

Ultimately the population that mixed with Yamna to create Balts had more EEF than Yamna itself and was a 50/50 combination of WHG/EEF...

How do you like this twist?

 

[arvistro]

If above is correct then North/North-West of Yamna after Mesolithic (but before Yamna) there could have been more of Near East genetics than in Yamna itself...

Need to check how Corded looked like in ANE-WHG-EEF. If my guess is correct it should be more EEF than Yamna?

 

[Garrick]

We should have in mind EEF is hybrid component:

EEF = ENF + WHG

ENF: Early Neolithic Farmers (European/Near Eastern Neolithic Farmers).


If someone have (data for one Englishman):

EEF = 47.14
WHG = 37.31
ANE = 15.54

it means:
ENF + WHG = 47.14
WHG = 37.31
ANE = 15.54

It is very possible that in total he will have the biggest WHG, bigger than ENF.

In the Internet someone can find that proportion somewhere in Europe can be 5:1 or similar for Neolithic farmers with regard to WHG, but of course conclusion is not appropriate, it can be very different and it depends of location, it is not possible according this model to know precise proportion for some location.

If we use this model for Near East, Anatholia and Southern Caucasus we can get ilogical results, for example for one Assyrian:

EEF (ENF + WHG) 101%
WHG -7.61%
ANE 6.6%


You can see > 100 for EEF and < 0 for WHG.

People from Near East, Anatholia and Southern Caucasus can have EEF > 100 and WHG < 0.

I will not call this model is wrong, it is based on data which sicientists had in the moment when they finished their study. Yes, this model is imperfect and it is only one of iteration while we arrive to more robust model. It is significant for creating next, better models, when there will be more data. It should be borne in mind that the conclusions drawn on the basis of this model can be wrong.

Unfortunately authors of models created imperfect model because they couldn't better in moment when they finished their study, we'll probably know of more ancient European (and not only European) meta-populations as it will be many more studies and many more genomes are sequenced from across Europe, Asia and Africa.

With better robust model we will know more admixtures (European, Asian, African) and we will calculate more precise.

 

[arvistro]

This is true, yet if one population has higher EEF than other it means this population has higher ENF, right?
So, Lithuanians still have more ENF than Yamna. And Yamna must be mixed with even more ENF population to create Lithuanians. Or Estonians.

But I think main point from my calculations is - we jumped from Mesolithic EHG into Yamna, but we ignored Neolithic gene changes in North East. Or assumed those did not happen.

 

[Angela]

We should have in mind EEF is hybrid component:

EEF = ENF + WHG

ENF: Early Neolithic Farmers (European/Near Eastern Neolithic Farmers).


If someone have (data for one Englishman):

EEF = 47.14
WHG = 37.31
ANE = 15.54

it means:
ENF + WHG = 47.14
WHG = 37.31
ANE = 15.54

It is very possible that in total he will have the biggest WHG, bigger than ENF.

In the Internet someone can find that proportion somewhere in Europe can be 5:1 or similar for Neolithic farmers with regard to WHG, but of course conclusion is not appropriate, it can be very different and it depends of location, it is not possible according this model to know precise proportion for some location.

If we use this model for Near East, Anatholia and Southern Caucasus we can get ilogical results, for example for one Assyrian:

EEF (ENF + WHG) 101%
WHG -7.61%
ANE 6.6%


You can see > 100 for EEF and < 0 for WHG.

People from Near East, Anatholia and Southern Caucasus can have EEF > 100 and WHG < 0.

I will not call this model is wrong, it is based on data which sicientists had in the moment when they finished their study. Yes, this model is imperfect and it is only one of iteration while we arrive to more robust model. It is significant for creating next, better models, when there will be more data. It should be borne in mind that the conclusions drawn on the basis of this model can be wrong.

Unfortunately authors of models created imperfect model because they couldn't better in moment when they finished their study, we'll probably know of more ancient European (and not only European) meta-populations as it will be many more studies and many more genomes are sequenced from across Europe, Asia and Africa.

With better robust model we will know more admixtures (European, Asian, African) and we will calculate more precise.

From Lazaridis et al:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/extref/nature13673-s1.pdf

"Determining the precise levels of Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart must await further ancient DNA studies from both Europe and the Near East, but we can at least reasonably suggest that most of the sample's ancestry was Near Eastern."

That was from the Supplementary Information section; elsewhere, they estimated it to be at least 80% Near Eastern.

Plus, we don't know where the admixture took place. It might have happened in Anatolia, as they point out. Since they are academics and not hobbyists they prefer to have proof before they make autocratic statements.

The best place to look for people with more WHG than ENF is northeastern Europe, but the population density there is not very high. I can't find the post right now, but someone ran all the numbers weighted for population, and the average EEF figure for Europe as a whole is 67 or 68%. I'm sure everyone can take 80% of that.

I'm personally always very cautious about purported EEF/WHG/ANE figures for the Near East given that the academics specifically said that component doesn't really "fit" the demographic history of West Asia. If we ever get that "holy grail", an early Neolithic farmer from the Near East, then everything can be recalibrated if people are so interested in the percentages.

 

[Angela]

If above is correct then North/North-West of Yamna after Mesolithic (but before Yamna) there could have been more of Near East genetics than in Yamna itself...

Need to check how Corded looked like in ANE-WHG-EEF. If my guess is correct it should be more EEF than Yamna?

I'm not sure what was west of Samara/Yamnaya, either in terms of their autosomal make-up or their yDna make up. Were they R1a people who moved north west to form Corded Ware, and when they left R1b moved west and then into Europe, or were they more and perhaps downclade R1b, and the people who created Corded Ware were always located northwest of Yamnaya proper?

You would think that perhaps the further west you went the more admixture there was with the farming people, yes?

First, maximum Yamna ancestry to Lithuanian is no more than 50% (only 17% ANE vs 35% ANE).
If we model Lit as 50% Yamna + 50% something else. Then arithmetically this something else must look smth like this:
45 EEF+ 55WHG +0 ANE
Even Estonians would look like 50% of Yamna + 50% of WHG/EEF combination.

It needn't have been there before. Couldn't it have come after?

Well, some Farmer Nazi stated that hunters were Genetically Incapable to farming.

I had meant to respond to this statement in particular. Are you familiar with the Seinfeld TV show? They had a character called the "Soup Nazi".

 

[arvistro]

I'm not sure what was west of Samara/Yamnaya, either in terms of their autosomal make-up or their yDna make up. Were they R1a people who moved north west to form Corded Ware, and when they left R1b moved west and then into Europe, or were they more and perhaps downclade R1b, and the people who created Corded Ware were always located northwest of Yamnaya proper?
You would think that perhaps the further west you went the more admixture there was with the farming people, yes?

That sounds correct.

It needn't have been there before. Couldn't it have come after?

It is a good question. And since nobody has checked what happened between Mesolithic EHG and post-Yamna in Baltics, Belarus or Ukraine, nobody knows.

Yet I think mathematically it is difficult. If we had EHG and then came Yamna, we would never get to current levels of EEF. Especially if we were "accultured Indo-Europeans" with minimum Yamna impact (so EHG + like 5% EEF, to raise it to 35% in Baltic isolation... hard... not impossible probably, but hard...)
At least mythology is that we are very isolated archaic population that speaks rather archaic IE.
+ I vaguely remember reading anthropology about migrations from Central Europe into Baltics before Corded Ware. Need to check my source. If/when I find it I will quote here for reference. Because I might misremember.

I had meant to respond to this statement in particular. Are you familiar with the Seinfeld TV show? They had a character called the "Soup Nazi".

 

[Garrick]

From Lazaridis et al:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/extref/nature13673-s1.pdf

"Determining the precise levels of Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart must await further ancient DNA studies from both Europe and the Near East, but we can at least reasonably suggest that most of the sample's ancestry was Near Eastern."

That was from the Supplementary Information section; elsewhere, they estimated it to be at least 80% Near Eastern.

Plus, we don't know where the admixture took place. It might have happened in Anatolia, as they point out. Since they are academics and not hobbyists they prefer to have proof before they make autocratic statements.

The best place to look for people with more WHG than ENF is northeastern Europe, but the population density there is not very high. I can't find the post right now, but someone ran all the numbers weighted for population, and the average EEF figure for Europe as a whole is 67 or 68%. I'm sure everyone can take 80% of that.

I'm personally always very cautious about purported EEF/WHG/ANE figures for the Near East given that the academics specifically said that component doesn't really "fit" the demographic history of West Asia. If we ever get that "holy grail", an early Neolithic farmer from the Near East, then everything can be recalibrated if people are so interested in the percentages.

Thanks Angela, you're still explained what I started. The problem is that people read something and make half-cooked conclusions. This is young science, it will take a lot of studies to some relevant conclusions be made.

 

[arvistro]

That, Garrick, is not a problem. As long as it is done by amateurs in forums, it is fine.
Problem would be if scientists did so

btw, we are having the farmer from Anatolia in like 2-3 weeks, if I understand correctly. So, how do you think will modern Finns score more on that admixture than Yamna had?

 

[Alan]

So, it is a guess then.

Yes it is a guess with some incidences to back it up. As I wrote above ANE is found uniformly in the Near East and the only source I think of which might have brought it into Arabia is a late Neolithic (herders yDNA J) expansion.

 

[Yetos]

That, Garrick, is not a problem. As long as it is done by amateurs in forums, it is fine.
Problem would be if scientists did so

btw, we are having the farmer from Anatolia in like 2-3 weeks, if I understand correctly. So, how do you think will modern Finns score more on that admixture than Yamna had?

that would be an earthquake, of 11 richter scale, and also will bring a tsunami of 34 meter high (100 feet),

I am shaking :wary2:

is the end of world near?