Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Jovialis said:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41751-aDNA-(Dodecad-K12b)
Click to expand...

Thanks. Check the models i posted for Cypriots. What do you think?

Idontknowwhatimdoing said:
Dodecad:
View attachment 13942

Armenian fixes the fit problem.
View attachment 13944

I didnt buy G25 so here are the official Cypriot samples
G25:

You can see here that Cypriots only plot coincidentally with Isparta and Central Anatolians because they are a mix of Mycenaean + South East Anatolia + Levant + Armenian and that makes them plot in the Middle, which is Anatolian Isparta/Ovaoren etc.
View attachment 13943

gQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

gQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
Click to expand...
 
Shouldn't the BA northern levant sample be a better candidate than the jordan_ba sample for modelling cypriots?

Early-MiddleBronzeAgeNorthLevant,8.77,0.00,3.09,0.37,12.70,0.24,0.55,0.54,26.16,0.13,47.13,0.31
 
chrisrahi9 said:
Shouldn't the BA northern levant sample be a better candidate than the jordan_ba sample for modelling cypriots?

Early-MiddleBronzeAgeNorthLevant,8.77,0.00,3.09,0.37,12.70,0.24,0.55,0.54,26.16,0.13,47.13,0.31
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If by North Levant you mean Turkey Alalakh then no. If you mean Lebanon Sidon then yes. Alalakh is complely rejected for Cypriots on qpAdm too. The Levantine ancestry in Cyprus and all of the Levant in general is Lebanon Sidon Bronze Age.
 
eupator said:
Yes, of course they did, post 10th-11th century when they started descending en mass. Cyprus has had several migratory patterns (from both Anatolia and the peninsula) and Western Anatolia was emptied and repopulated several times.

E-V13 was popularised during the Imperial Byzantine times throughout the imperium, with various population flows. There's pontic greeks with E-V13 sharing recent medieval TMRCAs with Albanians, it's obvious what happened. The only one in denial is you clutching at straws and arguing for "Pelasgian origins".

Dacians/Thracians were one of the most successful populations during that time and we see that today.
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Although Imperial Byzantine of Dacian and Thracian origin makes sense, i would wait for more samples, especially considering E-V13 is to be associated with cremating cultures like Eastern Urnfielders (their ultimate origin appears to be south of Danube anyway and not North Carpathians). Look at Bulgaria LBA, no aDNA from major sites, majority cremations, it's during EIA where we see E-V13 pop up from irregular burials/ritual pits from those cultures.

In Greece similar people migrated/expanded and were called Handmade Burnished-Ware, they reached even down to Cyprus where foreign cremation burials are attested. Now, the thing left is how much aDNA can connect the dots, was it real migration or just cultural influences. These people were for sure from inner Balkans, just not sure from Central Balkans Paracin, Brnjica, Mediana or more truer Urnfield from Balkan-Carpathian horizon like Gava/Gava-Belegis II, or a mix of all of them. If yes, what Y-DNA were they carrying.

With more samples, we will have a clearer picture, and there will be no margin for speculation anymore, whatever the ultimate scenario will be.
 
Salento pulled through and produced the Sidon_BA samples:

Code: 
Lebanon_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790729_lbancient6404153,8.64,0.24,4.87,0,10.59,0,0.3,2.53,29,0,43.59,0.23
Lebanon_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790730_lbancient6404154,9.7,0,4.69,0.47,14.49,0,0,0.97,26.57,0,42.56,0.55
Lebanon_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790731_lbancient6404155,4,0,6.87,0,15.42,0,0,3.11,30.06,1.97,38.32,0.24
Lebanon_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790732_lbancient6404156,7.64,0,5.13,0,14,0,0,2.81,28.8,0.01,41.26,0.35
Lebanon_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790733-lbancient6404159,7.18,0,3.37,1.97,9.94,0,1.67,2.45,28.41,0,45,0
Modified test:

Code: 
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579
Isparta_BA,7.56,0.286666667,1.633333333,0.573333333,26.18333333,3.166666667,0,0.573333333,14.06666667,0.01,44.24,1.706666667
Corded_Ware_(n=6),8.788333333,0.396666667,0,0,25.90333333,60.15,0.156666667,0.005,0,0.513333333,3.671666667,0.42
Sidon_BA_(n=5),7.432,0.048,4.986,0.488,12.888,0,0.394,2.374,28.568,0.396,42.146,0.274

Results for southern Italy. It seems like it goes from 0-25% averaging at 9% in the model:

jskDcp4.png
 
Southern Italians and Greeks:

VdxVd0F.png


Values:

Code: 
Minoan:Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan:Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579
Isparta_BA,7.56,0.286666667,1.633333333,0.573333333,26.18333333,3.166666667,0,0.573333333,14.06666667,0.01,44.24,1.706666667
Corded_Ware,8.788333333,0.396666667,0,0,25.90333333,60.15,0.156666667,0.005,0,0.513333333,3.671666667,0.42
Sidon_BA,7.432,0.048,4.986,0.488,12.888,0,0.394,2.374,28.568,0.396,42.146,0.274
KuraAraxes,25.21333333,0.16,0.161666667,0,4,6.6,0.985,0.093333333,9.165,0,53.12166667,0.501666667

jdn6qSJ.png
 
Jovialis said:
Southern Italians and Greeks:
Click to expand...

Corded ware seems to overfit on Cypriots, Dodecad doesnt pick their steppe. Look at this qpAdm chart to see their EHG levels.

Check the qpAdm table below:

According to qpAdm, Cypriots should have around 10% steppe because they score around 5% EHG.

Important: Pay attention to the Standard errors. Because Mycenaeans have 14% steppe, that means around 7% EHG, and there is 2% Standard Error, so thats why they score 5.38%, its within that range.

Anatolian Hunter Gatherer is used as Dzudzuana proxy, basically Paleolithic West Asian related, before they mixed with ANA and ANE. ANF had around 12% Natufian related and 12% Iran N related.

So people with 50% ANF should score 6% Natufian. That's why Republic Romans score 8% Natufian. Because they were in total around 60% ANF. Sicilians score 11% Natufian, thats only 3% higher than Republic Romans. Basically their ANF got diluted and then their Natufian was raised back a bit from Anatolian/Levant related pops. South Italians/Sicilians have as much Natufian as Mycenaeans but they have less ANF and more Iran N. I'm saying this because peolpe before got confused and thought that im showing South Italians as having extreme Levantine admix, when i'm showing that it's similar to Early Republic Romans.

A better model for Mycenaeans would have been if i used Serbia Iron Gates instead of WHG as a proxy, like the Southern arc paper. But this chart was meant to use the same proxies for everyone so we can compare the shifts relatively to each other.

image.jpg

I should have not used WHG as a proxy for Levantines, it deflates their EHG, the score is even within the SE errors.

I'm going to improve this chart one day, it's time consuming.
 
Jovialis said:
Check out the average from Apulia in the individuals vs Apulia_(n_230), they're different. I'll do the same for the other populations to see how the model behaves.
Click to expand...

Huge differences might be just overfits and noise of dodecad between overlapping proxies.

The Bronze Age Sidon Levantine score you got is around the same as the one i was getting on G25 and qpAdm but some stuff are inconsistent, like the steppe in Cypriots. Try using G25, proximal G25 models give qpAdm like results. Even if its closed sourced, what matters is that it replicates proximal qpAdm models and its time saving.
 
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