Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

[bicicleur 2]

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree, sort of. There's no pots really until like 5000 BC, but the Red Deer Island cemetery looks similar to Kunda and Suomusjarvi cultures, and of course we now know the samples tested were EHG. They only tested 2 males, which happen to be EHG, other graves could show other admixture. Remember the Motala samples actually show some ANE, which is consistent with such a situation where we'd have long standing interactions between WHG and more ANE shifted EHG.

I understand you're saying that because the Karelia samples are EHG (R1a) and that Swiderian should be WHG (I1 or I2), and that because of this we can't relate Swiderian-> Suomusjarvi-Kunda to Dnieper-Donets, but I don't think we should be so sure of this. The cultures in the region were all very similar at this time and we see R1a EHG. This is what we know.

we only have a very little bit of Swiderian/Kunda mtDNA
I hope we'll get some Y/autosomal soon

as for the pots, I think they travelled from east to west, maybe along with some brides
that might explain the similarities

Motala was still I2, but it was not pure WHG any more, it had already some EHG admixture which shows influence coming from eastern Europe

 

[holderlin]

we only have a very little bit of Swiderian/Kunda mtDNA
I hope we'll get some Y/autosomal soon

as for the pots, I think they travelled from east to west, maybe along with some brides
that might explain the similarities

Motala was still I2, but it was not pure WHG any more, it had already some EHG admixture which shows influence coming from eastern Europe

What was the Swiderian-Kunda mtDNA again? U5? Remember Yamnaya had a Y-HG I2 as well.

People do seem to think that the pots in that region came from Siberians. The reasoning makes sense I guess although further to the South I would expect a very early influence from Balkan farmers.

 

[Dov]

e.g. people seem to be absolutely sure that CW was Balto-Slavic for example, but the genetics highlighted in this very thread, seem to suggest that CW was actually more like Indo-Iranian speaking.

Why do you think so? Abashevo (z93?) were probably East Indo-European, and speak proto-Indo-Iranian. While Fatyanovo (z280?) or Middle Dnieper culture (z280?) were probably Western Indo-Europeans and speak proto-Baltoslavic. The relative similarity between Lithuanian and Sanskrit (as well as Russian and Sanskrit) refers to proto-CW common origin. How it close to PIE? Who knows. When restoring PIE usually analyze all languages, from Armenian to Celtic.

But of course would be better to have these paleo-DNA, instead speculation.

 

[bicicleur 2]

What was the Swiderian-Kunda mtDNA again? U5? Remember Yamnaya had a Y-HG I2 as well.

People do seem to think that the pots in that region came from Siberians. The reasoning makes sense I guess although further to the South I would expect a very early influence from Balkan farmers.

What was the Swiderian-Kunda mtDNA again? U5? Remember Yamnaya had a Y-HG I2 as well.

People do seem to think that the pots in that region came from Siberians. The reasoning makes sense I guess although further to the South I would expect a very early influence from Balkan farmers.

I have this

Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 54]	M	5616–5482 BC			[T?	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 36]	M	5557–4792 BC			H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 45]	M	5471–5223 BC			C	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 64]	M	5479–5064 BC			H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 19]	F	5474–5225 BC			U3	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 17]		5437–5090 BC			[?	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 34]		5323–4941 BC			C4a2	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 32]	M	undated			[T	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 57]		undated			[H	Newton 2011
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Dereivka [DD 33]		5000 BC			[H	Newton 2011
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Nikolskoye [Ni 58]	M	undated			C	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Nikolskoye [Ni 94]	F	5358–4993 BC			U5a1a	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012

but there is mtDNA H which was not in early WHG nor EHG

this is interesting

 

[bicicleur 2]

oops, half my post is gone

 

[MOESAN]

IMO the Swiderian/Kunda people were Y-DNA I, possibly I1 and mtDNA U5, U4, U2e and autosomal WHG

they spread all over Eastern Europe (only in very thin layers), but except near the Baltic (Kunda et al) were displaced by incoming EHG, Y-DNA R1 HG, their mtDNA was C and Z
the Swiderian males disapeared in Eastern Europe when these EHG arrived, but females remained (at least their DNA)

later also CHG admixture came into the Pontic steppe along with mtDNA H2a
you'll find the first H2a on the Pontic in both Khvalynsk and Dnjepr Donets
I guess its origin is south of the Caucasus

It seem most of Swiderians were phenotypically "archaïc" types (old mix since or before Mesolithic) who colonised East-Baltic N-Russia regions E-N-E Moscow if I rely on a Russian scholar; he wrote this "archaïc" types mixed with a tall a bit more slender dolichocephalic and dolichomorphic type which evocates me a lot of Steppic people of the subsequent centuries;his thesis was the Swiderians (+ some Ertebolle people?) were responsbile for Y-I1 and Y-I2a2 presence in Kazan E-Moscow region today (Maciamo has other explanations with very later Germanics); they could have seen their Y-haplos erased by new dominant Y-R1a male elites at the end of Neolithic or even already since their tardive weak Neolithic evolution. They could be "pure" WHG when Y-R1a people had more ANE to give EHG? I agree with more than a forumer that CWC are not directly issued from Yamnaya; they only have a great common auDNA basis surely encouraged by females exchanges over a long time. So, difference, rather gradual than steep.
For CWC, Have they had a common language with Yamnaya? or a common free koinè? (PIE); it's possible their common links came from more East, between S-Volga/Samara and more East Caspian regions, where PIE concretion could have taken place between influence of South Central Asia (more cultural) and influence from West - ITS Eastern-North-Eastern Europe, more demic???
I don't create nothing new here, only trying to synthetize what I know to date.

 

[MOESAN]

A good combo would be Funnelbeaker + Yamnaya, this combo is not providing a good result for CW but it does for the Bronze Age Unetice culture, a millennia after the supposed steppe expansion in Central Europe, because it is around 10% WHG, 30 EEF, 55% EHG, 5% CHG; this would be a fine result if combining a Funnelbeaker (20% WHG, 5% EHG, 75% EEF) for each Yamnayan (85% EHG and 15% CHG). But of course the case fails when Central Europeans would number some 4 millions: there was not such numbers in the steppes, just looking at Mongolia tells it.

I did not find so bad the supposed mix Yamna/FBC (if based on 60/40% or 66/34%) when we take in account other small mixtures on the road... and the fact we have few auDNA for FBC and that East continental FBC were surely not exactly the same people as West maritime FBC. That said, I think as you, CWC is not a direct product of Yamnaya, but they share ancient auDNA more female based, since a long time.

 

[holderlin]

Why do you think so? Abashevo (z93?) were probably East Indo-European, and speak proto-Indo-Iranian. While Fatyanovo (z280?) or Middle Dnieper culture (z280?) were probably Western Indo-Europeans and speak proto-Baltoslavic. The relative similarity between Lithuanian and Sanskrit (as well as Russian and Sanskrit) refers to proto-CW common origin. How it close to PIE? Who knows. When restoring PIE usually analyze all languages, from Armenian to Celtic.

But of course would be better to have these paleo-DNA, instead speculation.

I don't necessarily think this is the case, it was a bad example of evidence that challenged presuppositions. I'm basing this on the genetic similarity between Sintashta and CW->Andronovo; Iranians being directly derivative of CW.

I've actually been saying something very similar to what you post here. Shit I've even been prating the Lithuanian/Sanskrit comparison.

One thing is for certain. The steppe after Yamnaya is very Western shifted genetically.

 

[holderlin]

I have this

Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 54]	M	5616–5482 BC			[T?	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 36]	M	5557–4792 BC			H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 45]	M	5471–5223 BC			C	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 64]	M	5479–5064 BC			H	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 19]	F	5474–5225 BC			U3	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 17]		5437–5090 BC			[?	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 34]		5323–4941 BC			C4a2	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 32]	M	undated			[T	Newton 2011;Lillie 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Yasinovatka [Ya 57]		undated			[H	Newton 2011
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Dereivka [DD 33]		5000 BC			[H	Newton 2011
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Nikolskoye [Ni 58]	M	undated			C	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012
Dnieper-Donets	Ukraine	Nikolskoye [Ni 94]	F	5358–4993 BC			U5a1a	Newton 2011;Nikitin 2012

but there is mtDNA H which was not in early WHG nor EHG

this is interesting

Thanks.

What's the latest long awaited paper? I lose track. Is it Maykop and Cucenti-Tripolye? Isn't there some Indus River samples too?

 

[holderlin]

It seem most of Swiderians were phenotypically "archaïc" types (old mix since or before Mesolithic) who colonised East-Baltic N-Russia regions E-N-E Moscow if I rely on a Russian scholar; he wrote this "archaïc" types mixed with a tall a bit more slender dolichocephalic and dolichomorphic type which evocates me a lot of Steppic people of the subsequent centuries;his thesis was the Swiderians (+ some Ertebolle people?) were responsbile for Y-I1 and Y-I2a2 presence in Kazan E-Moscow region today (Maciamo has other explanations with very later Germanics); they could have seen their Y-haplos erased by new dominant Y-R1a male elites at the end of Neolithic or even already since their tardive weak Neolithic evolution. They could be "pure" WHG when Y-R1a people had more ANE to give EHG? I agree with more than a forumer that CWC are not directly issued from Yamnaya; they only have a great common auDNA basis surely encouraged by females exchanges over a long time. So, difference, rather gradual than steep.
For CWC, Have they had a common language with Yamnaya? or a common free koinè? (PIE); it's possible their common links came from more East, between S-Volga/Samara and more East Caspian regions, where PIE concretion could have taken place between influence of South Central Asia (more cultural) and influence from West - ITS Eastern-North-Eastern Europe, more demic???
I don't create nothing new here, only trying to synthetize what I know to date.

Thanks, I hadn't dug up anything about the Swiderian physical type, but I was familiar with Ertebolle. I agree that the "tall" suggests to me also that this could be a "steppic" type. EHG is mostly WHG anyway. It's entirely possible that EHG came from further West than Samara and Karelia. Swiderian's pretty old and we know that by 16kya EHG was already around halfway formed as seen in the AG samples.

But, they are probably WHG I2/I1 and the source of the I1 founder effect in Scandinavia. The Motala and the Pitted Ware samples are proabably what Swiderians looked like.

 

[holderlin]

The steppe after Yamnaya also appeared to be the first really depigmented people. What happened here?

I think Samara was pretty depigmented, but the samples that are undoubtedly similar to modern day Northern Europeans all come after CW and are clearly derivative of CW.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The steppe after Yamnaya also appeared to be the first really depigmented people. What happened here?

I think Samara was pretty depigmented, but the samples that are undoubtedly similar to modern day Northern Europeans all come after CW and are clearly derivative of CW.

the Tocharian people depicted in the Tarim Basin were fairskinned



if the Tocharian speaking people were fairskinned, who are identified with Afanansievo, then Yamna shlould be fairskinned too

 

[berun]

if the Tocharian speaking people were fairskinned, who are identified with Afanansievo, then Yamna shlould be fairskinned too

Not very much knowledge about it, but the presumed archaeological facts linking Afanasievo with the Tocharians are even more sci-fi like than those of the Corded Ware with Yamna; realy you might take care with your steppe gurus.

By the way the Tarim mummies were R1a1... Yamnayans were the Kura-Araxes R1b type.

 

[Alan]

the Tocharian people depicted in the Tarim Basin were fairskinned

View attachment 8345

if the Tocharian speaking people were fairskinned, who are identified with Afanansievo, then Yamna shlould be fairskinned too

That is not a scientific reasoning imo. Also we have data at hand from all the samples we gathered it appears they were even very slightly below South European average when it comes to light pigmentation.

And I still see people connecting Sintashta to CW in that way, that they think it derived fom it. While the scenario that both derive from the same culture is even more likely.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Not very much knowledge about it, but the presumed archaeological facts linking Afanasievo with the Tocharians are even more sci-fi like than those of the Corded Ware with Yamna; realy you might take care with your steppe gurus.

By the way the Tarim mummies were R1a1... Yamnayans were the Kura-Araxes R1b type.

Tocharian branched of from IE prior to Indo_iranian and remnants of Tocharian have been found in the Tarim Basin.
Afanasievo seems the most logical explanation to me.
There may be other explanations but right now I don't know which ones.

The Tarim mummies were not R1a-M417 but R1a-M198*, so probably neither Yamna nor Indo-Iranian.
R1a-M198 is also observed near lake Bajkal 8ka, long before IE in the Altaï area.
How they got fair skin and European looks is even more puzzling.

 

[bicicleur 2]

That is not a scientific reasoning imo. Also we have data at hand from all the samples we gathered it appears they were even very slightly below South European average when it comes to light pigmentation.

And I still see people connecting Sintashta to CW in that way, that they think it derived fom it. While the scenario that both derive from the same culture is even more likely.

It is not a proof but how would you explain the fairskinned people on the painting found along with Tocharian writings?

As for CW and Sintashta they both have Y-DNA R1a-M417 and similar autosomal DNA and both were IE.

 

[Goga]

As for CW and Sintashta they both have Y-DNA R1a-M417 and similar autosomal DNA and both were IE.

CW was derived from Z282, while Central Asian cultures were from Z93. 2 very different things.

Also, Corded Ware is from 2900 BC at max, while according to Underhill (2014), the downstream R1a-M417 subclade diversified into Z282 and Z93 about 3800 BC, same age as BMAC in Iran.

So, there is almost 1000 years between Corded Ware and Central Asian R1a-Z93. R1a-Z282 was (is) NOT 'Aryan' at all.

Some ancient 'Aryans' that carried R1a, were mostly Z94, so even Z93 can't even been seen as 'Aryan'. So only Z94 subclade of R1a (+some ancient non-M417 Iranian R1a-sublcades) can be seen as an 'Aryan' marker. Other non-R1a 'Aryan' markers were moslty downstreams of J2a, like PF5087 and PF5050...

 

[Alan]

It is not a proof but how would you explain the fairskinned people on the painting found along with Tocharian writings?

As for CW and Sintashta they both have Y-DNA R1a-M417 and similar autosomal DNA and both were IE.

I am not talking about Tocharians. We have data from Yamnaya at hand that shows they were pigmentationwise on level on modern Irano_Anatolians but went through drastic depigmentation within hundreds of years.

 

[Goga]

Some people still live in a dreamworld and want to feel special by connecting themselves with the 'real' Aryans (Iranian speakers). R1a-Z93 already existed in SouthCentral Asia even 1000 years before CW came into the existence. How can R1a-Z93 in Central Asia can be from CW when it PREDATES CW by 1000 years? LMAO..

R1a-Z93 = 3800BC, same age as East Iranian BMAC http://www.payvand.com/news/13/nov/1138.html
Corded Ware = 2900BC = R1a-Z282


Z93 is not the same as Z282, differences are HUGE, like differences between the African R1b and the European R1b

 

[Angela]

Study on Yamnaya pigmentation from the Reich Lab:
Mathiesen et al
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/03/natural-selection-and-ancient-european.html

It confirms the findings of the previous Sandra*(Ed.) Wilde et al paper on steppe populations.

See also:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/03/natural-selection-and-ancient-european.html


Bottom line: brown eyed, lower levels of SLC45A2 than modern Europeans, including Southern European populations.