"Croatian-like" Genetics in Southwestern Ukraine and Southeastern Poland

zhumer

Regular Member
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Ethnic group
Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, distant Jewish
Genetic modeling using Global25 shows that Southwestern Ukrainians and Southern Poles share a genetic profile that is around 25-45% "Croatian-like", suggesting Balkanic influences.


Global25


Ukrainian Lviv Average

Target: Ukrainian_Lviv

Distance: 0.6336% / 0.00633560 | R3P

63.0 Ukrainian_Sumy

31.0 Croat

6.0 Croat_Bosnia


Southern Polish

Target: Polish:S_Polish-1

Distance: 1.6164% / 0.01616445 | R3P

62.8 Ukrainian_Rivne

24.0 Croat_Bosnia

13.2 German


There aren't many Southern Polish samples on G25, although I had my Polish parent tested and their results show that genetic profile. This suggests that part of Southern Poles share this genetic profile.


Target: Parent_(Polish_Eastern_Kresy)

Distance: 2.3656% / 0.02365620 | R3P

57.2 Ukrainian_Rivne

23.8 Croat_Dalmatia

19.0 Bosniak_Croatia



In this thread, let's discuss some potential explanations for this.


Theory 1: Carpathian Rusyns and Gorals


The Carpathian Mountain region straddling southern Poland, western Ukraine and eastern Slovakia has long been inhabited by ethnic groups like Rusyns and Gorals. If Rusyns/Gorals mixed with the wider populations of Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians, it could partially explain the affinity to Western Balkanic populations.

There were likely instances of intermarriage and gene flow between these Carpathian ethnic groups and the wider populations of Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians. For example, Rusyns living in the Polish and Ukrainian territories of the Carpathians may have integrated with local populations to some degree. This could have transmitted their significantly Carpatho-Balkan admixed genetic profile, resulting in the genetic influences seen today.



Theory 2: Austrian settlers from southern Habsburg lands


Austrians from southern parts of the Habsburg Empire did settle in southern Poland and western Ukraine (Galicia) to some extent during the late 18th and 19th centuries. If these Southern Austrian settlers carried a genetic signature interpreted as mainly "Croat/Bosnian-like", it could account for a portion of the modeled results.

This includes the Josephine colonization promoted by Emperor Joseph II in the late 18th century. Josephine colonists, many from southern Austria, were ethnic Germans who received privileges to settle in the region.

These Josephine colonists, along with other Austrian settlers and officials, could have carried genetic influences that we see while modelling Southern Polish and Southwest Ukrainian populations.



Theory 3: Influence of ancient Vlach populations


Vlachs could have intermarried with locals in Galicia over centuries, leaving a genetic trace that modeling picks up as an "Western Balkanic-like" influence on present-day Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians.

The Vlach explanation is questionable given the genetic profile of actual Vlach populations. Most Vlachs on G25 are genetically similar to Mainland Greeks, with significant Balkan and eastern Mediterranean influences. In contrast, the southern admixture seen in Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians seems to be more broadly western Balkan in nature.





Any thoughts?
 
Last edited:
Croats are a Slavic people and not Paleo-Balkan, so no there is no "Balkanic" influence in southwestern Ukrainians and southeastern Poles. Hence this is just overlapping between Slavic pops, your premisse under which you are working is erroneous.
 
Croats are a Slavic people and not Paleo-Balkan, so no there is no "Balkanic" influence in southwestern Ukrainians and southeastern Poles. Hence this is just overlapping between Slavic pops, your premisse under which you are working is erroneous.

You're wrong and obviously you do not know much about Slavic peoples' genetics. Croats are genetically 60-70% Slavic and 30-40% of their genes are of Native Balkan/Illyrian origin.
 
I am very much aware of the autosomal composition of modern Slavic pops in the Balkans, which are vastly and mainly Slavic and evidently next to autosomal DNA also uniparentals, no need to get defensive here. The pre-Slavic admixture in Slavic groups in the Balkans is very diverse also regarding uniparentals, so your self-confident labeling does not help your premisse either.

I am also very well aware of the Paleo-Balkan archaeogenetic landscape as I do carry mainly Paleo-Balkan ancestry, no need to lecture me on that.

If you compare Slavic and vastly Slavic pops with each other you will get overlap, calling this "Balkanic" influence is erroneous and historically inaccurate.
 
If you compare Slavic and vastly Slavic pops with each other you will get overlap, calling this "Balkanic" influence is erroneous and historically inaccurate.

Completely wrong. If you model Northern Slavic populations outside of Galicia ( except Slovaks and Czech ), they won't get any affinity to Balkan populations.

I will use ancient Illyrian samples now with Modern Ukrainian populations to prove you're wrong.

Target: Polish:S_Polish-1
Distance: 1.4907% / 0.01490723 | R3P
59.6 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
20.8 Ukrainian_Rivne
19.6 Illyrian






Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
Distance: 0.5851% / 0.00585144 | R3P
62.6 Ukrainian_Sumy
22.0 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
15.4 Illyrian



Is it also overlap for you? :gritting:

Ancient Illyrian samples on G25

Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688,0.122929,0.161469,0.02489,-0.028101,0.028005,-0.015618,0.004935,0.001846,0.000409,0.019499,-0.000974,0.01139,-0.016799,-0.004266,-0.006786,-0.016441,-0.009518,0.004054,0.005028,-0.007253,-0.013601,0.009398,-0.005176,0.011086,-0.007065
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690,0.125205,0.149283,0.034318,-0.00646,0.029544,-0.005857,-0.001175,0.004846,-0.00225,0.019681,0.001461,0.002698,-0.020069,-0.006468,-0.003122,0.002121,0.001825,0.003167,0.002011,-0.002501,-0.007861,0.003462,0.005423,-0.004217,-0.005269
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692,0.125205,0.152329,0.025644,-0.010336,0.019388,0.001116,-0.008695,0.003461,0.006136,0.025878,0.007145,0.010641,-0.018583,-0.00234,-0.011536,-0.006099,0.008605,0.00038,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.010981,-0.006183,-0.001479,0.012411,0.003113
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251,0.124067,0.144205,0.018102,-0.019703,0.025851,-0.003347,0.002115,0.008077,0.000205,0.022233,-0.000974,0.005095,-0.017096,-0.017753,-0.013301,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.003294,0.010182,-0.013006,-0.000125,0.005441,-0.007148,-0.001687,-0.004431
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253,0.130897,0.156392,0.034318,-0.010982,0.035083,-0.000279,0.002115,0.001846,0.0045,0.029158,0.008931,0.015436,-0.024083,-0.001927,-0.012893,0.000796,0.012647,0.008361,0.011816,-0.009505,-0.011355,-0.002349,-0.003944,0.008917,-0.007185
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254,0.120652,0.157407,0.039598,-0.006137,0.031698,-0.011992,0.00705,-0.014076,-0.011044,0.033896,-0.002761,0.001349,-0.018137,-0.005918,-0.010586,-0.007558,0.021774,0.00076,-0.009176,-0.013256,-0.006988,-0.003215,-0.010846,0.01446,-0.008382
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256,0.118376,0.151314,0.02489,-0.005491,0.034468,-0.001673,0.00188,-0.003231,0,0.018406,0.005359,-0.000599,-0.013379,-0.014863,-0.006107,0.013392,0.034943,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.010255,0.01148,0.005812,-0.00037,0.005181,-0.009101
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.01169,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5723,0.124067,0.152329,0.039221,-0.006783,0.045239,-0.00251,0.00188,-0.003231,0.012271,0.030616,-0.004547,0.006444,-0.016501,-0.003441,-0.010043,0.003447,-0.000913,0.000887,0.004902,0.002376,-0.00836,0.001607,-0.004437,-0.001205,0.001557
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5724,0.126344,0.152329,0.027907,0.006783,0.033237,-0.00753,0.006815,0.003923,0.01493,0.028976,-0.000162,0.008393,-0.009663,-0.00812,-0.007465,0.001458,-0.002086,0.007348,0.011816,-0.003377,-0.005989,0.011871,0.002095,-0.010724,0.000479
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5725,0.112685,0.153345,0.039221,0.006783,0.041238,0.005857,0.000705,-0.001846,0.01309,0.02606,-0.001624,0.010641,-0.010109,-0.009909,-0.001357,-0.002784,0.00326,0.005321,0,0.002751,-0.000624,-0.001978,-0.00912,-0.004097,0.002395
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5726,0.118376,0.15436,0.040729,-0.002907,0.03693,-0.005857,-0.003995,0.002538,0.014317,0.029522,-0.003248,0.005245,-0.010258,-0.015689,-0.001221,0.01485,0.021905,0.000253,-0.005028,0.005378,-0.001248,-0.003833,-0.006532,0.003615,-0.006826
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5728,0.124067,0.150298,0.04186,-0.004522,0.041546,-0.010598,0.00094,-0.000231,0.020657,0.0277,-0.002111,0.007943,-0.014123,0.003028,0.001221,-0.011535,-0.007823,0.000887,0.001383,0.001,-0.001747,0.014962,-0.005546,0.004217,-0.008502
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5729,0.127482,0.149283,0.038466,0,0.032621,0.003626,0.001645,-0.003923,0.012476,0.024237,-0.005846,0.014237,-0.018434,-0.005367,-0.003529,0.000398,0.004563,0.00266,0.001885,-0.002126,0,0.000495,0.002835,-0.003735,-0.00455
Illyrian:HRV_EIA:I23904,0.120652,0.142174,0.031301,-0.008398,0.023389,-0.001394,-0.001175,0.008077,0.011044,0.028611,0.001299,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.009093,-0.002652,0.008866,0.009882,0.006536,-0.011631,-0.007237,0.000866,0.006409,0.006145,0.000718
Illyrian:HRV_EIA:I24639,0.126344,0.152329,0.036204,0.002261,0.031698,0.000558,0.001175,0.003,0.006749,0.023691,-0.000812,0.009292,-0.012933,-0.002202,0.00095,-0.001591,-0.009779,-0.001267,0.004525,-0.006878,-0.012977,0.003586,0.003081,-0.004338,0.004311
Illyrian:HRV_EIA:I24882,0.134311,0.150298,0.036204,-0.001615,0.040931,-0.007251,0.001175,-0.004384,0.002659,0.018224,0.002273,0.01124,-0.011893,-0.013349,-0.001764,-0.000928,0.003912,0.000633,0.00264,-0.004127,0.000998,0.004081,0.00493,0.00723,-0.009939
Illyrian:HRV_EIA:I26742,0.124067,0.153345,0.024136,-0.007429,0.035699,-0.008367,0.00141,0.004154,0.014521,0.028793,0.003248,0.008692,-0.016353,-0.010459,-0.004614,0.001193,0.006258,-0.000633,0.008925,-0.008004,-0.003119,0.00272,0.002588,0.006145,-0.006227
 
Your model does not make sense with regards to the time frame and you are merely using G25 references with reducing the outcome to three populations.

If you think that these Ukranian and Polish subgroups carry 16-20% ancient non-Slavic Balkan ancestry from the East Adriatic/Western Balkans then I am afraid no evidence based counterargument will change your false stance. It is a senseless non factual claim.
 
Your model does not make sense with regards to the time frame and you are merely using G25 references with reducing the outcome to three populations.

If you think that these Ukranian and Polish subgroups carry 16-20% ancient non-Slavic Balkan ancestry from the East Adriatic/Western Balkans then I am afraid no evidence based counterargument will change your false stance. It is a senseless non factual claim.

So make a model with regards to the time frame then.

Well, I obviously reduce populations to make it more simple to read and understand.

I didn't say these subgroups carry that Balkan admixture from East Adriatic/Western Balkans. The point of the model is to show the closeness/affinity.

I do not think that discussion will lead to something because you are clearly biased.

And you didn't answer my question. Is that Illyrian that popping out also because of overlap of Slavic populations with them?
 
Can you use Sorbs as one source and different southeastern populations as another one?

I am not sure if there is any point to use Sorbs as a proxy for Slavic but if you want so... I used only Sorbs and Macedonian Greeks here but it is clearly not correct model in this case. The higher distance also indicates that.


Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
Distance: 2.0782% / 0.02078161
82.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
17.6 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace


Target: Polish:S_Polish-1
Distance: 2.3255% / 0.02325517
84.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz
15.4 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace

Added Western Balkanic populations here:

Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
Distance: 1.7932% / 0.01793179
53.2 Sorb_Niederlausitz
46.8 Croatian


Target: Polish:S_Polish-1
Distance: 2.0292% / 0.02029201
62.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz
29.0 Bosnian
8.4 Croatian
 
I reckon it can only be the other way round considering that Western Ukraine/Southeastern Poland is where the original Croats came from. It is this component of the present-day Croats and Bosnians that reveals these similarities, not some Paleo-Balkanic ancestry. Paleo-Balkanic is an umbrella term for a variety of ancient populations that were not necessarily related. There is a difference between Eastern Balkans, Western Balkans and Southern Balkans (Greece). There are even differences within the Western Balkans "cluster" as it is very much possible that there were major differences between coastal Illyrians like the Iapodes and Delmatae and those further away to the east like the Pannonii (Breuci etc.). Unfortunately the samples are rather scarce and what is available is limited to the Adriatic coast and its immediate hinterlands. Here the Y-DNA haplogroup J2b-L283 seems to dominate so far which is also true for the Liburnians who were not Illyrians. I would argue that the farther you move into the more central areas of Western Balkans (to the east and northeast), the more it is likely to find an increase in R1B-U152 and its subclade R1b-L2. But we will have to wait until new discoveries are made. What I'm basically saying is that the term Paleo-Balkanic can be very misleading. The best way forward are new excavations and archeogenetic data acquired by hard science. Common sense can be helpful as well. A lot of these tools like Global25 or Gedmatch are used like crystal balls and oracles and can lead to absurd conclusions as is often the case. Using modern-day proxies to obtain data about ancient populations can only lead to arbitrary conclusions. If you don't use your brain, you'll be like a driver who trusts his navigation system more than his own eyes.
 
I reckon it can only be the other way round considering that Western Ukraine/Southeastern Poland is where the original Croats came from. It is this component of the present-day Croats and Bosnians that reveals these similarities, not some Paleo-Balkanic ancestry. Paleo-Balkanic is an umbrella term for a variety of ancient populations that were not necessarily related. There is a difference between Eastern Balkans, Western Balkans and Southern Balkans (Greece). There are even differences within the Western Balkans "cluster" as it is very much possible that there were major differences between coastal Illyrians like the Iapodes and Delmatae and those further away to the east like the Pannonii (Breuci etc.). Unfortunately the samples are rather scarce and what is available is limited to the Adriatic coast and its immediate hinterlands. Here the Y-DNA haplogroup J2b-L283 seems to dominate so far which is also true for the Liburnians who were not Illyrians. I would argue that the farther you move into the more central areas of Western Balkans (to the east and northeast), the more it is likely to find an increase in R1B-U152 and its subclade R1b-L2. But we will have to wait until new discoveries are made. What I'm basically saying is that the term Paleo-Balkanic can be very misleading. The best way forward are new excavations and archeogenetic data acquired by hard science. Common sense can be helpful as well. A lot of these tools like Global25 or Gedmatch are used like crystal balls and oracles and can lead to absurd conclusions as is often the case. Using modern-day proxies to obtain data about ancient populations can only lead to arbitrary conclusions. If you don't use your brain, you'll be like a driver who trusts his navigation system more than his own eyes.

Probably you didn't read my introduction to the thread. I wrote about 3 theories, which basically are what they are - assumptions. It's not that I am making conclusions based on the results, I am making assumptions based on them and there is no point in my opinion to talk about ancient Illyrians, Luburnians because the thread is about modern ages and proccesses during modern era that affected autosomal DNA changes.

The model above where I used Illyrians was used to show minor affinity of Southwestern Ukrainians and Southeast Poles to them and not to prove these subgroups descend from these ancient people, it's not what the thread is about.

Your thinking that this closeness between modern Croats and modern Galician Slavs is through White Croats is interesting but weren't White Croats originally just the Early Slavic tribes and not really different from the other Early Slavic peoples? Why would you think this connection may be revealed because of them?

Slavic part of Croats consists of White Croats but the reason these populations popping out on G25 or Gedmatch is because of the elevated Med admixture of Southwestern Ukrainians and Southeastern Polish people.

I would like to show you this on PCA, but I can't post it because I need to have 20 posts. On PCA you would see that Ukrainian Lviv is in the middle, between Modern Balkanites and North Slavic populations
 
Any thoughts?

Your reasoning is ok, and I think all three factors played it, but there is a third you overlooked, which is that Croats came from this region probably, and that there was admixture in situ, even before the ancestral Croats departed to the South. Like admixture from Dacian, Celtic, Illyrian and generalised more '"Roman" people from around the Carpathians, which mixed with the local Slavic tribes. Therefore its not just backflow, its not just later admixture, which certainly took place as well, but local admixture of the ancient Slavs of the region. Carpatho-Balkan admixture of South Eastern Poles, Western Ukrainians and Slovaks is therefore present, but to a large extend of ancient origin.
I know of South Slavic individuals which moved to those areas, but this is a low level gene flow which can't account for the observable pattern. And again, not even in actual modern Croats not all of the non-Proto-Slavic/Baltoslavic ancestry is from the West Balkans, some of it was likely picked up in the North Carpathians and on route to the Balkans:

Distribution_of_Croatian_ethnonym_in_the_Middle_Ages.jpg


The local Balkan admixture in modern Croats is real of course, but not all of the shift away from the very North Eastern Baltoslavic/Early Slavic profile needs to be explained by it. The tribes which moved South were already more "Slovak-like" than the very Baltoslavic profiles of early Northern Slavs.
 
Genetic modeling using Global25 shows that Southwestern Ukrainians and Southern Poles share a genetic profile that is around 25-45% "Croatian-like", suggesting Balkanic influences.


Global25


Ukrainian Lviv Average

Target: Ukrainian_Lviv

Distance: 0.6336% / 0.00633560 | R3P

63.0 Ukrainian_Sumy

31.0 Croat

6.0 Croat_Bosnia


Southern Polish

Target: Polish:S_Polish-1

Distance: 1.6164% / 0.01616445 | R3P

62.8 Ukrainian_Rivne

24.0 Croat_Bosnia

13.2 German


There aren't many Southern Polish samples on G25, although I had my Polish parent tested and their results show that genetic profile. This suggests that part of Southern Poles share this genetic profile.


Target: Parent_(Polish_Eastern_Kresy)

Distance: 2.3656% / 0.02365620 | R3P

57.2 Ukrainian_Rivne

23.8 Croat_Dalmatia

19.0 Bosniak_Croatia



In this thread, let's discuss some potential explanations for this.


Theory 1: Carpathian Rusyns and Gorals


The Carpathian Mountain region straddling southern Poland, western Ukraine and eastern Slovakia has long been inhabited by ethnic groups like Rusyns and Gorals. If Rusyns/Gorals mixed with the wider populations of Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians, it could partially explain the affinity to Western Balkanic populations.

There were likely instances of intermarriage and gene flow between these Carpathian ethnic groups and the wider populations of Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians. For example, Rusyns living in the Polish and Ukrainian territories of the Carpathians may have integrated with local populations to some degree. This could have transmitted their significantly Carpatho-Balkan admixed genetic profile, resulting in the genetic influences seen today.



Theory 2: Austrian settlers from southern Habsburg lands


Austrians from southern parts of the Habsburg Empire did settle in southern Poland and western Ukraine (Galicia) to some extent during the late 18th and 19th centuries. If these Southern Austrian settlers carried a genetic signature interpreted as mainly "Croat/Bosnian-like", it could account for a portion of the modeled results.

This includes the Josephine colonization promoted by Emperor Joseph II in the late 18th century. Josephine colonists, many from southern Austria, were ethnic Germans who received privileges to settle in the region.

These Josephine colonists, along with other Austrian settlers and officials, could have carried genetic influences that we see while modelling Southern Polish and Southwest Ukrainian populations.



Theory 3: Influence of ancient Vlach populations


Vlachs could have intermarried with locals in Galicia over centuries, leaving a genetic trace that modeling picks up as an "Western Balkanic-like" influence on present-day Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians.

The Vlach explanation is questionable given the genetic profile of actual Vlach populations. Most Vlachs on G25 are genetically similar to Mainland Greeks, with significant Balkan and eastern Mediterranean influences. In contrast, the southern admixture seen in Southern Poles and Western Ukrainians seems to be more broadly western Balkan in nature.





Any thoughts?

This is probably White Croatian connection. You have a topic here.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38922-Balkan-genetic-influence-in-Slavic-peoples

Austrian settlers and Vlachs? First we need to see original records that speak of these migrations. Vlachs did go through the Carpathians, but I2a in Ukraine or Poland do not have source of their I2a branches in the Balkans. When we look at many Slavic autosomal results, in most cases the Balkans are shown. Who comes to Belarus from the Balkans? Obviously, it is about the common origin of majority of the Slavs in their ancestral homeland, which is the White Croatia ie Croatians.
[h=1][/h]
 
If we follow the Greek sources, the Croats who moved to Croatia were probably from the N/NW of modern day Croatia, 'near Bavaria'. Maybe north of Bavaria.
 
Your reasoning is ok, and I think all three factors played it, but there is a third you overlooked, which is that Croats came from this region probably, and that there was admixture in situ, even before the ancestral Croats departed to the South. Like admixture from Dacian, Celtic, Illyrian and generalised more '"Roman" people from around the Carpathians, which mixed with the local Slavic tribes. Therefore its not just backflow, its not just later admixture, which certainly took place as well, but local admixture of the ancient Slavs of the region. Carpatho-Balkan admixture of South Eastern Poles, Western Ukrainians and Slovaks is therefore present, but to a large extend of ancient origin.
I know of South Slavic individuals which moved to those areas, but this is a low level gene flow which can't account for the observable pattern. And again, not even in actual modern Croats not all of the non-Proto-Slavic/Baltoslavic ancestry is from the West Balkans, some of it was likely picked up in the North Carpathians and on route to the Balkans:

The local Balkan admixture in modern Croats is real of course, but not all of the shift away from the very North Eastern Baltoslavic/Early Slavic profile needs to be explained by it. The tribes which moved South were already more "Slovak-like" than the very Baltoslavic profiles of early Northern Slavs.

Very interesting, you might be right. That would mean White Croats were having this mixed Dacian/Illyrian/Celtic admixture already on the territory of present-day Galicia and that also means modern Croats inherited more genetics from them than their Slavic admixture percentage level.
 
This is probably White Croatian connection. You have a topic here.

When we look at many Slavic autosomal results, in most cases the Balkans are shown. Who comes to Belarus from the Balkans? Obviously, it is about the common origin of majority of the Slavs in their ancestral homeland, which is the White Croatia ie Croatians.

Thanks, I will check these topics.

About Slavic autosomal results. If you look at PCA with Modern Slavic averages plotted, (unfortunately I can't post it there at the moment) all Ukrainian regional averages and Russians are approximately at one place and Galician Ukrainians ( including some Southeast Poles ) are between their North Slavic compatriots and Modern Balkanic populations, so obviously this non-Slavic admixture it's not the thing that other Ukrainian/Polish subgroups carry at such level.
 
If we follow the Greek sources, the Croats who moved to Croatia were probably from the N/NW of modern day Croatia, 'near Bavaria'. Maybe north of Bavaria.

This is an open question, but the primary source also mentions that Croats have Hungarians and also Pechenegs who invade their country. So it is probably southern Poland and southeastern Ukraine. But we cannot claim this without archaeogenetic data.
 
Thanks, I will check these topics.

About Slavic autosomal results. If you look at PCA with Modern Slavic averages plotted, (unfortunately I can't post it there at the moment) all Ukrainian regional averages and Russians are approximately at one place and Galician Ukrainians ( including some Southeast Poles ) are between their North Slavic compatriots and Modern Balkanic populations, so obviously this non-Slavic admixture it's not the thing that Northern Slavic populations carry at such level ( except Slovaks and Czech people ).

I'm talking about public data that can be found on YouTube. These results are provided by genetic companies. Mainly the northern Slavs(private individuals from the Czech Republic, Russia, Ukraine, etc) have and Balkans in certain percentages even quite large. It is unlikely that it is a Vlach connection in populations that have strong R1a. It's obviously an older connection and genetic companies have not yet determined the original connections, so they roughly show the Balkans. And in fact, it is a common, mostly White Croatian connection. This is now clearly visible in MyTrueAncestry results.
 
This is an open question, but the primary source also mentions that Croats have Hungarians and also Pechenegs who invade their country. So it is probably southern Poland and southeastern Ukraine. But we cannot claim this without archaeogenetic data.

I have read it many times. Maybe they had something to do with the Prague culture. A more eastern location for the population of the origin myth is incompatible with the source in my opinion.

Maybe there were 'Eastern Croats' too but that doesn't mean that they were the ones who moved to Croatia.

This is what I believe about the Sclaveni of the Greek sources too, that they have a more NW origin. I mean relatively speaking.
 
I have read it many times. Maybe they had something to do with the Prague culture. A more eastern location for the population of the origin myth is incompatible with the source in my opinion.

Maybe there were 'Eastern Croats' too but that doesn't mean that they were the ones who moved to Croatia.

This is what I believe about the Sclaveni of the Greek sources too, that they have a more NW origin. I mean relatively speaking.

The original location is a matter of historiography and in Wiki article about White Croats we can find more theses. But the primary source itself DAI, clearly says that the ruler of Zachlumia is from the Vistula. And Historia Salonitana(13th century) talks about Croats which coming from Poland.
 

This thread has been viewed 3960 times.

Back
Top