David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[PMillitech]

To me, it appears that Krause and Reich, when it comes to the PIE origin, are rather driven by research bias and pet theories than by hard data. But that's just my two cents.

I can't imagine what two European males, and the entire Max Plank Institute, would gain by offering an Iranian (of all places) homeland to PIE. On the contrary, Steppe theory serves to fuel ethnocentric tendencies, so it makes sense if most of Western research would work to support it.. Steppe theory has been the default hypothesis, long before any genetic data, or any substantial archeological evidence was in it's favor, and IMO that strongly reflects research bias. Of course, with what we know today, we can reject the hypothesis that PIE came from the Steppe, with extraordinary certainty.

 

[PMillitech]

Ok but my question still stands. What Proto Indo European Language has been assigned to the Sredny Stog culture from the period 4500-3500 BC?

The scholarly consensus is that the now extinct Anatolian Indo European Language branch has the oldest IE language (Hittite) and Professor Anthony himself suggest that the Proto-Anatolian IE branch dates to as early as 4200 BC. So 1) Is there a Proto-Indo European language from Sredny Stog that can be placed before between from period 4500-4200 BC that can be potentially linked to the Anatolian IE branch and 2) Do we have genetic data suggesting migrating Males from Ukraine (Sredny Stog) brought the Proto-IE language from which the Anatolian IE branch was derived from?

Those are the questions I personally need to see answered. As long as the Anatolian IE branch is the oldest one and it precedes al the other IE language branches and it is dated to earlier than both Corded Ware (3000 BC to 2300 BC) and Yamnaya (3300 BC to 2600 BC), both of which we know from genetic data were involved in the spread of IE from the Steppes into the rest of Europe, Yamnaya into SE Europe (Balkans) and Greece, Corded Ware into Northern, Central and Western Europe and likely also Italy (although I think Yamnaya may have been more involved in Italy, but that is not a definitive statement, just personal gut feeling). So the Kurgan Hypothesis is and has been supported by the genetic data explaining the spread of IE into those areas I mentioned. So I want to be clear on that point.

What is the question at hand is where was the original Proto Indo European language homeland? Was it also in the Steppes and thus the Steppes were both the home of Proto-Indo European and the place from which it spread into the rest of Europe or was the Proto-Indo European Language Homeland South of the Caucus Mountains in what is modern Armenia/Northern Iran?

The Anatolian IE branch being the oldest and sitting there with basically little genetic turnover really from the Mesolithic to the bronze age is something that has to be answered to definitively settle the question of where the PIE homeland is. IF it can be shown that some Steppe ancestry came into Anatolia around the same time the Anatolian branch of IE developed, then that would make the case for the PIE homeland in the Steppe better supported by the data.

So that is my take on it. And as I have said a million times since I have been at Eupedia since 2019, I have no emotional ties to the PIE being in the Steppes or South of the Caucus Mountains.

Not sure why people believe because Hittite is oldest known IE language, it must be the oldest one in existence. Perhaps, because linguistic analysis, has converged on the date 4500 BC? You should know for the past ~20 years there has been the argument against the late PIE date, and in favor of an earlier date ~6500BC - Reich, the entire Max Plank Institute, and others have, independently, supported that early date for PIE.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Not sure why people believe because Hittite is oldest known IE language, it must be the oldest one in existence. Perhaps, because linguistic analysis, has converged on the date 4500 BC? You should know for the past ~20 years there has been the argument against the late PIE date, and in favor of an earlier date ~6500BC - Reich, the entire Max Plank Institute, and others have, independently, supported that early date for PIE.

Again, did my post say dogmatically I have a position. I am not a dogmatist on the question of when and where PIE originated.

 

[PMillitech]

Yamnaya can be modeled entirely with Steppe + EEF.

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 0.0290% / 0.02899665 | R3P
70.5 RUS_Progress_EnG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94%
17.3 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
12.2 UKR_Trypillia:I2110___BC_3747___Coverage_14.11%

The only thing is that going back far enough you do find Iran_N in these populations (don't know if the same applies to qpAdm though). Perhaps this component was already long established in the North Caucasus, there may have been migrations millennia earlier that increased Iran_N in the region, but these are not to be associated with Proto-Indo-European.

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 0.0594% / 0.05936254
34.3 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
27.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371___Coverage_84.07%
25.0 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
5.9 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Coverage_23.08%
3.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%
3.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45.31%

Target: RUS_Progress_En
Distance: 0.0495% / 0.04953731
38.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
20.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086___Coverage_23.08%
19.2 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131___Coverage_70.73%
13.4 RUS_Veretye_MesoES001___BC_10761___Coverage_97.50%
8.9 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212___Coverage_79.77%

I couldn't tell when Iran_N arrived, but it is present in samples dated almost around 5000 BC.

[TD="class: xl66"]Sample[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]IRAN_N %[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66"]RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]4,1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66"]RUS_Progress_EnG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]11,3[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66"]RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I1722___BC_4458___Coverage_14.76%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]5[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66"]RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2055___BC_4558___Coverage_15.17%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]3,3[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66"]RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2056___BC_4516___Coverage_59.59%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]5,1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66"]RUS_Vonyuchka_En:VJ1001___BC_4280___Coverage_70.20%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]16,6[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66"]RUS_Progress_EnG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]6,7[/TD]

You need to understand the difference between proximal and ultimate sources of admixture. The Iran_Neo component is obviously higher than you suggest with your result, but this is largely masked through a conduit of "CHG" (nearly isomorphic with Iran). With wave models of admixture between population A ---> C, it must transition through population B. You can always claim the source of admixture in target population C, was population B, on the basis of some minute genetic variation. In the case of Yamnaya, the much of the origin of variation was ultimately Iran, which under continuous gene flow through the Caucuses, made it's way to the Steppe.

 

[firetown]

Iran is just a land where some people lived there in different periods, for many reasons a large number of these people migrated to other lands in the ancient times and it is still happening in the modern times.

Can you name one?

 

[Moja]

Can you name one?

Look at it: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-38071-8

In summary, our study of future climate in Iran depicts a grim picture concerning more frequent extreme wet and dry periods, more extended periods of extremely hot temperatures, and higher frequency of floods across the country. Combination of these events, especially in the three Desert climate zones, may create an uninhabitable living condition as also suggested by other studies.

 

[Alan]

I was suspecting Mesopotamians/Sumerians to turn out to be very rich in Iran Neo or Zagros farmer ancestry. But it is possible that Northern Mesopotamians were more Natufian-rich than Southerners. Who knows? Besides, it was long believed that Natufians were the first or oldest farmers. Nevertheless, according to more recent research, it seems that the Natufians were not the world’s oldest farmers.However, they were likely the earliest domesticators of dogs and other animals.




http://www.academia.edu/9358532/Natufians_A_proto_agriculturalist_society_from_th




https://www.chegg.com/flashcards/natufians-and-agricultural-origins-in-the-east-4c2ff5ad-101d-4b40-800b-f3dc2bb66b42/deck

Anyway, the Middle East was one of the earliest cultural powerhouses.

From what I have seen of the samples. These Mesopotamian samples are roughly inbetween Anatolian-Neo, Levant-Neo, Iranian-Neo and CHG.
In fact They appear genetically very close to Iran-Hasanlu which is Iran-Ganj Dareh which is Iran-Calcholithic. Iran-Calcholithic itself is aleady more CHG derived than it is Iran-Neo. It also has a significant Anatolian-Neo and Levant-Neo admixture. And now it seems like we know where the latter ancestry came from. It was probably from Northern Mesopotamia.

 

[Alan]

Scholars of the Max Planck Institute also say: "we are quite certain that the Indo-European languages ultimately originated in the Fertile Crescent, as proponents of the Anatolian theory suppose, but not, as they suggest, in western and central Anatolia; rather, it emerged from northern Iran."

Almost all ancient toponyms in the north of Iran have Proto-Indo-European origins, for example the highest mountain in Gilan is Somamoos from Proto-Indo-European *súm̥mos "highest, summit".

We find throughout the Western and Northern regions of the Iranian plateau several people/civilizations/cultures who spoke languages which we were not able to identify nor they appear related to each other.

Elamite to the South appears to be completely distinct from Kassite and Lullubi which they just border. Mannaean is also completely a isolate.

This region seems to be a hotspot of isolated archaic cultures and languages. which makes it very plausible that one of those could very well have been Proto or Pre Proto Indo European around the Southern shores of the Caspian see (Northwest, North, Northeast Iran) or North Mesopotamia, East Caucasus.

 

[Alan]

I can't explain the emphasis on Natufians since we already have a paper about south east Turkey and it showed that the farmers were modelled with a modest Levant_N-like ancestry(10-20%), which was a very confusing choice imo since Levant_N was around 50% Natufian and 50% Anatolia_N or Iran_N, which made up the rest of the ancestry of the aforesaid farmers, so in the end the true natufian was around 5%-10%.

The stronger appearance of Levant-N is also in the Bronze Age samples. Which fits perfectly with the migration of Akkadians(Ancestors of the Assyrians, Babylonians) into Mesopotamia in the very same timeframe.
The samples look much more like Anatolian-N + CHG/Iran-N. With Levant-N getting prominent more only around the Bronze Age.

 

[Alan]

Seems pretty clear to me. I don't understand the intense resistance to it. What would be so terrible about the Etruscans and the LATINS (as there seems to also be some resistance to including some of the Republican Era Romans in the "Latin" group) having a bit of that Iran Neo pulse.

Unlike some, I'm also not convinced that some academics can actually distinguish Iran Neo from CHG. That's why they put both names.

Yes, this is an old calculator, but Dienekes knew what he was doing, more so than most of the academicians putting their names to papers.

The difference between Iran-Neo and CHG is basically the different amount of ANE like ancestry. And these are not singular components there are allo of transitional states in between. The same with Anatolian-Neo to Levant-Neo. The difference is basically higher amount of Natufian like ancetry in the latter.

 

[Alan]

I wonder what is the difference between Natufian / Levantine PPNA and Central Anatolia Neo.
I haven't seen any models in which both are present.
I guess that both were the similar to Dzudzuana pré-LGM but then both were isolated and they had a different drift.

As I mentioned before Central Anatolia had contacts with both the Levant and the Eastern Taurus Mts through their obsidian trade which allready existed .
That is how they adopted herding and agriculture, they did not invent it.

Domestication is supposed to have happened in the Eastern Taurus Mts.
From there first herders arrived in Louristan some 10.000 years ago.
That is where the oldest Iran Neo has been sampled.

Difference between Anatolian-N and Levant N = The Level of Natufian like dna vs the Level of Dzudzuana like dna.

Difference beween Anatolian and Levant-Neo to CHG & Iran-N = ANE admixture in the latter two. And the difference between CHG & Iran-N = The level of ANE admixture.

There is also no clear line of distinction between these components. There seems to be transitional components inbetween too since ancient times.

The three important components during Mesolithic in West Asia are Dzudzuana like, Natufian and ANE.

Dzudzuana (Anatolian -Mesolithic) is the core element in all the four other (CHG, Iran-N, Anatolian-N, Levant-N ). While what differentiates them is the level of Natufian and ANE admixture.

 

[Alan]

Depends what the flora and fauna were like thousands of years ago in the region of northern Iran which they claim was the area where Anatolian was spoken, yes?

We'll have to see all their arguments before we come to conclusions.

Also, let's remember that if they're talking about the steppe being the 2nd stage, we have to go very far back in history. CT would have nothing to do with it; much too far west.

Flora and Fauna in the North of the Iranian Plateau.

 

[Alan]

Indeed not that strange since we already have R1b-Z2103 from Hasanlu and Hajji Firuz Iron Age. Seems like R1b-Z2103 had quite a spread during the Iron Age in the region. Most of the R1b-Z2103 was probably replaced by Kurdish derived haplogroups like R1a and I2 after the Iron Age. Today the region is mostly populated by Kurds before that it was largely populated by Armenians and Assyrians, many of whom probably R1b-Z2103. Still interesting that they don't have any EHG ancestry because the already published samples Hasanlu IA and Hajji Firuz IA do have steppe ancestry, therefore EHG. Anyway, these samples are way too young to be related to anything PIE.

R1b-Z2103 is very widespred in Kurds of Northwest Iran. The map on Eupedia gives you a false impression because it is based on some samples in the Kordestan province. While only a fragment of Kurds in iran live in that province. The Kurds around Urmiya in the "West Azerbaijan" province or those in Kermanshah, Ilam and Lorestan have a massive amount of R1b next to R1a. "Urmiya" is the region where the Hasanlu sample is from. The Kordestan province seem to be a slight outlier with heavier R1a admixture because of it's Scythian history too. No wonder, the capital of the Royal Scythians in West Asia was basically in the Kordestan province known as Saqqez.

Also take in mind modern frequency of a Haplogroup doesn' say much about it's origin. The Armenian and Assyrian R1b is almost exclusively Z2103. While among the very Kurds in the same region you also find upclades like M269 (Ancestral). Which makes the R1b found in the Kurds much more diverse. I haven't seen any M269 in Armenians or Assyrians ( I might be wrong) which indicates for me founder effect.

 

[eupator]

While among the very Kurds in the same region you also find upclades like M269 (Ancestral). Which makes the R1b found in the Kurds much more diverse.

What does that even mean.

That their Y-DNA hasn't mutated for the past 6400 years?

If they test further they will find out their recent terminal mutation clades.

This whole Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 in West Asia is turning out to be the new salt mine post southern arc, this time for Iranic speakers.

The elephant in the room in this case being that these West Asian R1b-Z2103s branching out are essentially downstreams of the Proto-Armenians in the region.

 

[Moja]

We find throughout the Western and Northern regions of the Iranian plateau several people/civilizations/cultures who spoke languages which we were not able to identify nor they appear related to each other.
Elamite to the South appears to be completely distinct from Kassite and Lullubi which they just border. Mannaean is also completely a isolate.
This region seems to be a hotspot of isolated archaic cultures and languages. which makes it very plausible that one of those could very well have been Proto or Pre Proto Indo European around the Southern shores of the Caspian see (Northwest, North, Northeast Iran) or North Mesopotamia, East Caucasus.

All of them were Indo-European, phonologically, lexically, morphologically, and syntactically, the closest languages to Proto-Indo-European are the languages in the north/northwest of Iran, as a Kurd, you know that PIE labiovelar consonants (kʷ, gʷ) exist in Kurdish, they didn't exist neither in Iranian, nor Indo-Iranian languages. About Mazandarani language in the north if Iran:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazanderani_language

Mazandarani is rich in synonyms, some such nouns also retaining the gender they possessed in Indo-European times: for instance the words miš, gal, gerz all have the meaning of mouse, although they are not all of the same gender. While many Indo-Iranian languages use a masculine noun taking such related forms as muš or muska or mušk.

Latin glis is from Proto-Indo-European *gal- "mouse".

 

[Alan]

What does that even mean.

That their Y-DNA hasn't mutated for the past 6400 years?

If they test further they will find out their recent terminal mutation clades.

This whole Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 in West Asia is turning out to be the new salt mine post southern arc, this time for Iranic speakers.

The elephant in the room in this case being that these West Asian R1b-Z2103s branching out are essentially downstreams of the Proto-Armenians in the region.

M269 is upstream to Z2103. And it is not even just M269 but also much more ancestral M343. I just haven't been around for a long time and totally forgot it. Among Kurds you find Z2103, M269 and even more archaic M343.

Here is a list of Haplogroups found among Kurds. Interestingly there was even a Kurd from a study (Grugni et al 2012) who was just R1*-M173. There was even a Kurdish user active on this blog who was R1a* L62 (ancestral to z93 and z280). Kurds might or might not have the very high frequency of single Haplogroups but they are quite diverse when it comes to different clades.
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2014/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-xi.html

This means there are other clades older than z2103 also found in the region. Those m269 and M343 found in Kurdistan were one of the major reasons why Maciamo theorized a Central Asia (Northeast Iran) origin of R1b through Iranian Plateau to Kurdistan and from there to the Steppes.

The Armenians are heavy in R1b but from what I know all of them are Z2103. Which indicates a strong founder effect.

I personally think. R1b originated somewhere either on the eastern shores or the Northern shores of the Caspian. But reached the Iranian Plateau some 8 to 10000 years ago and from there expanded once again (in form of pre Proto Indo European or as the study calls it "Indo Hittite").

The Problem with some Steppe supporters with agenda is, they argue that a "Southern origin" of Indo European is unlikely because some CHG is already found on the Steppes prior to the formation of Yamnaya. Fine I agree.

But the VERY same people also see any EHG admixture or R lineages found in Western Asia as sign of Steppe admixture which absolutely makes no sense.

How does someone know or prove that this EHG like ancestry didn't already exist before the Steppe expansion in Western Asia. How does anyone prove R lineages didn't come to West Asia prior to the Steppe Indo European expansion. I mean R lineages and EHG predate the Indo Europeans by thousands if not ten thousands of years.

For example the very same "tools" certain people use to prove "Steppe" or EHG admixture in Early Bronze Age samples of West Asia. Also show EHG admixture in Mesolithic samples of West Asia. Like the Iran-Hotu sample. Which already shows EHG like admixture.

I doubt Indo Europeans "Invaded" North Iran over 12000 years ago.

Take the G25 tool as example. Use the very same coordinates to sample the Iran-Hotu (Mesolithic) sample and I am 100% sure it will pop up with visible amount of Steppe admixture. Which shows these tools can not differentiate between real Bronze Age Steppe Indo European influx and influx which predates the pre Bronze Age Steppe Indo Europeans.

Another thing many people don't seem to understand. Low levels of EHG like admixture in Anatolian or surrounding samples are not a sign of Steppe admixture if this EHG like admixture is already found in pre Indo European cultures in the very same region. It shows Steppe or Central Asian influx, true. But as noted above this predates the formation of Indo Europeans.

 

[eupator]

M269 is upstream to Z2103. And it is not even just M269 but also much more ancestral M343. I just haven't been around for a long time and totally forgot it. Among Kurds you find Z2103, M269 and even more archaic M343.

Their M269 means that they haven't tested further (or weren't able to) to reach their generation's terminal clade not that that their Y-DNA stopped mutating for the past 6400 years that is R-M269's TMRCA.

You need to understand these very basic stuff about population genetics in order to avoid making ridiculous grande statements, if you want to be taken seriously.

Also you need to read up,

Z2103 is not a 'founder' effect among Armenians, it's the primary Yamnaya haplogroup, found in BA Armenia and BA Hasanlu but also in other places where it's taken a different route, like, for example, in BA/IA Balkans.

 

[Alan]

Their M269 means that they haven't tested further (or weren't able to) to reach their generation's terminal clade not that that their Y-DNA stopped mutating for the past 6400 years that is R-M269's TMRCA.

It is M269* it means , this is a dead end of M269, because all the mutations needed for the known downstream clades are negative.
To give as example the Kurdish sample from the blog = 1x R1a*(L62+, L63+, SRY10831.2-, M17-)
It was done by 23andMe they tested for the Mutations L62, L63, SRY10831.2 and M17. And this sample was negative for SRY10831.2 & m17. Which means it is upstream to M17. Therefore a dead end of R1a*.

Or the R1b-M343>M269 (L23-) sample on the second blog. It means it was tested for the downstream mutation L23 and was negative. Therefore it is upstream to L23 (Ancestral).

Also most of these samples were done by 23andMe, ftdna and other big labs during a time when they were already testing far more downstream all the way to L23 and even further.
* indicates a dead end. A brother clade which didn't manage to reproduce effectively.

I edited my comment. Please read it again I also provided a link. There you can see the different clades. They are done mostly by the same companies which tests far further downstream.


Edit: here is the link again.
https://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2014/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-xi.html


Here is another link with more samples.
http://corduene.blogspot.com/2016/03/kurdish-tribes-y-dna-haplogroups.html

 

[eupator]

Incorrect It is M269* it means , this is a dead end of M269.

Quoted for hilarity.

You do you, mate.

 

[Riverman]

It is M269* it means , this is a dead end of M269, because all the mutations needed for the known downstream clades are negative.

Actually it means the opposite. It means they found markers for a downstream position, just a different branch than the already known ones and they need an additional tested member for this branch to define it. In many such cases, those * will create big new branches with many downstream members, including the current * cases, if so far undertested regions and people get more testing. It doesn't mean, in any case, that these * samples are particularly upstream, "old" or "dead ends" more than any other samples of these haplogroups, but rather parallel branch members of so far undefined subclades.