David Reich speech on steppe migrations-April 29, 2017

Maciamo

Greeks being as a R1a nation? Hmm.. Read the Cypriot y dna paper. There is 0 correlation with R1a and Greek language spread into Cyprus. Most R1a present today in Greece is from medieval Slavic settlers.

Mycenaeans could still be R1a. Remember Mycenae was pre-bronze age collapse. Everything went to hell at the end of their reign.

For the R1b in Armenia coming from Balkanes. There is no archaeological evidence and no genetic evidence. You simply don't want to accept that Anthony's theory was wrong about that.
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With Armenian being so strikingly close to Greek, I don't know how you can reasonably have such a strong anti-Balkan stance.
 
Yes they were exclusively Iranian related culture. Who later became Scythians mixing with Siberians and W Asians.
Indo Aryans were already in Indus valley at 2000 - 1600 bc that is why they don't need Sintashta but Yamna.
This is reflected in the ANI aDNA as well. This is why I have posited that Indo-Iranian was in fact very much like Indic and was likely spoken in East Yamnaya at the very least, if not all of Yamnaya at its latter stages. This why known Iranian speaking samples in the West have some EEF(Sarmatian), but those further East do not. Sintashta and Andronovo almost certainly spoke Iranian.
 
This is reflected in the ANI aDNA as well. This is why I have posited that Indo-Iranian was in fact very much like Indic and was likely spoken in East Yamnaya at the very least, if not all of Yamnaya at its latter stages. This why known Iranian speaking samples in the West have some EEF(Sarmatian), but those further East do not. Sintashta and Andronovo almost certainly spoke Iranian.

In fact, this is all but proven now.

We have known historical Iranian speakers' aDNA along with Indic speaking modern aDNA that shows Yamnaya ancestry rather than Sintashta/Andronovo.

Yamnaya spoke Indo-Iranian not PIE, at least at its latter stage.

As to the other details of my theory like early departures of Anatolian, Tocharian and Italo-Celtic, it seems to fit as well, but I don't know what exactly "early" means. Perhaps PIE is the tail end of Khavlynsk/Low Mikhaylovka/Stredy Stog.
 
Ah. This implies a latter influence of Germanic rather than generative.

before the chit-chat from reich , andrew garret the linguist spoke on the same thing

and the last speaker spoke on ancient chinese languages
 
before the chit-chat from reich , andrew garret the linguist spoke on the same thing

and the last speaker spoke on ancient chinese languages

As people are saying it probably has something to do with Gothic migrations.
 
Concerning that tree which as far as I understand is based on Chang et al computational model. Which can create exotic branchings.
Any tree that place the split between Indo Aryan and Iranian after 2000 BC is wrong wrong wrong.
You can have dozens of ancient dna from Sintashta and Andronovo You will not find the Indian L657.

Because it was not there and it made a leap frog directly from maybe Abashevo to Indus Valley.

Albanian being a Germanic language is also very funny.

Albanian is not Germanic.

It is the closest to Balto Slavic and it has link with Armenian, what is very logical.

Also with Iranian.

As Thracian.

Albanian is Satem as Balto Slavic, Armenian, Thracian and Iranian.


Kortlandt 2016:

http://www.baltistica.lt/index.php/baltistica/article/view/2284

"The closest relatives of Balto-Slavic are Albanian and Indo-Iranian. Together with Armenian and Thracian, these are the satǝm languages, which together with Greek and Phrygian constitute the eastern part of Classic Indo-European."
 
For any one who wants to discuss the things he said.

It's really all in the title.
Ancient DNA suggests Steppe migrations spread Indo-European languages


I personally sort of did a double take at this: No Steppe ancestry in aDNA data from Balkans and Anatolia.

So, no steppe from the Balkans into Anatolia either. If true, either Anatolian languages came south over the Caucasus, or the original Pre-or-proto Indo-European arose somewhere in Anatolia, as some of us have been saying for a long time was a possibility.

I wonder if my other suggestion at one time, that Greek came through Anatolia, could be true. That or it came with almost no people. How ironic if that should turn out to be true, given how often the Mycenaens were used to illuminate Indo-European societies: it may be a template for them but they might not be steppe people?



If it did come from the Caucasus and then across Anatolia, then it's a pincer movement from the Caucasus with one arrow going into the steppe, mixing there with EHG and then moving into Europe, and another arrow going from the Caucasus into the rest of Anatolia, the Balkans, and on to the rest of southern Europe.

If that's the case then Pagani et al may be onto something, and the "Indo- European component" may be some group related to "Caucasians".

Sintashta not an ancestor of Indic peoples (and Andrnovo?). So much for all those statistics predicting they would be... I just love all the pretending going on over at Eurogenes that they never thought any such thing. :) Has the thread been deleted?
Angela, where can i find this speech?
 
where do you think the german and albanian link came from or are you better than david reich?

Hallstatt culture from the proto-Ilyrians. Same reason Albanian was linked with Balto-Slavic which also Thracian has been.
 
Hallstatt culture from the proto-Ilyrians. Same reason Albanian was linked with Balto-Slavic which also Thracian has been.

I know the illyrian mixed with the gallic-celts to form Halstatt and then the celts proceeded in the next 400 years to advance south towards Greece and absorb the illyrians on the way

But as I said many times....there are no true illyrians , there is just many different tribes in Illyria the Geographical named land ...............Illyria is like scandinavia in terminology ( a geographical area )
 
I know the illyrian mixed with the gallic-celts to form Halstatt and then the celts proceeded in the next 400 years to advance south towards Greece and absorb the illyrians on the way

But as I said many times....there are no true illyrians , there is just many different tribes in Illyria the Geographical named land ...............Illyria is like scandinavia in terminology ( a geographical area )

Hallstatt is too west. Basarabi, Proto-Scythian, Chernoles and similar cultures in Iron age much better connect forreruners of languages, Balto Slavic, Albanian, and further Armenian, and Iranian, surely and Thracian (all Satem).


hallstatt.GIF
 
Albanian is not Germanic.

It is the closest to Balto Slavic and it has link with Armenian, what is very logical.

Also with Iranian.

As Thracian.

Albanian is Satem as Balto Slavic, Armenian, Thracian and Iranian.


Kortlandt 2016:

http://www.baltistica.lt/index.php/baltistica/article/view/2284

"The closest relatives of Balto-Slavic are Albanian and Indo-Iranian. Together with Armenian and Thracian, these are the satǝm languages, which together with Greek and Phrygian constitute the eastern part of Classic Indo-European."

I won't say that the article is wrong but a few things.

Irrespective of my views on it, a link of Albanian and Germanic has been supported by other scholars. I don't agree to be frank but you should refute their arguments.

(Look, though. In page 359 he compares reconstructed 'Indo-Ir./Balto-Sl.' pronouns to attested Attic Greek ones. That doesn't have to do much with his arguments but it's comparing apples to oranges. I don't take seriously into account those who do it)

I personally believe Albanian has a Phrygian element too. And Phrygian in some ways connects Greek with Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian.

We don't know much about 'Thracian'. Actually there are some inscriptions which are undepichered and seem incomprehensible.

Rolisteneas Nerenea tiltean ēsko Arazea domean Tilezupta miē era zēlta

I think in that incription 'domean' is translated as 'woman'. What is it's IE cognate? It seems superficially similar to English woman but that comes from
wīfmann. We then can say that is is related to PIE *dem, *dom, Gk. domos, Lt. domus, OCS domŭ = home, house. So it is the person who stays in house or who rules the house if we want something more feminist :p and theoretically it can be correct but we can't even verify that the way the scholar chose to seperate the words is correct because they are seperated like that in the ring.

Rolisteneasn ereneatil teanēskoa razeadom eantilezu ptamiēe raz ēlta
(What is transcribed as
ē can also be h)
 
I know the illyrian mixed with the gallic-celts to form Halstatt and then the celts proceeded in the next 400 years to advance south towards Greece and absorb the illyrians on the way

But as I said many times....there are no true illyrians , there is just many different tribes in Illyria the Geographical named land ...............Illyria is like scandinavia in terminology ( a geographical area )
So the celts just absorbed over 70 huge illyrian tribes in a matter of a few hundred years? :D
I do not know where you get your information, but you should try reading Aleksandar Stipcevic. He is a yugoslav like you, yet he accomplishes to understand that politics shouldn't always come before truth. Truth actually matter for some people : )
Stipcevic paints a near perfect picture of what was going on at that time. Only the more northern Illyrians got celtic influence(and it was not much). And as we all know, the celts didn't absorb people in the balkans(a few slaves and women maybe) at that time. They usually just raided around the countryside, while they made cities and towns pay tributes(or they would get robbed).
King Attalos(or some other king related to him) of Pergamon eventually kicked their butts out of Anatolia though. And if you know anything from history, then you should know that raiders usually take the easiest prey. And in the balkans that holds true too. When Gauls and celts raided, they usually raided the more compactly settled lowlands and towns, not the mountainous areas. And for your information, the Illyrians lived mostly in the highlands. That is also why you South slavs have never been able to completely subdue the northern Albanians. Mountains are natural fortresses. It is impossible for an bypassing celtic army to assimilate/absorb over 70 different tribes, all hardened and armed to the bones. And even if anyone would listen to your distortions of history, how come the celts left almost no genes or any sign of their language in the balkans?(except maybe some minor few words, which are inevitable)
 
I know the illyrian mixed with the gallic-celts to form Halstatt and then the celts proceeded in the next 400 years to advance south towards Greece and absorb the illyrians on the way

But as I said many times....there are no true illyrians , there is just many different tribes in Illyria the Geographical named land ...............Illyria is like scandinavia in terminology ( a geographical area )

In the first sentence you say that the celts absorbed the illyrians. And in the next you say that the illyrians didn't really exist, but that it is only a geographical area. How could the celts absorb the illyrians if the illyrians did not exist? How could there be an indoeuropean language north of illyria(celtic), and one south of illyria(greek), and none in between. Then how did the albanians pop up in between the celts and greeks? Then according to you albanian language should be a mix between greek and celtic languages right? Does albanian look anything like a hellenized celtic language? Or a celtizized greek language? I really really REALLY hope that you are just intentionally spreading fake information. Because if you really believe those things yourself, then yea. I dont even know what to say man. Normally i would advice you to go see a psychiatrist or something, but i sincerely do not think that anyone will be able to help washing this fake reality out of your mind, if you really believe in these things yourself.
 
But anyway, does anyone know where i can find more info on this speech?
I found his old speech in one of Angelas older post, but he doesn't talk linguistics at all in the speech.

Btw, is that map where albanian is branching of germanic legit? I mean, is that Reich and Garretts suggestion on how the phylogeny of IE looks like?
Could be cool if albanian were on the same branch as germanic languages.
 
I won't say that the article is wrong but a few things.

Irrespective of my views on it, a link of Albanian and Germanic has been supported by other scholars. I don't agree to be frank but you should refute their arguments.

(Look, though. In page 359 he compares reconstructed 'Indo-Ir./Balto-Sl.' pronouns to attested Attic Greek ones. That doesn't have to do much with his arguments but it's comparing apples to oranges. I don't take seriously into account those who do it)

I personally believe Albanian has a Phrygian element too. And Phrygian in some ways connects Greek with Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian.

We don't know much about 'Thracian'. Actually there are some inscriptions which are undepichered and seem incomprehensible.

Rolisteneas Nerenea tiltean ēsko Arazea domean Tilezupta miē era zēlta

I think in that incription 'domean' is translated as 'woman'. What is it's IE cognate? It seems superficially similar to English woman but that comes from
wīfmann. We then can say that is is related to PIE *dem, *dom, Gk. domos, Lt. domus, OCS domŭ = home, house. So it is the person who stays in house or who rules the house if we want something more feminist :p and theoretically it can be correct but we can't even verify that the way the scholar chose to seperate the words is correct because they are seperated like that in the ring.

Rolisteneasn ereneatil teanēskoa razeadom eantilezu ptamiēe raz ēlta
(What is transcribed as
ē can also be h)

Kortlandt in his article (2016) gives contemporary knowledge.

It is interesting for example American linguists and mathematicians did one extensively researching for Indo European languages where found Albanian is the closest to Balto Slavic.

What is interesting they found that Albanian is furthest from the Latin.

In their research they take only words from investigated IE language for which they were sure that not borrowed from other IE language.

Of course it is not disputed, Albanian has Germanic elements. Proto-Albanian, Thracian, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Germanic, all were close together for example in territory of todays Romania and beyond (East Europe).

East European cultures of iron age (Basarabi, Chernoles, Proto-Scythian and similar) were in link with Hallsttat culture.

Eastern_and_Central_Europe_around_750_BC.png


It is logical that Albanian is not Centum as Germanic languages.

Albanian is Satem as Balto-Slavic, Thracian, Armenian, Iranian (if we speak about Iranian languages especially someone can find any similarities between Albanian and Taylish and generally Nortwesthern Iranian languages).

Of course Albanian could have similarities with Phrygian.
 
Of course it is not disputed, Albanian has Germanic elements. Proto-Albanian, Thracian, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Germanic, all were close together for example in territory of todays Romania and beyond (East Europe).

The only marked Germanic elements in Albanian derive from East Germanic dialects, mostly via Slavic.
 
The only marked Germanic elements in Albanian derive from East Germanic dialects, mostly via Slavic.

What is most logical. Balto Slavic and Germanic always had long border and mixing. And Albanian borrowing from Balto Slavic took some Germanic elements, but it could be possible that Albanian somewhat borrowed directly from any Eastern German tribe.
 
What is most logical. Balto Slavic and Germanic always had long border and mixing. And Albanian borrowing from Balto Slavic took some Germanic elements, but it could be possible that Albanian somewhat borrowed directly from any Eastern German tribe.

Yes, I think what makes Albanian an oddball is that it readily soaked up foreign loanwords, presumably due to the relative underdevelopment of early Albanian society. Albanian-Slavic interactions are an interesting subject of study in this regard. Matthew C. Curtis (2012) summarizes it as follows: the significantly larger body of Slavic loanwords into Albanian is characterized by words pertaining to farming, cultural objects and nature, whereas the less numerous Albanian terms in Slavic relate to heroic virtue and family relations. It's an interesting dynamic and I think it explains to an extent the development of the Albanian language.
 
Kortlandt in his article (2016) gives contemporary knowledge.

I don't believe you care about the truth. The article you posted isn't about the similarites between Albanian and Balto-Slavic. He wants to prove that 'a comparison of Balto-Slavic with Indo-Iranian leads to a reconstruction of an early stage of Indo-European' and he just states that Albanian appears to be' the closest relative of Balto-Slavic'. Irrespective of if that is correct or not that article isn't about it and can't be used to support it.
 

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