Do modern Europeans partly descend from Neanderthal ?

[Megalophias]

Because we don't have Neanderthal mtDNA either. Sauce for the goose.

 

[Mark]

Another possibly concurrent reason for their Y DNA being absent is that Neanderthal tribes, many having been matriarchal, slowly replaced their males with superior hunters from other non-Neanderthal tribes. Just a hypothesis.

 

[Angela]

To my knowledge we have no idea whether they had a matriarchal culture. What we do know is that the male hybrids seem to have been unable to reproduce. That would mean the gene flow into us would have been through female hybrids and since no Neanderthal mtDna has survived it might be that the offspring were of Neanderthal males and homo sapiens sapiens females.

 

[Mark]

To my knowledge we have no idea whether they had a matriarchal culture. What we do know is that the male hybrids seem to have been unable to reproduce. That would mean the gene flow into us would have been through female hybrids and since no Neanderthal mtDna has survived it might be that the offspring were of Neanderthal males and homo sapiens sapiens females.

Makes sense, I’ve read that before yes, that would be hybrid males with non-neanderthal females.

 

[firetown]

Because we don't have Neanderthal mtDNA either.

Not entirely true. Read through Maciamo's posts in this thread.

What we do know is that the male hybrids seem to have been unable to reproduce.

We don't know that. This was an assumption made based on Neanderthal y-DNA missing in modern man.

 

[Angela]

Not entirely true. Read through Maciamo's posts in this thread.We don't know that. This was an assumption made based on Neanderthal y-DNA missing in modern man.

No, that isn't entirely what it was based upon. You should re-read the papers.

 

[firetown]

No, that isn't entirely what it was based upon. You should re-read the papers.

I have been reading and re-reading them, Angela. And each of them has statements along the lines of

these genetic differences may have triggered the immune system of a pregnant Homo sapiens to attack her foetus if she bred with a Neanderthal.

There is no certainty behind this theory.

 

[Phil95]

Why don't they descend fully from Neanderthal and not partly !

I have read many papers on Neanderthal disappearance : they all explain that they disappear following the arrival of Modern Humans coming out from Africa and there were interbreeding between them resulting in up to 4% DNA sharing with non African today humans.

The 2010 paper from Max Planck institute (Science 328 (5979), 710-722 )concludes to this sharing percentage by comparing Neanderthal genomes of 3 individuals to genomes of 5 present-day humans and not with genomes of Homo Sapiens contemporary to Neanderthals individuals ! I didn't notice that striking detail the first times I read the paper but it makes a big difference : the percentage could have been very much higher if comparison have been made with 40000 years old modern humans !

The study on Oase 1 is very informative : DNA analysis of Oase 1 since 2015 has made a number of significant findings.

About 6-9% of the genome is Neanderthal in origin. This is the highest percentage of archaic introgression found in an anatomically modern human and together with the linkage disequilibrium patterns indicates that Oase 1 had a relatively-recent Neanderthal ancestor – about four to six generations earlier. (Wikipedia)
This fossil has 6-9 % of Neanderthal genome and it is said that he had a Neanderthal ancestor four to six generations earlier (that is between 100 to 200 years earlier so very very close !) It is strange to have still 4% in present days humans after more than 10000 generations !

I have never found a paper with a clear evidence that Neanderthal is not a direct Homo Sapiens ancestor but for me, it is the simplest explanation to all the questions. There was not migration from Africa, Homo Sapiens descends directly from Neanderthal and the differences we see between contemporary individuals are due to a large diversity among these populations. This diversity was likely very large : to illustrate that look at the big differences we have between the 5 skulls from the same site Dmanisi and from the same age (-1.8 Ma). That is so large that they thought there were different species !

I am interested to have references to papers showing strong evidence that we don't descend directly from Neanderthal !

 

[Phil95]

It is strange to have still 4% in present days humans after more than 10000 generations !

Sorry, it's 1000 generations instead of 10000 !

 

[Ygorcs]

It is not strange that after 1000 generations there is still 3-4% of Neanderthal DNA. If almost all people who procreated and mixed along all those generations also had some percentage of Neanderthal DNA, that ancestry would have no reason to be pulled out of the genetic pool of non-Africans. If you mix a 10% Neanderthal man with a 8% Neanderthal woman, you'll have a 9% Neanderthal child, and if that child mixes with a 5% Neandertha child, you'll end up with 7% of Neanderthal DNA. The percentages won't drop suddenly unless there had been a really massive replacement of non-Africans by later waves of Africans without any mixing with Neanderthals.

Besides, the fact that modern non-African and modern Subsaharan Africans without any hint of Neanderthal ancestry share a lot more between each other than either of them to Neanderthals from a mere 30,000 years ago (a very short time in bio-evolutionary terms, not enough to make Neanderthals so genetically and phenotypically different from present-day non-Africans) certainly demonstrates that the best explanation is that out-of-Africa people intermixed with Neanderthals in different times and places, and that Neanderthal ancestry was gradually reduced and then stabilized due to the heavy expansion of Basal Eurasian (people who were most similar to other non-Africans, but lacked any Neanderthal mixing at all) in the Late Paleolithic, and due to some negative selection against some Neanderthal-derived genes.

Modern humans share a lot more with modern humans from 30,000-20,000 years ago than to clearly Neanderthal individuals from just before that time, before they got extinct with some traces absorbed by modern humans. If those non-African humans were fully Neanderthal, you'd have to presume that a huge genetic transformation happened in just a few milennia. That just doesn't make sense.

 

[epoch]

Not entirely true. Read through Maciamo's posts in this thread.We don't know that. This was an assumption made based on Neanderthal y-DNA missing in modern man.

The male infertility issue is based on the fact that the X-chromosome has substantially less Neanderthal on it than non-sexual chromosomes.

See Haldane's rule.

PS: Greg Cochrane states that he thinks the split between humans and Neanderthals is far to recent for Haldane's Rule to be applied.

Trigger Warning for the weakhearted: Greg Cochrane is on the SPLC's shitlist.

 

[epoch]

I have read many papers on Neanderthal disappearance : they all explain that they disappear following the arrival of Modern Humans coming out from Africa and there were interbreeding between them resulting in up to 4% DNA sharing with non African today humans.

The 2010 paper from Max Planck institute (Science 328 (5979), 710-722 )concludes to this sharing percentage by comparing Neanderthal genomes of 3 individuals to genomes of 5 present-day humans and not with genomes of Homo Sapiens contemporary to Neanderthals individuals ! I didn't notice that striking detail the first times I read the paper but it makes a big difference : the percentage could have been very much higher if comparison have been made with 40000 years old modern humans !

The study on Oase 1 is very informative : DNA analysis of Oase 1 since 2015 has made a number of significant findings.

About 6-9% of the genome is Neanderthal in origin. This is the highest percentage of archaic introgression found in an anatomically modern human and together with the linkage disequilibrium patterns indicates that Oase 1 had a relatively-recent Neanderthal ancestor – about four to six generations earlier. (Wikipedia)
This fossil has 6-9 % of Neanderthal genome and it is said that he had a Neanderthal ancestor four to six generations earlier (that is between 100 to 200 years earlier so very very close !) It is strange to have still 4% in present days humans after more than 10000 generations !

I have never found a paper with a clear evidence that Neanderthal is not a direct Homo Sapiens ancestor but for me, it is the simplest explanation to all the questions. There was not migration from Africa, Homo Sapiens descends directly from Neanderthal and the differences we see between contemporary individuals are due to a large diversity among these populations. This diversity was likely very large : to illustrate that look at the big differences we have between the 5 skulls from the same site Dmanisi and from the same age (-1.8 Ma). That is so large that they thought there were different species !

I am interested to have references to papers showing strong evidence that we don't descend directly from Neanderthal !

It's done by investigating linkage (dis)equilibrum. Look it up. It's how you find *unknown* admixtures as well, such as the million year old impuls in Denisova. It's actually far simpler than you think

 

[Phil95]

It's done by investigating linkage (dis)equilibrium. Look it up. It's how you find *unknown* admixtures as well, such as the million year old impuls in Denisova. It's actually far simpler than you think

If it is what you call a clear evidence, it is anything but clear !
Could you explain with simple words, thank you ?

 

[Sonnenburg]

That means Neandertal DNA in Haplogroup I1 is from Female that got pregnant by Cro-Magnon male, no? If Neandertal males couldn’t make Cro-Magnon Females pregnant or male offsprings couldn’t survive due to ‘incompatibility’, that would indicate that Cro-Magnon males could get Neanderthal Females pregnant successfully. Is there evidence that Neanderthal males got ‘exterminated’ or legitimately replaced just because of Neanderthal Females ‘preferred’ Cro-Magnon Male as a mate?

 

[bigblob]

Neanderthal genes still influence the skin colour and hair colour of modern Eurasians. They influence the behaviour and immune system of modern Eurasians and the brain and skull shape of Europeans. Europeans especially are nothing but Neanderthal hybrids. Asians also interbred with two groups of Denisovan.

So why is it so difficult for some peoples to acknowledge they are nothing but Neanderthal hybrids?

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-genes-help-shape-how-many-modern-humans-look

 

[Angela]

Two percent of our genome makes us Neanderthal/Human hybrids? The vast majority of Neanderthal dna in humans has been purged through selection because it was detrimental, including large chunks of the X chromosome according to a recent paper.

The Neanderthal de-pigmentation genes largely have nothing to do with de-pigmentation in homo sapiens sapiens. The major ones weren't present in Neanderthals.

You really should read all the recent papers before commenting.

 

[bigblob]

From Eupedia, modern humans likely inerited light skin and hair colours from continous interbreeding with Neanderthals:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/neanderthal_facts_and_myths.shtml

This also applies to behaviour, immunity to diseases and according to some scientists, the shape of modern European skull and brain.

So considering that Neanderthal DNA is still influencing the genes of modern humans in the above ways, modern Europeans are nothing but NEANDERTHAL HYBRIDS! Asians also interbred with Denisovan.

Neanderthal looking just like a modern European, his descendants:

 

[Angela]

From Eupedia, modern humans likely inerited light skin and hair colours from continous interbreeding with Neanderthals:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/neanderthal_facts_and_myths.shtml

This also applies to behaviour, immunity to diseases and according to some scientists, the shape of modern European skull and brain.

So considering that Neanderthal DNA is still influencing the genes of modern humans in the above ways, modern Europeans are nothing but NEANDERTHAL HYBRIDS! Asians also interbred with Denisovan.

Neanderthal looking just like a modern European, his descendants:

Indeed, and what camera did the photographer use for his time travel?

You have understood neither the article nor my posts above.

Try again. I suggest some re-reading of both. Please read the recent Neanderthal papers again as well.

 

[Agudot]

Yo siempre he le?do que los cruces sapiens neandertales se produjeron en Oriente Medio

 

[bigblob]

Blonde hair, white skin and blue eyes are only indigenous to Europe and found nowhere else. How can it be you have modern humans living in the exact same areas where the blonde, light skin, blue eyed Neanderthal lived and then claim they both developed light skin, blonde hair and blue eyes seperately? Its absolutely ridiculous. Sometimes I think most scientists are idiots that publish rubbish because they have to publish something.

Finally, some scientists have been claiming, its likely that modern Europeans likely got their genes for light hair,skin and eyes from Neanderthals because Neanderthals also had those traits. Absolutely right.