does R1b-V88 originate from the Iron Gate ?

Thanks Geneticker. One of the Neolithic Ukraine HGs also had R1b V88.
 
Genetiker said:
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
Click to expand...
Till we find even older pre R1b V88 somewhere else. We should also make a point that we don't have true R1b-88 confirmed yet. One thing is certain R1b haplogoup was very movable and transferable through paleolithic and mesolithic. Khvalynsk is EHG, Iron Gate is WHG.
 
Genetiker said:
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
Click to expand...

Thank you Genetiker.
Both were pre-V88 but not the founding father of V88, because both samples are negativ for some V88 SNP's and both are younger than the TMRCA of R1b-V88 which is estimated 11.7 ka.
But they were related to the founding father of V88 who could have lived in the same neighbourhood.

Or maybe not. We also have the pre-I1 in Stora Farvor and the (pre-)I1 in Hungarian LBK, quite a distance apart.
 
Genetiker said:
It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
Click to expand...

A white god.
 
Genetiker said:
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
Click to expand...

Many thanks... Is there another sample that is R among those from Romania?
 
LeBrok said:
We should also make a point that we don't have true R1b-88 confirmed yet.
Click to expand...

The early Neolithic Spanish sample I0410 is definitely V88. It's on the Y7777 branch of V88 that's ancestral to the Middle Eastern and African Y7771 branch, among others.
 
Brennos said:
The authors corrected it and the sample is no more R-V88 in the supplemental materials.
Click to expand...

You both must be thinking of I1734, which is Mesolithic, not Neolithic. Yes, it was originally labeled R1b1a2, and now it's just labeled R1b1a(xR1b1a1a). So it's possibly V88 or pre-V88, and possibly not.
 
Genetiker said:
The early Neolithic Spanish sample I0410 is definitely V88. It's on the Y7777 branch of V88 that's ancestral to the Middle Eastern and African Y7771 branch, among others.
Click to expand...
In this case it can give us a possibility that V88 migrated to Africa with Neolithic Iberian Farmer.
May I ask, where is the biggest diversity of V88 today?
 
Brennos said:
Many thanks... Is there another sample that is R among those from Romania?
Click to expand...

SC2 and OC1 are reported to be R1 and R1b. The data for those samples is unaligned. I could align it, but it takes a very long time, so I'm probably not going to. It's not worth the effort. They're probably V88 or pre-V88, like SC1.
 
LeBrok said:
May I ask, where is the biggest diversity of V88 today?
Click to expand...

Sardinia currently appears to have the most diversity, although that may be due to the extensive sampling that's been done there.

LeBrok said:
In this case it can give us a possibility that V88 migrated to Africa with Neolithic Iberian Farmer.
Click to expand...

Yes, and the spread of the Megalithic culture from Iberia into Northwest Africa is the obvious pontential archeological correlate of the spread of R1b-V88, along with the spread of I2a1a1-M26.
 
The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...
 
there is also the Almagra pottery culture which predates the Cardial Ware neolithic in Andalusia but about which very little is known
however, as the Els Trocs are rich in EEF with some WHG, I put my 2 cents on Cardial Ware or some related folks
the farmers/herders in Northern Africa were more related to the Levant neolithics

TMRCA of Y7777 is way before Cardial ware or any neolithic expansion from SW Asia
 
berun said:
The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...
Click to expand...
There is also a possibility that V88 was also a hunter gatherer in North Africa and could have been "picked up" by expending Levant Farmers around 7-5k BC. In this case V88 had easy enough time to get to SS Africa as farmer/herder, just before Sahara dried up.
 
berun said:
The megalithism in North Africa is from the Bronze Age, maybe related to the BB expansion there also. By then the Sahara would be insurmountable by then for the R1b-V88 cow herders (the cows are European otherwise?). Instead, by the time that the 5000 BC sample found in the Pyrenees (by sure a herder by the altitude and region where he was buried) we have in the Sahara petroglyphs about herders abd cows, it was the Green Sahara, and both Pyrenees and North Africa received a Cardial demic diffusion...
Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks.

I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

This makes me wonder how much R1b-M269 there is in NW Africa.

Your scenario fits the estimates well. Y7771 is estimated to have formed around 5000 BC, which is right in the middle of the most recent Green Sahara period. And its TMRCA estimate of 3400 BC is around the time that the Sahara dried up.
 
@bicicleur, the African V88 subclades have a TMRCA of around 5000 BC, date that coincides with the apparision of herding in the Sahara. You know, as more cars in a city more car crashes, as more people in a place more mutations.
 
Genetiker said:
Interesting, thanks.

I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

This makes me wonder how much R1b-M269 there is in NW Africa.

Your scenario fits the estimates well. Y7771 is estimated to have formed around 5000 BC, which is right in the middle of the most recent Green Sahara period. And its TMRCA estimate of 3400 BC is around the time that the Sahara dried up.
Click to expand...

the Green Sahara started about 9-10 ka and it lasted till 5.9 ka, but it was interrupted for a few centuries by the 8.2 ka climate event
before the 8.2 ka climate event the Green Sahara was full of HG, after the 8.2 ka climate it was full of herders
after 5.9 ka the Nile valley was a refuge which became overcrowded and eventualy ended up in warring tribes and the 5 ka foundation of Egypt when the 1st farao came out as victor of these wars

that is why I believe R1b-V88 entered Africa between 8 and 5.5 ka
 
berun said:
@bicicleur, the African V88 subclades have a TMRCA of around 5000 BC, date that coincides with the apparision of herding in the Sahara. You know, as more cars in a city more car crashes, as more people in a place more mutations.
Click to expand...

I was talking about Y7777 with TMRCA 9.6 ka, which is the branch of the El Trocs sample, we don't know which further subclade
Y7771 has TMRCA 5.4 ka, but apart from the African branch, also some Saudi and Kuwaiti are on this branch, which suggests an even later migration into Africa
maybe Y7771 split up from the Nile valley
 
Genetiker said:
The Y-SNP calls for the Khvalynsk sample I0122 are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. Note that the positive call for the V88-equivalent SNP S5025 is reliable, while the three positive calls for P297-equivalent SNPs are not.

The Y-SNP calls for the Mesolithic sample SC1 from the Iron Gates region are here. He was R1b-V88 or pre-R1b-V88. With a date of 7125–6603 BC, this is now the oldest such sample.



There's no need to posit a special migration to Anatolia for the "founding father of R1b-V88". It's sufficient to simply say that the man in whom V88 originated very likely lived in Europe, and that his descendants would later spread to places outside of Europe, including Africa and the Middle East.
Click to expand...

I never looked at the SNP details, but I saw someone showing V-88 in Ukraine, then I saw this thread.

And I would agree that V-88 looks to have come from the same place as much of the other R1b lines that dispersed during bronze age. I've always wondered why people needed some special place for the origin of V-88, apart from the glut of mesolithic R1b in Europe and the steppe.
 
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