does R1b-V88 originate from the Iron Gate ?

Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.
 

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Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.

as for R1a, R1a1 migrated to Europe but R1a2 might have migrated to SW Asia
all subclades of R1a1 seem European
R1a1b are the combed ware folks
R1a1a1 seems Indo-Europeanised, founding father of both CW and Sintashta

R1b is more complicated, it split up earlier and some of the early clades seem to have arrived in SW Asia, while others arrived in Europe

R2, as you say is pretty straightforward, they arrived in the Zagros Mountains, became herders and spread east and south from there
 
I thought that the megaliths in NW Africa might be from the Bronze Age, but I wasn't sure. Do you know of any online sources that discuss their dates? I assume that Bronze Age here means around 2000 BC.

To answer my own question, the NW African megaliths appear to be from the Neolithic, not the Bronze Age. This page on the Mzora stone circle in Morocco, which is the largest stone ellipse in the world, states:

The site itself is a Neolithic ellipse of 168 surviving stones of the 175 originally believed to have existed. The tallest of these stones is over 5m in height. The ellipse has a major axis of 59.29 metres and a minor axis of 56.18 metres. At the centre of the ring, and quite probably a much later addition, is a large tumulus (the tomb of Antaeus?).

As hinted at by Geoffrey of Monmouth above, Mzora, incredibly, appears to have been constructed either by the same culture that erected the megalithic sites in France, Britain and Ireland or by one that was intimately connected with them. The ellipse is constructed using a Pythagorean right angled triangle of the ratio 12, 35, 37. This same technique was used in the construction of British stone ellipses of which 30 good examples survive including the Sands of Forvie and Daviot rings.

And this page says that the dolmens at Eles, Tunisia, are thought to be from around 2500 BC, which is during the Neolithic, not the Bronze Age.
 
Both R1a and R1b have basal subclades in the Near east, and only from a single point on their respective trees do we see European subclades that would later spread with IE migrations.

If complexity of basal subclades means anything to you, then this means that R1b-P297 and R1a-M17 were the only ones that migrated to Europe during the Mesolithic, posiibly from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the steppes.

Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.

The oldest R1a is from Ukraine 8825-8561 calBCE, and the oldest R1b is from Epigravettian Italy 12230-11830 calBCE (12140±70 BP).

That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.

Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.

R1b-V88 was left behind in the Middle east, same as R1b-L388*, R1b-PH155, R1b-M335, R1a-YP1272, R1a-YP4141.

R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.

The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.

This page shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.

The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.

This page shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.

The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.

We can even say that the entire R2 was left in the Near east, migrating later to India with the Neolithic, this would of course mean that the R* we found in Mal*ta, Siberia for some reason materializes as R in the Near east.

There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.
 
Your comments indicate that you didn't read the thread. The ancient DNA evidence is showing that both R1b-V88 and R1b-P297 arose from R1b-L754 in Europe during the Paleolithic, around 17,000 years ago, somewhere in the area from Italy to Ukraine that was occupied by the Epigravettian culture. There's also no reason to think that R1a originated anywhere but Europe.



That R1a sample, I1819, is labeled only R1a, and not something more derived, which supports a European origin for R1a.

Villabruna is most likely R1b-L754*, which supports a European origin for V88 and P297.



R1b-V88 wasn't "left behind in the Middle east". The Iron Gates sample SC1 and the Spanish sample I0410 are showing that V88 originated in European hunter-gatherers, and that its M18 and Y7777 branches later entered the early European farmer population. Some of those European farmers belonging to the Y7777 branch then migrated to Africa or the Middle East around 5000 BC, where the Y7771 branch originated.

The other R1b and R1a branches that you mention are found in both Europe and the Middle East, so there are no grounds for assuming that they originated in the Middle East.

This page shows R1b-L389(xP297) in samples of European origin from various places, including Belarus, Puerto Rico, Greece, and Italy.

The same page also shows R1b-PH155 and R1b-PH155-M335 in European samples, from Russia, Germany, and Italy.

This page shows R1a-YP1272 in samples from Belarus, the Czech Republic, Italy, and Russia.

The same page also shows R1a-YP4141 in samples with origins in England, Ireland, Scotland, and Italy.



There's no doubt that R2 has early origins in the Middle East, because my analyses showed that it was present Neolithic samples from Iran. Those same analyses showed that, except for one R1b-L389(xP297) sample from Bronze Age Armenia, R1 was absent in the ancient Middle East. That fact combined with the abundance of R1 in Paleolithic and Mesolithic European samples strongly points to a European origin of most if not all branches of R1.

Just a thought with the aim to make order: is it possible this view about origins, i.e. V88 in the Balkans, P297 north-east from it, M269 between Poland and Ukraine, M73 Ukraine?
 
Just a thought with the aim to make order: is it possible this view about origins, i.e. V88 in the Balkans, P297 north-east from it, M269 between Poland and Ukraine, M73 Ukraine?

Yes, V88 probably originated in the Balkans.

P297, M269, and M73 had to have originated east of the Balkans, or they would appear in early farmer samples.

The absence of P297 in the Mesolithic and Neolithic Ukrainian samples, the M73 in the Samara and Latvian hunter-gatherers, and the M269 in the Russian Pit Grave samples all point to a Russian origin of P297, M269, and M73.
 
P297 and M73 - M269 probably too - seem to have originated in the Baltic area and pushed south by the incoming R1a1b comb ceramic tribes
 
For the West Asian and West African subclades I've always said the Iberian Penninsula is the effective V-88 homeland.

And right now it looks like most if not all of modern day R1b lineages originated in Europe and began to disperse during thae Eneolithic.
 
What you do not understand on the behalf of R1b-L389(xP297) is that most basal of this clade is found in the Near East. I myself belong to this clade. All the European (Puerto Rico, Italy) belong to the same subclade of V1636 (V1274). The BA Armenian clade of L389 is non existent anymore (or not found at least). Undoubtfully, this is a Paleolithic Near Eastern haplogroup.

HG00640 R-V1636* A
YF10512 R-Y106006 G
YF12189 R-Y106006 G
V1274: hg 19 7613234 (G>A) is positive not only for Italian Mangino and the Jewish cluster, but also for the Iberian cluster, but not for the NE cluster, thus the Near Eastern cluster separated before from these ones. (from forum molgen)

These are modern samples though and there is little correlation, especially in the West in comparison pre-bronze age samples
 
Weren't there a EEF cardialwares culture sample that carried R1b-V88? Iron Gates had EHG ancestry, but local Iberian WHG seem more Louchbour like (some magdelanian associated "El miron Cluster" admixture). Indeed La Brana man seem to have carried paleolithic Y-DNA associated with EUP folks like Kostenki and Sunghir. But then so did Pinarbasi/Anatolia HG so it could be just a generic Crown West Eurasian left over uniparental markers that got displaced by I-M70. Kale and Chad apparently modelled WHG with ANE, perhaps no mesolithic WHG was not purely proto Villabruna-like at all
 

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