E-m84

[Masta305]

We are pleased to announce a new qualitative sample after completing its development into the BigY700 to its owner:

-Rasoul bin Qasim bin Diwan from the Al-Abiyat clan of the Al-Sahlan tribe - originally from Amara in Iraq and immigrants to Ahwaz.
-No. (IN131962) at FTDNA.
-No. (YF127807) at YFULL Company.

The sample forms a third branch below the new mutation “E-FT156791”, parallel to the previous branches, a branch with Khaled Al-Dharhani from Al-Dhalea from Yemen and a branch with Suleiman from Hama from Syria in the ceiling of E-M84, and the mutation becomes the ceiling and the specific branch is represented by three genetic branches from Yemen, Iraq and Syria. The importance of this branch lies in the fact that it divided E-M84 into two branches, where it meets the other branch that contains all the biology results in E-M84, which is E-Y5413, 9100 years old.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1766695182060130720

 

[kingdavid]

We are pleased to announce a new qualitative sample after completing its development into the BigY700 to its owner:

-Rasoul bin Qasim bin Diwan from the Al-Abiyat clan of the Al-Sahlan tribe - originally from Amara in Iraq and immigrants to Ahwaz.
-No. (IN131962) at FTDNA.
-No. (YF127807) at YFULL Company.

The sample forms a third branch below the new mutation “E-FT156791”, parallel to the previous branches, a branch with Khaled Al-Dharhani from Al-Dhalea from Yemen and a branch with Suleiman from Hama from Syria in the ceiling of E-M84, and the mutation becomes the ceiling and the specific branch is represented by three genetic branches from Yemen, Iraq and Syria. The importance of this branch lies in the fact that it divided E-M84 into two branches, where it meets the other branch that contains all the biology results in E-M84, which is E-Y5413, 9100 years old.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1766695182060130720

thanks for sharing
very nice find
really at the roof of e-m84 tree structure
an earlier split inside of it
and e-ft156791 is parallel branch to e-s11835

p.s
i believe it originated in arabia or very close to that territory :
because the syrian and iraqi under it could be descendants of arab migration from saudi arabia
there is a saudi arabian ftdna tester who didnt upload his sample to yfull
you can see him here
below at the ftdna y tree
but generally speaking it all fits a middle eastern/southwest asian origin of e-m84
if we also remember the BAJ022 -PPNB remain from modern day south jordan

 

[Hawk]

The Natufians were remarkable human group, one of the first human people which we attribute a lot of "world's first" labels.

A practical modern world example is the domestication of cats, they were the first to domesticate cats. Sedentary lifestyle, first agricultural contributions toward the most important human revolution: Agricultural revolution. Splinter groups or related groups in Mesolithic Egypt is where we find the world's first massive organized warfare. It's not too far to say that Natufians were the first people to shape our world as it is today. I think that a major contributor on the fall of Natufian Culture was climate change. It's called younger drias or something.

I hope we find some E-M78 or even E-L618 in the future among Natufians. But so far it looks like they were from other E-M35 clades like E-M84.

 

[kingdavid]

The Natufians were remarkable human group, one of the first human people which we attribute a lot of "world's first" labels.

A practical modern world example is the domestication of cats, they were the first to domesticate cats. Sedentary lifestyle, first agricultural contributions toward the most important human revolution: Agricultural revolution. Splinter groups or related groups in Mesolithic Egypt is where we find the world's first massive organized warfare. It's not too far to say that Natufians were the first people to shape our world as it is today. I think that a major contributor on the fall of Natufian Culture was climate change. It's called younger drias or something.

I hope we find some E-M78 or even E-L618 in the future among Natufians. But so far it looks like they were from other E-M35 clades like E-M84.

yes a very upstream branch of e-m84 called e-z830
at this paper : southern arc paper

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

one of the natufian individuals named I1072 was analysed in higher coverage
theytree site analysed it
so we had a chance to see where he fall farther than e-z830 level

I1072_d
1) had a positive call at the e-pf1962 level
2)1 positive call and 1 negetive call on e-m123 level
3)1 negetive call on e-m34 and 1 ngetive call at e-ft20896
4) many negetive calls on the e-v1515 level
so he was e-z830>pf1962 for sure

p.s
i assume in higher coverage the rest of the natufian remains would be also e-z830>pf1962

 

[Masta305]

New ancient remains in E-m84 negative to all other branches

 

[kingdavid]

Masta305 it could have been great finding
but he is not really negetive for all the branches
according to ftdna discover tool he is under the successful e-m84>pf6751 branch

 

[Masta305]

Masta305 it could have been great finding
but he is not really negetive for all the branches
according to ftdna discover tool he is under the successful e-m84>pf6751 branch
View attachment 16362

Thanks king David
I will double check with familytree next time.

 

[kingdavid]

Thanks king David
I will double check with familytree next time.

are you aware of this iron age anatolian he is under e-m84>y5435
he is not far from you nice

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

Yes and E-1515 is from E-z830 so that's ancient back to Africa migration from middle east . Haplogroup E returned back home finally in east africa after leaving africa 30k years ago under mutation E-m35 in levant region .

Link to the Eritrea study scientific article

Haplotype data and forensic evaluation of 23 Y-STR and 12 X-STR loci in eight ethnic groups from Eritrea - PMC

Eritrea is a multi-ethnic country of over 3 million of people consisting of different ethnic groups, having each its own language and cultural tradition. Due to the lack of population genetic data for markers of forensic interest, in this study, we ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Looks the african origin has become outdated according to this study.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.27.596017v1

Natufian/Kebaran people invaded Africa and brought both E-M35 & E-M2 from the Levant as that is what this study says.

 

[Masta305]

Rumours of new ancient remains in Yemen


I quote him
"
I received information from recent genetic studies revealing ancient human remains in Yemen , dating back between 5,000 and 11,000 years! Genetic lineages such as T-M70, E-M84, J1-M267, and others were identified, but some remains were unable to be identified. The study covered the regions of Al Mahrah, Shibam, Saada, Socotra, the Empty Quarter, and other areas."

/alrakanabdul/status/1932430181911662967?s=46

 

[Masta305]

 

[kingdavid]

View attachment 18405

Thanks fascinating
if this leak and dates are true
we should expect future ancient dna results from yemen
Than i am amazed i never knew e-m123 or its derived branch e-m84 is that old in yemen
I Always thought it came from the north (levant region) during early bronze age .


p.s
The e-m84 cases should fall on
E-y5435 , e-pf6751 downstreams
But it also possible could fall on some rare branch of e-m84 like the ba'ja remain from neolithic south jordan
The e-m123 cases could fall on
e-m123>ft20896
Or they are not in best coverage so stoped at the e-m123 level

 

[Masta305]

Thanks fascinating
if this leak and dates are true
we should expect future ancient dna results from yemen
Than i am amazed i never knew e-m123 or its derived branch e-m84 is that old in yemen
I Always thought it came from the north (levant region) during early bronze age .


p.s
The e-m84 cases should fall on
E-y5435 , e-pf6751 downstreams
But it also possible could fall on some rare branch of e-m84 like the ba'ja remain from neolithic south jordan
The e-m123 cases could fall on
e-m123>ft20896
Or they are not in best coverage so stoped at the e-m123 level

Autosomal results will be interesting to see if j1 is gonna be natufian admixed or only Iran Neolithic

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

Rumours of new ancient remains in Yemen


I quote him
"
I received information from recent genetic studies revealing ancient human remains in Yemen , dating back between 5,000 and 11,000 years! Genetic lineages such as T-M70, E-M84, J1-M267, and others were identified, but some remains were unable to be identified. The study covered the regions of Al Mahrah, Shibam, Saada, Socotra, the Empty Quarter, and other areas."

/alrakanabdul/status/1932430181911662967?s=46

View attachment 18405

A friend on Twitter/X who is an insider in Arab genetic discussions told me that most of these are fake and are not accurate because they were not peer-reviewed yet and are just being rushed to the public. Even by just looking at they don't make any sense. How did J1 and J2 appear in Early Neolithic Arabia without leaving any remains in the Levant at the same time period?

All reputable sources like Ted Kandell agrees that haplogroup J for both subclades came from the Southern Caucasus during the Bronze Age to the Levant and then to Arabia. Even haplogroup E-M123 and E-V22 (as I can see both haplogroups in the image) must have came from the Levant but much earlier as the oldest E-M123 (or more specifically E-M84 in terms of the context of this post) is from Ba'ja rockshelter from the PPNB Culture in Neolithic Jordan, as mentioned by kingdavid before.

We see the same case with E-V22 as it has its ancestral clade of E-Z1919 among the Neolithic (PPNB) remains in Jordan but at the Ayn Ghazal site. The oldest E-V22 by itself is in a Bronze Age Canaanite from the city of Sidon in Lebanon aged at 1700 BC.

With that out of the way, we also have to address that Peninsular Arabs derive most of their admixture not just from Neolithic Levantines, but also Bronze Age Levantines as per the study by Agranat-Tamir et. al a couple years ago.

If they can answer and explain all of my arguments on how none of these leaked samples make sense then I will change my views but for now I have a strong doubt in all of this new information.

 

[kingdavid]

A friend on Twitter/X who is an insider in Arab genetic discussions told me that most of these are fake and are not accurate because they were not peer-reviewed yet and are just being rushed to the public. Even by just looking at they don't make any sense. How did J1 and J2 appear in Early Neolithic Arabia without leaving any remains in the Levant at the same time period?

All reputable sources like Ted Kandell agrees that haplogroup J for both subclades came from the Southern Caucasus during the Bronze Age to the Levant and then to Arabia. Even haplogroup E-M123 and E-V22 (as I can see both haplogroups in the image) must have came from the Levant but much earlier as the oldest E-M123 (or more specifically E-M84 in terms of the context of this post) is from Ba'ja rockshelter from the PPNB Culture in Neolithic Jordan, as mentioned by kingdavid before.

We see the same case with E-V22 as it has its ancestral clade of E-Z1919 among the Neolithic (PPNB) remains in Jordan but at the Ayn Ghazal site. The oldest E-V22 by itself is in a Bronze Age Canaanite from the city of Sidon in Lebanon aged at 1700 BC.

With that out of the way, we also have to address that Peninsular Arabs derive most of their admixture not just from Neolithic Levantines, but also Bronze Age Levantines as per the study by Agranat-Tamir et. al a couple years ago.

If they can answer and explain all of my arguments on how none of these leaked samples make sense then I will change my views but for now I have a strong doubt in all of this new information.

i hope some of them are real
will be interesting to see ancient dna from arabia
now thanks to technology researchers can take dna from these sunny areas ( like yemen and generally speaking arabia)
thanks to the petrous bone analysis

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

i hope some of them are real
will be interesting to see ancient dna from arabia
now thanks to technology researchers can take dna from these sunny areas ( like yemen and generally speaking arabia)
thanks to the petrous bone analysis

I will say that there have been confirmed DNA tested ancient remains from the Northern Hejaz region of Saudi Arabia from the Nabataean Civilization. They are mostly similar to modern Levantines in both admixture and haplogroup dispersal according to the leaked research paper, but I will wait until everything has been officially released before jumping to conclusions.

 

[kingdavid]

I will say that there have been confirmed DNA tested ancient remains from the Northern Hejaz region of Saudi Arabia from the Nabataean Civilization. They are mostly similar to modern Levantines in both admixture and haplogroup dispersal according to the leaked research paper, but I will wait until everything has been officially released before jumping to conclusions.

thanks
i also heard about it
expected to be some e1b1b1 among the remains
but according to twitter they are e-m78>v22 not e-m123

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

thanks
i also heard about it
expected to be some e1b1b1 among the remains
but according to twitter they are e-m78>v22 not e-m123

Really? Then this just continues to prove that E-V22 is just as Semitic as E-M123 is.

If I remember correctly, it is the second largest branch of E1b1b after E-M123 among Jewish men.

 

[kingdavid]

Really? Then this just continues to prove that E-V22 is just as Semitic as E-M123 is.

If I remember correctly, it is the second largest branch of E1b1b after E-M123 among Jewish men.

indeed
yes and it exists among the different jewish communities
i truly believe it was present in the tribe of Judah
but i don't want to get to religious stuff since the tension is very high nowadays

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

indeed
yes and it exists among the different jewish communities
i truly believe it was present in the tribe of Judah
but i don't want to get to religious stuff since the tension is very high nowadays

I understand,
thank you for confirming its presence.