E-V13 clades spreading with the Vekerzug Scythians

[Aspurg]

In La Tene paper one V13 sample, I14465, is of the Vekerzug culture. By the traits of this burial, all indications are he is by far the most Scythian of any Vekerzug samples.

His, and origin of few other (mostly female) samples judging by closest analogies of that material is most likely the NW Romania, the Sanislău has close parallels, including some indications of certain urns (probably hinting at Eastern Gava origins).

In this area occurred the formation of a Scythian culture per some associated with the Agathyrsi or more precisely the Ciumbrud group related to the Vekerzug. Vekerzug samples are not really typical Steppe Scythian, so it seems that profile wasn't that present among them. We know from earlier studies only minority of Scythians had a typical Steppe profile. Yet it does count culturally as Scythian.

And actually in Transylvania these people represented the dominant political factor until the arrival of the Celts, only later did the Dacians establish their domination of the region by toppling the Celts, and including in their ranks the old Agathyrsi.

This is why archeologically Dacians were different as opposed to Getae, groups from modern day Wallachia and Moldavia. These too had some Scythian influences of different kind.

It seems plenty or most of those Scythians were of proto-Daco-Thracian origin anyway.

Vekerzug had mixed elements but that V13 sample was most Scythian of any of those samples. He and two other female samples show alot more South-Eastern autosomal profile, especially the females. It seems there really were some EEF (+Anatolian) heavy people in Carpathians as indicated by the low steppe J2a EBA and LBA finds in NE Hungary in the Pannonian study.

As around the Balkans appeared some Scythian influence, for example in Atenica close parallels to the very Vekerzug site of Chotin. Even in Illyrian Drilon-Romaja culture appeared this influence in Romaja. I used to think these were usual R-Z93's that have died out, but now I wonder whether some V13 Balkan clades stem from these people.

I actually long ago mentioned maybe Albanian clade of Z17107>BY4465 as maybe being related to Atenica. Z17107 is an early Iron Age clade and it is very diverse in Carpathians.

Also another Z17107 clade, E-A19247, has one Albanian with NE Hungarian cluster, sharing one SNP, TMRCA estimated 2400 ybp, but just sharing 1 SNP.

Z17107 has a clade E-Y196687 made up of an Englishman and Russian from Rostov.

And ofc my own subclade of Z17107>A24070 is very strong in Transylvania. Other than East Hungarian, there are actually Transylvanian Romanians closely related to both me and the Bosnian clade. Plus we have a N.Hungarian/W.Ukrainian Z17107 EIA clade.

Ofc plenty of other clades as candidates, but Vekerzug find makes me believe some V13 arrived to the Balkans this way.

This V13 Vekerzug sample is just V13 for now, I don't think anyone found anything below.

Other Vekerzug samples do not really show strong Scythian connection, for example the R-L2 samples or the R-PF7592. Most likely some locals.

 

[Hawk]

I checked his autosomal and based on one model he really looks like Thracian/Scythian admixed.

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TH="class: cms_table_singleheader, colspan: 2, align: center"]Target: E-V13:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I14465
Distance: 3.4356% / 0.03435601
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]40.6[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]22.8[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]West_Asian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]19.0[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Baltic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.6[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Bell_Beaker[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

But a lot of E-V13 samples are plotting all over the place, likewise this sample in La Tene:

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TH="class: cms_table_singleheader, colspan: 2, align: center"]Target: E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
Distance: 2.5471% / 0.02547086
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]70.0[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Aegean_Neolithic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]19.6[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.6[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Baltic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.8[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

To me, it looks like he is a Southern Balkanite migrant.

 

[Morina]

Romanian language developed in the Southern Balkans even today you can find Romanian toponyms there such as 'Surdul' near Kosovo

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdul

'Surdul' appearently in Romanian means 'Deaf' similar to Albanian 'Shurdhu' . Anyway, it is a Romanian name / toponym. Other toponyms can also be observed across the
Western/Central Balkans of Vlachs / Eastern Latin speakers.

You also have names with 'Katun' which means village in the Albanian language and in Aromanian, in Romanian 'Catun' , also 'Sat' is used 'Fshat' in Albanian.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katun_(commune)

Katun (Vranje), a village in Vranje Municipality, Serbia
Katun (Aleksinac), a village in Aleksinac Municipality, Serbia
Gornji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
Donji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
Katun, Pljevlja, a village in Pljevlja Municipality, Montenegro
Katun, Poreč

---

, a village in Poreč Municipality, Croatia
Katun Božički, a summer hamlet in the Komovi Mountains, Andrijevica, Montenegro
Katun nahiya [sh], a small province (nahiya) during the Ottoman rule in Montenegro

This form of association of people is a consequence of the absence of strong central government, and is observed in documents from the second half of the 14th and 15th centuries. It is often associated with a living style of "Vlachs" (that is, Eastern Romance people) in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia,

 

[Aspurg]

I checked his autosomal and based on one model he really looks like Thracian/Scythian admixed.


To me, it looks like he is a Southern Balkanite migrant.

Very unlikely for these people. Its just Southern Balkan-like autosomal profile also existed in Carparthians. The Pannonian study has 4000 and 3000 year old J2a with very low Steppe in NE Hungary. Possibly Ottomany culture (older find). And this is likely related with the expansion of Glina-Schneckenberg culture, this culture was actually of Anatolian origin and its cousin culture from Bulgaria (which was tested in Southern Arch) also showed J2a, notwithstanding local EEF remnants.

This I believe caused the Southern Thracian IA profile, mixing with these people.

This Verkezug culture caused lot of destruction and turmoil in Central Europe. Areas up to Slovakia and Czech republic. In this area there are also some V13 clades which are likely locals there for some time, I think Verkezug expansion did carry various V13 to the West, may have been more responsible for V13 dispersion than some earlier "Thraco-Cimmerian" phenomenon.

 

[Hawk]

Very unlikely for these people. Its just Southern Balkan-like autosomal profile also existed in Carparthians. The Pannonian study has 4000 and 3000 year old J2a with very low Steppe in NE Hungary. Possibly Ottomany culture (older find). And this is likely related with the expansion of Glina-Schneckenberg culture, this culture was actually of Anatolian origin and its cousin culture from Bulgaria (which was tested in Southern Arch) also showed J2a, notwithstanding local EEF remnants.

This I believe caused the Southern Thracian IA profile, mixing with these people.

This Verkezug culture caused lot of destruction and turmoil in Central Europe. Areas up to Slovakia and Czech republic. In this area there are also some V13 clades which are likely locals there for some time, I think Verkezug expansion did carry various V13 to the West, may have been more responsible for V13 dispersion than some earlier "Thraco-Cimmerian" phenomenon.

You missunderstood me i think, i totally agree that E-V13 initial spread was somewhere around Carpathian Basin during Middle Bronze Age.

But that E-V13 outlier from La Tene is not Thracian or Illyrian, if he was native Pannonian or coming from Transylvania he would have scored Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic or East_European_Neolithic but he scores Aegean, we are talking about Late Iron Age. So, i think he was some sort of Greek, Southern Thracian, Macedonian or related, IDK.

As a reference, check this model i made: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page13?p=638197&viewfull=1#post638197

 

[Aspurg]

So why would all the EV-13 of been absorbed by Romanians from their arrival in their Southern Balkan homelands ? It seems to me more plausible that some of these EV-13 have also a West/Central Balkan origin.

Indeed, lots of Romanian V13 is of Balkan origin. But my clade is something different, Romanians have distant relatives in Hungarians and in the Balkan our clade does not occur on places associated with Vlachs, rather my own subbranch on Turkic-related places..

Actually Romanians of my branch have highest TMRCA of Romanian V13 branches thus far, plus they are from the same region. Most other Romanian branches have low TMRCA.

So not just for some, but many Romanian V13 is of southern origin, nobody knows that better than me. I would say so far half of V13 and most of their J2b. But of course there are local V13 branches just as there are various other local branches. But there is over 30 Romanian clusters that I know of, of different haplogroups that seems of recent Balkan origin.

It also proof Vlachs had low I2a when they migrated to the North, say 12th century. Because only for minority of Romanian Slavic lineages is Balkan origin likely.

For determining local V13 clades in Romanians more important are links with some other peoples like Hungarians, West Ukrainians etc than anything else.

But anyway not the topic for that, but I do know of actually 30 Romanian V13 clades, much of that I know thanks to other peoples they match, because Romanians dont test much for Y-DNA.

Actually there appeared some Romanian NGS Nebula results in recent times, and several of them have been pulled off because they didn't pay the YFull fee.

 

[Aspurg]

You missunderstood me i think, i totally agree that E-V13 initial spread was somewhere around Carpathian Basin during Middle Bronze Age.

But that E-V13 outlier from La Tene is not Thracian or Illyrian, if he was native Pannonian or coming from Transylvania he would have scored Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic or East_European_Neolithic but he scores Aegean, we are talking about Late Iron Age. So, i think he was some sort of Greek, Southern Thracian, Macedonian or related, IDK.

As a reference, check this model i made: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page13?p=638197&viewfull=1#post638197

Yes but there was actually likely Aegian autosomal profile in Carpathians? Why? Because of Glina-Schneckenberg which was likely J2a and expanded to modern day Romania from the South - Bulgaria, and even more to the Southeast before. So seeing these high Aegian scores in some of these samples does not mean they actually were people from that far South in any recent times.

As I ve said, judging by some of these very low Steppe J2a EBA/MBA and LBA samples from East Hungary including one J2a Urnfield sample with very low Steppe, this sort of profile looks to have been very widespread in the region since the EBA/MBA.

 

[Hawk]

Yes but there was actually likely Aegian autosomal profile in Carpathians? Why? Because of Glina-Schneckenberg which was likely J2a and expanded to modern day Romania from the South - Bulgaria, and even more to the Southeast before. So seeing these high Aegian scores in some of these samples does not mean they actually were people from that far South in any recent times.

As I ve said, judging by some of these very low Steppe J2a EBA/MBA and LBA samples from East Hungary including one J2a Urnfield sample with very low Steppe, this sort of profile looks to have been very widespread in the region since the EBA/MBA.

Well i doubt it, he looks like an outlier and wouldn't expect so much of Aegean autosomal up there and isolated for so long. And J2a was probably just a lone wolf, wouldn't expect to have any significant presence around there.

 

[Riverman]

In La Tene paper one V13 sample, I14465, is of the Vekerzug culture. By the traits of this burial, all indications are he is by far the most Scythian of any Vekerzug samples.

His, and origin of few other (mostly female) samples judging by closest analogies of that material is most likely the NW Romania, the Sanislău has close parallels, including some indications of certain urns (probably hinting at Eastern Gava origins).

In this area occurred the formation of a Scythian culture per some associated with the Agathyrsi or more precisely the Ciumbrud group related to the Vekerzug. Vekerzug samples are not really typical Steppe Scythian, so it seems that profile wasn't that present among them. We know from earlier studies only minority of Scythians had a typical Steppe profile. Yet it does count culturally as Scythian.

And actually in Transylvania these people represented the dominant political factor until the arrival of the Celts, only later did the Dacians establish their domination of the region by toppling the Celts, and including in their ranks the old Agathyrsi.

This is why archeologically Dacians were different as opposed to Getae, groups from modern day Wallachia and Moldavia. These too had some Scythian influences of different kind.

It seems plenty or most of those Scythians were of proto-Daco-Thracian origin anyway.

Vekerzug had mixed elements but that V13 sample was most Scythian of any of those samples. He and two other female samples show alot more South-Eastern autosomal profile, especially the females. It seems there really were some EEF (+Anatolian) heavy people in Carpathians as indicated by the low steppe J2a EBA and LBA finds in NE Hungary in the Pannonian study.

As around the Balkans appeared some Scythian influence, for example in Atenica close parallels to the very Vekerzug site of Chotin. Even in Illyrian Drilon-Romaja culture appeared this influence in Romaja. I used to think these were usual R-Z93's that have died out, but now I wonder whether some V13 Balkan clades stem from these people.

I actually long ago mentioned maybe Albanian clade of Z17107>BY4465 as maybe being related to Atenica. Z17107 is an early Iron Age clade and it is very diverse in Carpathians.

Also another Z17107 clade, E-A19247, has one Albanian with NE Hungarian cluster, sharing one SNP, TMRCA estimated 2400 ybp, but just sharing 1 SNP.

Z17107 has a clade E-Y196687 made up of an Englishman and Russian from Rostov.

And ofc my own subclade of Z17107>A24070 is very strong in Transylvania. Other than East Hungarian, there are actually Transylvanian Romanians closely related to both me and the Bosnian clade. Plus we have a N.Hungarian/W.Ukrainian Z17107 EIA clade.

Ofc plenty of other clades as candidates, but Vekerzug find makes me believe some V13 arrived to the Balkans this way.

This V13 Vekerzug sample is just V13 for now, I don't think anyone found anything below.

Other Vekerzug samples do not really show strong Scythian connection, for example the R-L2 samples or the R-PF7592. Most likely some locals.

The site it was found is interesting too, because it was the sphere of influence from Channelled Ware people in the previous periods, so there is actualy more than one scenario how G?va/Thracian related E-V13 could have been there among locals and later Scythianised people. But going by the autosomals, both the Thraco-Cimmerians and "Scythians" being overwhelmingly derived from local Carpatho-Pannonian people, that's a given and was already suggested by the archaeological material, like the pottery styles and some local adaptations to the Scythian gear.

Very unlikely for these people. Its just Southern Balkan-like autosomal profile also existed in Carparthians. The Pannonian study has 4000 and 3000 year old J2a with very low Steppe in NE Hungary. Possibly Ottomany culture (older find). And this is likely related with the expansion of Glina-Schneckenberg culture, this culture was actually of Anatolian origin and its cousin culture from Bulgaria (which was tested in Southern Arch) also showed J2a, notwithstanding local EEF remnants.

This I believe caused the Southern Thracian IA profile, mixing with these people.

This Verkezug culture caused lot of destruction and turmoil in Central Europe. Areas up to Slovakia and Czech republic. In this area there are also some V13 clades which are likely locals there for some time, I think Verkezug expansion did carry various V13 to the West, may have been more responsible for V13 dispersion than some earlier "Thraco-Cimmerian" phenomenon.

Don't forget BR2, the Kyjatice J2a with a more Central European profile. Its a good option it spread with Otomani into Pannonia, being later pushed Eastward, towards the Upper Tisza, and being part of the Western group of the Channelled Ware source, Kyjatice. Otomani itself, 2-3 stages before, was already a more complex fusion.

By the way, is the Pannonian study out, did I miss something?

 

[Hawk]

Some Thracian tomb paintings from Aleksandrovo, Southern Thracians. Thracian horseriders.

 

[Hawk]

I am wondering regarding some E-V13 Middle Eastern clades, whether they were there when Babylonians allied with Scythians and Cimmerians against Assyrian Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nineveh_(612_BC)

Could be that some warriors settled down afterwards.

 

[Aspurg]

Well i doubt it, he looks like an outlier and wouldn't expect so much of Aegean autosomal up there and isolated for so long. And J2a was probably just a lone wolf, wouldn't expect to have any significant presence around there.

No, results already deny that J2a was a lone wolf. I've noticed some J2a clades in Carpathians that have no matches anywhere.

That Pannonian study has two J2a, 4000 years old, and 3000 year old J2a's with low Steppe shows this profile existed in the E.Hungary and more to the East. Ofc earlier Kyjatice Urnfielder is also there.

Also Glina culture is linked with the EBA Bulgarian culture where J2a was found.
I used to tie this culture maybe with V13 via some Cetina links. But this culture were Eastern Balkan Aegean migrants across the Danube.

Actually J2b might fit into this culture too, if not for all these J2a finds. Because Glina were Anatolians who reached the Carpathians.

This "Aegean" like autosomal influence in these samples is just an indication they came from the East of Tisza river where that sort of profile was rampant.

 

[Aspurg]

The site it was found is interesting too, because it was the sphere of influence from Channelled Ware people in the previous periods, so there is actualy more than one scenario how G�va/Thracian related E-V13 could have been there among locals and later Scythianised people. But going by the autosomals, both the Thraco-Cimmerians and "Scythians" being overwhelmingly derived from local Carpatho-Pannonian people, that's a given and was already suggested by the archaeological material, like the pottery styles and some local adaptations to the Scythian gear.

In this instance it seems actually it may well be that most or the bulk of Westwards V13 expansion was due to the Scythians as I will elaborate. I wouldn't really use the term "Scythians", in the same manner one shouldn't call Late Antiquity Alans "Alans". There was definitely a strong Scythian polity in Carpatho-Pannonian area that dominated prior to the Celtic arrival.

Don't forget BR2, the Kyjatice J2a with a more Central European profile. Its a good option it spread with Otomani into Pannonia, being later pushed Eastward, towards the Upper Tisza, and being part of the Western group of the Channelled Ware source, Kyjatice. Otomani itself, 2-3 stages before, was already a more complex fusion.

By the way, is the Pannonian study out, did I miss something?

Nope it is not out still.

Kyjatice J2a has a typical Urnfelder profile, that is typical of most Urnfelders, with higher WHG. This profile is it seems totally foreign for V13 though.

This is one reason why E-V13 has absolutely nothing to do with the Urnfelders that made incursion into the Illyrian lands. These already are proven to be dominantly R1b. And that any more Western V13 seems either EIA Thraco-Cimmerian or MIA Western Scythian related.

he belongs to the J-Y17946 branch
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y11200/

There is a new Romanian sample upstream that seems to be an ethnic Romanian. Romanian sample downstream YF08205 is I believe ethnic German from Romania. But with Albanian sample there it seems apparent this J2a clade has a long presence in the area. And it looks like a good fit for Glina III expansion.

Even in the Chanelled Ware spectrum, I don't think Western part has any meaningful V13 connection. For the Eastern part the opposite..

So for that reason I am skeptical towards some strong Westward LBA V13 movement, maybe some. These IA movements on the other hand were strong and they now have proven V13 involvement. They also came later, later migrations have more chances of leaving lasting imprint.

 

[Hawk]

No, results already deny that J2a was a lone wolf. I've noticed some J2a clades in Carpathians that have no matches anywhere.

That Pannonian study has two J2a, 4000 years old, and 3000 year old J2a's with low Steppe shows this profile existed in the E.Hungary and more to the East. Ofc earlier Kyjatice Urnfielder is also there.

Also Glina culture is linked with the EBA Bulgarian culture where J2a was found.
I used to tie this culture maybe with V13 via some Cetina links. But this culture were Eastern Balkan Aegean migrants across the Danube.

Actually J2b might fit into this culture too, if not for all these J2a finds. Because Glina were Anatolians who reached the Carpathians.

This "Aegean" like autosomal influence in these samples is just an indication they came from the East of Tisza river where that sort of profile was rampant.

You might be right but i find it hard to believe that sample was E-V13 and didn't receive any local EEF/Steppe admixture unless the fact he was a very recent Southern Balkanite merchant of some sort.

 

[Aspurg]

So...

More news.

1. That I18832 sample is a foreigner indeed among other La Tene samples from that site. BUT he can be well modelled with a combination of a Southern (G2a) East Pannonian Scythian DA198 and Babadag Thraco-Cimmerian MJ12.

And his MtDNA is U5a1b, ultra Steppe mtdna, Iranian mtdna, and also mtdna of one Scythian sample from Ukraine. Most samples there do not carry Scythian mtDNA. Only another sample has Steppe U2e1a1, bu that hg is not as Scythian.

So his auDNA profile says he comes from the East, his MtDNA is Steppe Scythian. I would say this sample does descend from those East Pannonian Scythians. Maybe he joined them after Celts established their dominance, or even maybe he was captured initially or something like that. He is foreign.

2. I18527 La Tene sample has a usual profile for that site, except he has around 10 % of Steppe Scythian admixture. Most have 0, one has around 5 %.

And very interestingly, although that LIA site was La Tene, just 1 km away there is an earlier Vekerzug site. He could be descendant of them, and I think he is due to V13 Vekerzug and this small Steppe admixture.

About Vekerzug, V13 sample is mostly mix of local Urnfield and this eastern profile. But there are other samples with real Steppe Scythian admixture. Most are female. One R-L2 has such influence. Other L2 and other R-L51 do not have any though, and Steppe W mtdna of this L2 might be the source of this.

Regarding V13 sample it has strong Scythian influence in the inventory, as do two female samples of very Southern-Eastern profiles so IMO this is clearly indicative this more DA198 and Mj12 related profile did arrive there with the Scythians.

These Scythians in broader terms are the historical Agathyrsi. Who used to be the political factor in the time of Herodotus when Dacians didn't even have their own political entity (they were under the Agathyrsi). Their focal point is Transylvania. I suppose as this Scythian wave began in Eastern Ukraine, in their stage prior to crossing the Carpathians, they did encounter the Goligrady remnants (and per some ended their culture), so they probably picked up there some V13 clades.

Only this Czech V13 sample, I cannot find anything unusual about it. But for 3 out of 4 V13 La Tene paper samples, Western Scythian connection seems quite clear.

 

[Aspurg]

You might be right but i find it hard to believe that sample was E-V13 and didn't receive any local EEF/Steppe admixture unless the fact he was a very recent Southern Balkanite merchant of some sort.

Those V13 samples were not merchants. Scythians didn't care about such people. He was a warrior, especially this very Southeastern La Tene sample was armed with spear, knifes, sword.. And btw as I explained in my previous post DA198 Southern Scythian and MJ12 work well for them.

J2a EBA and LBA samples indicate there was some strong Aegean auDNA in Carpathians. Probably related to Glina III-Schneckenberg and some cultures that followed it (possibly Ottomani, Wietenberg).

 

[Riverman]

So for that reason I am skeptical towards some strong Westward LBA V13 movement, maybe some. These IA movements on the other hand were strong and they now have proven V13 involvement. They also came later, later migrations have more chances of leaving lasting imprint.

If E-V13 expanded from the Upper Tisza area with G?va, which would the observable phylogeny the best, it most certainly reached more Western areas already in the LBA, with Urnfield movements. The Urnfield connection is obvious, but the core provinces of G?va were largely unaffected by more significant Urnfield movements from the West. They pushed from East of the Tisza, from the Great Hungarian plain West and influenced, at least with small groups and individuals, far beyond that.
Of course, there is the possibility that most of the E-V13 spread started more South and/or East, but then the modern distribution and phylogeny is more difficult to explain. It should start later, being more Southern concentrated, what it doesn't to be. But its possible of course.

The interplay of more Western/North Western Tumulus culture and Urnfield groups with Kyjatice-G?va was very complex and doesn't look straight. I think its possible that there was quite some variation within the more Western provinces and outliers all around. But the bulk of G?va is not from it but from Pannonian EBA-MBA groups with a high proportion of Neolithic plus Epi-Corded influence, rather minor BB-related Western ancestry.

Its such a pity we probably never will get proper Fr?g elite and warrior samples, because I would bet they got E-V13 too, because that area being influenced multiple times from the Channelled Ware related groups: Kyjatice-G?va influence, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-early Hallstatt contacts. The archaeological context is pretty clear.

@Aspurg: What do you think about the pockets of E-V13 in Northern Italy, like Liguria, some areas of Lombardy and Switzerland, like the very West and very East (St. Gallen) interestingly. I still think this could be related to LBA to Hallstatt movements into the Alpine zone.

 

[Aspurg]

The data about the Y haplogroups that you see published by FTDNA and YFull for Romania and Rep. Moldova, are very far from those from scientific studies because more than 3/4 are not of Romanians but of other populations of different ethnicity, mainly Jews. So if you rely on them you will come to erroneous conclusions.

When I mention Romanians, I mean only ethnically Romanian samples whose relatives are not Germans and Jews...

It is not published by FTDNA but their project there.

I can list you ethnic Romanian V13 who did NGS/BigY:
1. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y160670/

2. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4455/
Used to be Romanian sharing BY4455 with these Serbs. Both of these clades are under Albanian BY4465 so should be Southern, though the Ukrainian (or Russian from Ukkraine) Y160670 sample is interesting.

3. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y186952/

There used to be a Romanian E-Y186952* missing, pulled off due to not paying the fee. He should be of local origin. First member of this clade around Balkans.

4. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5610/
Romanian with Ruthenian and now a North Macedonian. Macedonian has more SNP's so TMRCA jumped unrealistically, as its not realistic to have 5 SNP's being 1500 years old.

Also Hungarian with the surname Ratz (should mean Serb) is related more closely to this Ruthenian, and one anonymous Romanian too. There is one Albanian also here, and plus Macedonian Miyak tested at Serbain project (unless he is this Macedonian). Probably southern origin.

5. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/

One Romanian is PH2180* at FTDNA. This clade is ultra Albanian too, though Romanian is not close I think 1300 ybp, Southern origin is likely.

6. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909/

This is the Scythoslav from Moldova. Likely a local clade.

7. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT76098/

But below him there used to be a Romanian who was pulled off, due to not paying again I guess, sharing TMRCA of 1150 ybp with him. I think you used to mention "Greek" origin for him. That is very unrealistic for the Greek too. Why, there is a Bulgarian close to him, and apparently an Aromanian. So most likely this is a Vlach clade, and one present in both Romanians and Aromanians (and that is not something very common).

8. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S24513/

Romanian at FTDNA from N. Romanian Moldova shares I think 1 SNP with the Irish, and few more with a Western Ukrainian not so far from him. So it should be a local clade.


So 8 BigY/NGS ethnic Romanian/Moldovan V13 results thus far. And this is V13 that was surely the prime hg of the Dacians... This is just a random sample.. I know a number of other clades too.

Personally I find it unlikely that the Latin language would not survive among very strong Roman Balkan cities such as Sirmium (one of four capitals of the Roman empire in the late 3rd century), Viminacium, Singidunum etc. and would be preserved by the 160 year long occupation of Dacia by the Romans. Actually Romanians are losing out on this, as they could claim basically good part of Balkan Rome.

It seems Dacians were also bit squeezed by the Romans like the Pannonian-Dalmatians who practically died out. I think there are more Dacians just because the Romans didn't conquer the whole Dacia and there remained Free Dacian groups that harassed them for few centuries after..

Any Romanized Dacians were evacuated to the Balkans in 272..

Meanwhile Southern Illyrians and Thracians survived very well. They didn't rebel and even Thracians were allies of the Romans and kept their client state for a long time.

From samples so far in Romania, most Moldovan V13 seems local, plenty in Transylvania, Wallachia I believe minority are locals, as logical..

 

[Aspurg]

If E-V13 expanded from the Upper Tisza area with G�va, which would the observable phylogeny the best, it most certainly reached more Western areas already in the LBA, with Urnfield movements. The Urnfield connection is obvious, but the core provinces of G�va were largely unaffected by more significant Urnfield movements from the West. They pushed from East of the Tisza, from the Great Hungarian plain West and influenced, at least with small groups and individuals, far beyond that.
Of course, there is the possibility that most of the E-V13 spread started more South and/or East, but then the modern distribution and phylogeny is more difficult to explain. It should start later, being more Southern concentrated, what it doesn't to be. But its possible of course.

The interplay of more Western/North Western Tumulus culture and Urnfield groups with Kyjatice-G�va was very complex and doesn't look straight. I think its possible that there was quite some variation within the more Western provinces and outliers all around. But the bulk of G�va is not from it but from Pannonian EBA-MBA groups with a high proportion of Neolithic plus Epi-Corded influence, rather minor BB-related Western ancestry.

Its such a pity we probably never will get proper Fr�g elite and warrior samples, because I would bet they got E-V13 too, because that area being influenced multiple times from the Channelled Ware related groups: Kyjatice-G�va influence, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-early Hallstatt contacts. The archaeological context is pretty clear.

@Aspurg: What do you think about the pockets of E-V13 in Northern Italy, like Liguria, some areas of Lombardy and Switzerland, like the very West and very East (St. Gallen) interestingly. I still think this could be related to LBA to Hallstatt movements into the Alpine zone.

In Liguria FGC11450 has some elevated presence, and there might be some diversity too. If there is any connection there should be some more structure there, not isolated branches. Like for E-Y186952 I predicted non-Balkan origin due to high structure of its more East German members. So it seems Carpathain origin for this clade.

E-FGC67001 above also has E-BY4835 with high structure.

Guy with the Turkish flag is also (by origin) a Pole from Carpathian Poland and he is related to another W.Ukrainian. He put the Turkish flag because his surname is identical to the name of a Biblical patriarch and with the same name. :awesome:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/helon/about/background

I think Romania is really a problem again. Not only Romanians don't test for Y-DNA alot but there isn't a single aDNA from Romanian Iron Age and Bronze Age...

MJ12 is from Ukraine next to Romanian border, Moldovan Scythians are from Transnistria, not Moldova proper, Pannonian study Gavans are from NE Hungary..

Hopefully someone will test Goligrad group from Ukraine at some point in the future.

 

[Ygorcs]

And actually in Transylvania these people represented the dominant political factor until the arrival of the Celts, only later did the Dacians establish their domination of the region by toppling the Celts, and including in their ranks the old Agathyrsi.

This is why archeologically Dacians were different as opposed to Getae, groups from modern day Wallachia and Moldavia. These too had some Scythian influences of different kind.

It seems plenty or most of those Scythians were of proto-Daco-Thracian origin anyway.

This interestingly aligns well with the hypothesis that the Cimmerians were not (at least not initially) Iranic speakers, but speakers of something Daco-Thracian or closely related to it, ultimately descending from a language of the Catacomb culture, but perhaps ruled by an originally foreign Iranic-speaking elite (a first signal of Scythian expansion before other Scythians drove them away altogether, forcing them to move to Caucasia, Anatolia and the Balkans, while absorbing those who stayed?).

The western Scythians seem to have been considerably different from the eastern Scythians right from the start, even before the East Asian-shifting population movements from the later half of 1st millennium B.C. onwards (especially from the times of the Xiongnu Empire), a fact that could indicate that much of the local Scythians, in the western steppes and adjacent areas in Romania, Hungary etc., were assimilated Daco-Thracians from the steppe and also different ones from the forested areas.

Such an origin for Daco-Thracian could help explain the noted similarities with Balto-Slavic, that is, it's pretty plausible if Daco-Thracian was originally spoken in the Ukrainian steppe and forest-steppe just south of where Balto-Slavic was evolving in northern Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and westernmost Russia.

Just some loud ramblings and speculations of mine... LOL