E-V13 clades spreading with the Vekerzug Scythians

This interestingly aligns well with the hypothesis that the Cimmerians were not (at least not initially) Iranic speakers, but speakers of something Daco-Thracian or closely related to it, ultimately descending from a language of the Catacomb culture, but perhaps ruled by an originally foreign Iranic-speaking elite (a first signal of Scythian expansion before other Scythians drove them away altogether, forcing them to move to Caucasia, Anatolia and the Balkans, while absorbing those who stayed?).

The western Scythians seem to have been considerably different from the eastern Scythians right from the start, even before the East Asian-shifting population movements from the later half of 1st millennium B.C. onwards (especially from the times of the Xiongnu Empire), a fact that could indicate that much of the local Scythians, in the western steppes and adjacent areas in Romania, Hungary etc., were assimilated Daco-Thracians from the steppe and also different ones from the forested areas.

Such an origin for Daco-Thracian could help explain the noted similarities with Balto-Slavic, that is, it's pretty plausible if Daco-Thracian was originally spoken in the Ukrainian steppe and forest-steppe just south of where Balto-Slavic was evolving in northern Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and westernmost Russia.

Just some loud ramblings and speculations of mine... LOL

There was a steppe culture involved in the formation of G?va, but rather as a fringe phenomenon and in the end the Channelled Ware people rather pushed it back. But the debate was and still is ongoing. Its the Noua culture which was part of the great west and southward movements of steppe people, some related to the chariot complex, which might have contributed to the collapse of Unetice and helped the spread of Proto-Greek.
In Transylvania they pushed Wietenberg back and controlled large areas. But G?va while complex in origin and absorbing some of these pastoralist steppe elements, seems to rather have pushed them back. But then again, there are numerous Northern, Western, Southern and Eastern influences, all working on the Tisza basin population which seems to be crucial, which could all contributed the lineage. But going by the E-V13 phylogeny, its also about the latest time for the start of the massive expansion, because it started slower in the Middle branch age, with the basic branches being formed, then these branches experienced in the LBA-EIA massive founder effects. Kind of preparing the stage for their greatest moment. So they had to be in an at least stable growing, relatively successful population from the Middle Bronze Age on.
This just fits the best with some pre-G?va context everything considered.

As for Liguria, I'm very tempted to attribute most of the variation we could observe in Sardinians from Cagliari to Northern Italians, especially Genuese. I also see that in the STR results of some, but I'm no expert on interpreting these and they are not always reliable anyway for lesser known subclades. If the Cagliari samples represent largely the Ligurian/North Italian rather than Southern influence, which I know is debatable, but possible, also because of accompanying other more Northern lineages, this would speak for a Northern land route and a fairly high diversity from the LBA. It would also allign well with the Italian study which noted Northern clusters and a good age in Italy. Their estimate fit the best with a LBA-EIA expansion, but that's not safe of course, just a good model they proposed. But that they came to a LBA date is quite a coincidence if its not true.
 
Also for example, the Romanian language belongs to the Balkan sprachbund together with other Southern Balkan languages such as Albanian, Greek, Aromanian, Bulgarian, Macedonia, Torlakian and some Serbian.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund


This contact happened because these people lived in the same or overlapping areas in the Southern Balkans and not modern Romania or the Danube. Various empires ruled these lands such as the Byzantine, Bulgarian Empire, Serbian Empire, Albanian principalities and Vlach and Albanian settlements were also recorded historically in the West/Central Balkans and Southern Balkans.

Romanian also shares a common origin with other Vlachs such as Aromanian, Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian, Morovlach etc , Vlach populations that were recorded in the Western Balkans that spoke a variant of Romanian/Aromanian. Romanians themselves were recorded in the Western/Central/South Balkans.


All the Vlachs recorded historically in the Western Balkans were Aromanian/Romanian speakers. One can see this just by studying placenames and names.


The Vlachs in Kosovo had Romanian names for example.


Also for example, most of Romania and the danube was almost never under Roman occupation, only some small parts of Romania were under Roman occupation and they were only for under 190 years or so.
 
Those V13 samples were not merchants. Scythians didn't care about such people. He was a warrior, especially this very Southeastern La Tene sample was armed with spear, knifes, sword.. And btw as I explained in my previous post DA198 Southern Scythian and MJ12 work well for them.

J2a EBA and LBA samples indicate there was some strong Aegean auDNA in Carpathians. Probably related to Glina III-Schneckenberg and some cultures that followed it (possibly Ottomani, Wietenberg).

With more samples we will know more, but odds are against you because we already have one more potential E-V13 La Tene sample from Southern France, that makes E-V13 as a minority but still showing up quite consistently among La Tene Hallstatt Culture. It could be that those E-V13 are not Vekerzug at all but the opposite. Confirmation bias is a real thing.
 
With more samples we will know more, but odds are against you because we already have one more potential E-V13 La Tene sample from Southern France, that makes E-V13 as a minority but still showing up quite consistently among La Tene Hallstatt Culture. It could be that those E-V13 are not Vekerzug at all but the opposite. Confirmation bias is a real thing.

Both is likely, because from the Carpathian source regions splinters did move West on more than one occasion, like
- Urnfield
- Thraco-Cimmerian
- Basarabi-Hallstatt
- Scythians
- La Tene backflow
- Greek and Roman related movements
- Migration period
 
With more samples we will know more, but odds are against you because we already have one more potential E-V13 La Tene sample from Southern France, that makes E-V13 as a minority but still showing up quite consistently among La Tene Hallstatt Culture. It could be that those E-V13 are not Vekerzug at all but the opposite. Confirmation bias is a real thing.

I know of that sample, but still even if some V13 made it to there, they were in great minority. No, this Vekerzug sample had too much of Scythian gear with him to be a local, plus females with a Southeastern profile had more of it. Like the whole Vekerzug culture they came from the East, hat is an Eastern culture. Locals were definitely two R-L51 guys with a local Unrfield profile and without Scythian gear.

Plus as I've said this La Tene Gyor sample was from another earlier Vekerzug site very nearby. He had most of Scythian auDNA. And ofc this other La Tene "Southerner" is autosomally well modelled with DA198 and MJ12, plus he carried a Scythian MtDNA, so he likely came from the direction of DA198 and recently. And most definitely not from "Greece" (or as Bruzmi tried to make him and all of V13 related to Illyrian Dalmatians), there were surely very Southern people in and around Carpathians, who likely were J2a heavy.

Already it seems apparent V13 was involved with these Pannonian-Carpathian Scythians. Was it involved with earlier groups, yes.
 
Scythian Borat Sagdiyev on a horseback.


PazyrikHorseman.JPG
 
I know of that sample, but still even if some V13 made it to there, they were in great minority. No, this Vekerzug sample had too much of Scythian gear with him to be a local, plus females with a Southeastern profile had more of it. Like the whole Vekerzug culture they came from the East, hat is an Eastern culture. Locals were definitely two R-L51 guys with a local Unrfield profile and without Scythian gear.

Plus as I've said this La Tene Gyor sample was from another earlier Vekerzug site very nearby. He had most of Scythian auDNA. And ofc this other La Tene "Southerner" is autosomally well modelled with DA198 and MJ12, plus he carried a Scythian MtDNA, so he likely came from the direction of DA198 and recently. And most definitely not from "Greece" (or as Bruzmi tried to make him and all of V13 related to Illyrian Dalmatians), there were surely very Southern people in and around Carpathians, who likely were J2a heavy.

Already it seems apparent V13 was involved with these Pannonian-Carpathian Scythians. Was it involved with earlier groups, yes.

Your interpretations can be paralleled with that of Bruzmi, completely impossible for that sample to be modelled as Scythian-like and MJ12 Thraco-Cimmerian-like. I mean 0% possibility, i checked his autosomal and did quite balanced regional Chalcolithic/EBA components, and he doesn't score anything related to that area, he looks a recent immigrant from Southern Balkans within the context of Late Iron Age.
 
Your interpretations can be paralleled with that of Bruzmi, completely impossible for that sample to be modelled as Scythian-like and MJ12 Thraco-Cimmerian-like. I mean 0% possibility, i checked his autosomal and did quite balanced regional Chalcolithic/EBA components, and he doesn't score anything related to that area, he looks a recent immigrant from Southern Balkans within the context of Late Iron Age.

That degenerate seems to suffer from a pronounced cognitive dissonance disorder. Don't follow in his footsteps..

Who cares about Chalcolithic type auDNA which didn't exist in IA anymore?? Those should be used only when here are no IA samples..

Our V13, with more than 5200 samples on G25, MJ12 comes as 3rd closest to him. J2b2 La Tene 2nd, V13 Geto-Scythian 5th, Vekerzug sample 4th. IA Bulgarian 5th...
Distance to:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
0.02942434HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
0.03473345HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I4998
0.03718422UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04051750SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.04070183Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.04072761BGR_IA:I5769
0.04078411HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.04116147HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.04208370ITA_Daunian:ORD009
0.04227834ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
0.04265769HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.04369392SRB_BA_Maros:I23209
0.04392344Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:pRU001.A0101
0.04411479SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23208
0.04424152HRV_MBA:I4331
0.04424772HRV_EIA:I26742
0.04430839GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.04442846HRV_EIA:I23904
0.04459924ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
0.04462277ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04476954Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979
0.04499078SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11722
0.04534405HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ40
0.04568674HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.04606025ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR969


Him with some Balkan samples, Myceneans are rather far.. Also clearly Proto-Illyrians/Delmatians etc also not as close.
Distance to:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
0.03718422UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04051750SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.04070183Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.04072761BGR_IA:I5769
0.04116147HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.04442846HRV_EIA:I23904
0.04770942Scythian_MDA:scy300
0.04918639Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.05042316Scythian_HUN:DA198
0.05482127HRV_IA:I3313
0.05523634HRV_EIA:I23995
0.05619440Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.06167173HRV_EIA:I23996
0.06182606HRV_EIA:I23911
0.06667336HRV_EIA:I24638
0.07131512GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.07647551GRC_Mycenaean:I9010


His modelling with these:
Target: HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
Distance: 2.1463% / 0.02146333
39.4 UKR_Cimmerian_o
18.2 BGR_IA
17.8 HRV_EIA
15.4 GRC_Mycenaean
9.2 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup

This to you means he has "nothing to do with MJ12"??? :LOL::LOL::LOL:

He is not as Southern as you are portraying him to be. He carries an ultra Scythian mtDNA, most likely he is a recent migrant from Hungarian Scythian areas. Such profiles were alot more common in those areas also.
 
The point still stands, it looks to me that E-V13 intruded into Carpathian mountain during MBA from somewhere else. I still stand to my original opinion that it came from further west than Carpathians.
 
That degenerate seems to suffer from a pronounced cognitive dissonance disorder. Don't follow in his footsteps..

Who cares about Chalcolithic type auDNA which didn't exist in IA anymore?? Those should be used only when here are no IA samples..

Our V13, with more than 5200 samples on G25, MJ12 comes as 3rd closest to him. J2b2 La Tene 2nd, V13 Geto-Scythian 5th, Vekerzug sample 4th. IA Bulgarian 5th...
Distance to:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
0.02942434HRV_Pop_CA:pOP39
0.03473345HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I4998
0.03718422UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04051750SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.04070183Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.04072761BGR_IA:I5769
0.04078411HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.04116147HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.04208370ITA_Daunian:ORD009
0.04227834ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
0.04265769HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.04369392SRB_BA_Maros:I23209
0.04392344Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:pRU001.A0101
0.04411479SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23208
0.04424152HRV_MBA:I4331
0.04424772HRV_EIA:I26742
0.04430839GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.04442846HRV_EIA:I23904
0.04459924ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
0.04462277ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04476954Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979
0.04499078SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11722
0.04534405HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ40
0.04568674HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.04606025ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR969

Him with some Balkan samples, Myceneans are rather far.. Also clearly Proto-Illyrians/Delmatians etc also not as close.
Distance to:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
0.03718422UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04051750SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.04070183Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.04072761BGR_IA:I5769
0.04116147HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.04442846HRV_EIA:I23904
0.04770942Scythian_MDA:scy300
0.04918639Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.05042316Scythian_HUN:DA198
0.05482127HRV_IA:I3313
0.05523634HRV_EIA:I23995
0.05619440Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.06167173HRV_EIA:I23996
0.06182606HRV_EIA:I23911
0.06667336HRV_EIA:I24638
0.07131512GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.07647551GRC_Mycenaean:I9010

His modelling with these:
Target: HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
Distance: 2.1463% / 0.02146333
39.4 UKR_Cimmerian_o
18.2 BGR_IA
17.8 HRV_EIA
15.4 GRC_Mycenaean
9.2 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup

This to you means he has "nothing to do with MJ12"??? :LOL::LOL::LOL:

He is not as Southern as you are portraying him to be. He carries an ultra Scythian mtDNA, most likely he is a recent migrant from Hungarian Scythian areas. Such profiles were alot more common in those areas also.

Do not want to chip in on the analysis part. But I do believe the _o on G25 means outlier. So that should be telling. Only chipping in since I18832 is among my closest matches.

Edit: For reference:

B3LbE7B.png


This is why basing analyses on outliers can be tricky. Without knowing the naming convention for G25 one could make a point of Cimmerians being Illyrian/Roman.
 
Hi Aspurg!

May I ask where did you find that I14465 Vekerzug sample from Hetény belongs to Y196687?
 
I revisited the MKD samples since they are all over the place and to see if there needs to be some consideration in understanding them. It does look like the southeast MKD group has more Thracian ancestery than realized, much of it being in the form of early Thracian, before the south Thracians got shifted to Aegean like profile.

ITYVWd7.png

SgqLdmY.png

VARJ1oD.png

8qVT1DY.png




The MKD samples can be divided as follows.

1) I8112 and I10383 are west Dardanian like, they have Skopje I10379 ancestry with Illyrian, one even has partial Celtic ancestry.
2) MKD I10390, I10391 and Skopje I10381 have a strong north Thracian ancestry (Vekerzug Balkan and Mezocsat), the other secondary components are local (MKD Ohrid and MKD Dardanian). I10390 and I10391 are my MKD Southeastern average and it looks like they are merely unaltered Thracian(no Aegean mixture) with some local MKD mixture.
3) MKD I10379 is the most complete Dardanian R1b-Z2103 profile to date. She shows a little Thracian mixture, but maybe it could be that the south Thracians themselves might carry a portion of this I10379 ancestry.
4) Alb Mdv I13834 and MKD I10384 are very much the same, even their tag number are similar as fate would have it. Both belong to the MKD Ohrid group, but with Illyrian BA mixture. Alb I13834 is clearly miss-dated.
5) The rest of MKD Ohrid are their own unique local.


It looks like some unaltered Thracian profile survived in eastern Macedonia.
 
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I do think that the Central Balkan Thracian groups won't be as much Aegean as the Southern ones, but probably in between - with the Dacians having also some Aegean, but how much is completely unknown.
 
I've come to the conclusion the Vekerzug and the two MKD southeast individuals are highly mixed and don't represent a particular tribe/people. The Vekerzug are a prelude of the Hun-Avar-Maygar samples from Hungary, of the highly mixed individuals that were clearly abducted by the steppe nomadic tribes from different unrelated regions and planted in the Hungarian plain. These individual samples are only valuable for modeling if their profile is unmixed, which does not appear to be the case, we can't determine what they represent.
 
Continuity

I've come to the conclusion the Vekerzug and the two MKD southeast individuals are highly mixed and don't represent a particular tribe/people. The Vekerzug are a prelude of the Hun-Avar-Maygar samples from Hungary, of the highly mixed individuals that were clearly abducted by the steppe nomadic tribes from different unrelated regions and planted in the Hungarian plain. These individual samples are only valuable for modeling if their profile is unmixed, which does not appear to be the case, we can't determine what they represent.

Vekerzug is not even a unified culture, but more of a horizon. The more Thracian locals being concentrated in the Eastern cremating group. The type site is Sanislau in todays Romania:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanislău

That's the same core zone which was home for Cotofeni, Mak?-Livezile-Soimus, Ny?rs?g-Sanislau, Gyulavars?nd-Eastern Otomani, Suciu de Sus, Lăpuș, G?va, Eastern Vekerzug (Sanislau)-Kustanovice, Early Dacians. Note that most of the type sites being in Western Romania, not within the borders of (modern) Hungary.

I still think that Eastern Vekerzug (Sanislau group) were part of the West-migrating Thraco-Scythians, and that's what we see. Also interesting that the type site of Sanislau was very important throughout the ages, like EBA Ny?rs?g-Sanislau and EIA Vekerzug-Sanislau, same type site, same place!

Ny?rs?g-Sanislău:
http://www.donau-archaeologie.de/doku.php/kulturen/nyirseg_english_version

The centre for this local element was always the Upper Tisza-Transtisza/East Carpathian zone.
 
My grandfather was born in Szaniszló/Sanislau and I also live 10 km west of this village. Although it is actually located in Romania, it is inhabited by a population of Hungarian nationality. Among the settlements you listed, there are at least as many in Hungary (Makó, Gyula, Nyírség, Gáva) as in Romania. The border marked in 1920 divides the region that connected the Körös valley with the Szamos and the Upper Tisza valleys since the Körös culture. And this is the Ér valley, where human settlement dates back to the Neolithic and is continuous.

I completely agree that Vekerzug was formed from the mixing of local Gáva elements with Scythian elements from the east, and is the basis of the later Dacian population. I studied Neolithic and Bronze Age Carpathian archeology at the University of Miskolc, and I also came to the conclusion that the Nyírség culture (which, by the way, is not related to the Thracians but to the Vucedol, i.e. the proto-Illyrian group) is continuous to the Gává, and the Upper Tisza region has preserved a specific archaeological its face, neither the Tumulus, nor the Urnfield, nor the eastern (Yamnaya, Mezőcsát and then Pre-Scythian) elements left any archaeological traces. There are no Yamnaya kurgans in this area, while the Great Plain is full of them.



In the spring, based on my WGS results, I prepared a PCA analysis and a clustering at the University of Szeged with the help of Tibor Török and Endre Neparáczki with 3,750 archaic and modern samples from David Reich's database. The results require a long interpretation, based on them I cluster near the samples from the Carpathian Basin that have been here since the beginning of the Bronze Age. close to the samples identified as Scythian DA194, DA197 and scy009. At the same time, surprisingly, a lot of Bell Beaker samples also belong here and the Celtic and Germanic population is not far from this cluster either, as 17 Longobards also fall here (11 from Szólád, 6 from Collegno).

I show you the map on which you can find the 78 archaic samples that form a cluster out of the 3750 based on the first 1000 branches on the main axes of the PCA. It suggests an interesting relationship.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/e...k&ll=53.01639165588511,-9.815845558639815&z=4



I would add that all my ancestors in the last 300 years came from the region of the Upper Tisza. From the territory of present-day northeastern Hungary, eastern Slovakia and Zakarpattia of Ukraine. KB. where the EV13 comes from, I think.
 
Of course, even the Romanian sites had often a Hungarian population and place name too. Like e.g. Suciu de Sus which in Hungarian being often named by its Hungarian place name Felsőszőcs. The sites don't always represent the centre anyway, but type sites can be in fringe areas too. However, it is clear that only the Nyirseg region of Hungary, its very North Eastern tip, being fully in this sphere throughout the ages.

As for modern similitary, this can be sometimes quite misleading because many mixtures can create similar profiles. It is quite interesting, nevertheless, that the basic ratio didn't change that much on the long term, even if its because of many recent admixture events.
 
Of course, each PCA is determined by the samples it is composed of, and the same mix can be mixed from several sources. Nevertheless, it is interesting to see where and in how many clusters the samples belonging to each archaic population "cluster". Among the Scythians, e.g. the Celto-Germanic, Jamnaic and the rest. Among the Longobards are the Carpathian basins, Celtic, Celto-scythian, Germanic clusters. They show their way from the Weser valley to the Po valley. If you think so, I will be happy to send you the PCA analysis and the clustering as well. I can't show it here, its size is too big.
 
Your upstream branch E-Z17107 is quite interesting because it has in all major subclades Hungarian members. Could be really Hungarian plus neighbourhood in origin. On FTDNA are some additional Hungarian branch members to those on YFull.
 
Since 2017, I have been researching the Z17107 subspecies and contacted everyone who appeared in the databases.Based on these, I would link the ancestor of Z17107 to the Gáva culture with the following reasoning.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

I'm id:YF011315 on Yfull, inside E-A19238 hpg. id:YF013045 is another Küzmös family with whom our last common ancestor lived between 1770-1831 according to the registers. We are descended from his son György born in 1811, and the other Küzmös family from his another son Mihály, born in 1804.


Yfull guesses TMRCA at 225 years, which is particularly accurate. The Küzmös are Hungarian today, but our first known ancestor lived in Bárdháza south of Munkács (today Barbovo, south of Mukacheve, Ukraine Zakarpattia territory) in 1715 and was probably a Ruthenian, as he was a Greek Catholic priest there.

On the next level, we found the Szinetár/Senetar family. id:YF016494 on yfull.

Today they are also Hungarians, but their first ancestor also lived south of Munkács, in Drágabártfalva (now Dorobatovo, Ukraine, Zakarpattia) in 1720 and was also a Ruthenian.

Drágabártfalva and Bárdháza are 10 km from each other!!! The Küzmös and Szinetárs together are the sub E-Y81971, TMRCA according to yfull 550 ybp (1470CE). According to FtDNA, 1639CE is the median value.


The next level is E-A19239, which is not on yfull but on Ftdna and gives a mid 12BCE TMRCA with the English Austin/Auston families. The Austins and Austons have an English paternal line until the 1600s, no earlier ones are known.

The next level is the E-FT27670, where according the Yfull 2400 ybp TMRCA, and according the FtDNA 148 BCE TMRCA we have a common ancestor with a N.N. albanian family from Tirana. (they were the only Albanians who did not give their family name.Maybe the Kastrioti family?)

The next level is the E-A19247, which TMRCA is 2500 ybp (yfull) and where we found a russian family from Vladivostok, Russia (the sample donor's grandfather grew up in an orphanage in Vladivostok, so he does not know his family's name or where they come from. From somewhere in Russia or Ukraine, that's all he knows).

The next level is E-Y196687 where we found 2 new families. In other words, there are 3 subgroups here: the first is E-A19247, the second is the Russian Schepak family whose first known ancestor comes from Baranya/Baranovo near Ungvár/Uzhorod in Zakarpattia, Ukraine, 50 km northwest of where the Küzmös/Szinetár ancestors lived . The third is the English Hansard/Hansford families. We are 2600 years deep.

And now we have reached the ancestor of Z17107, 2900 ybp according to Yfull, 795 BCE according to FtDNA. This is the time of the Gáva culture. This is when the family splits into several branches. My own E-Y196687 is the first. The second, and the most populous is the E-Y30991, where there are families from all the countries of the Balkans. In addition to 17 Albanians and 15 Bulgarians, there are also Serbian, Greek, Turkish, Macedonian, Montenegrin, Bosnian, Croatian and Romanian. But also Hungarian, Ukrainian, Swedish, French, English and 3 Sicilians. But they are all on the same subgroup.

But we also have less populous subgroups on line Z17107 which are neither Y196687 nor Y30991.
+1 subgroup: the Fedushka family from Dobromyl (the Polish-Ukraina border, at the northern foot of the Norteastern Carpathians)
+2 subgroup: The Forgách family, from Szirák, Nógrad county, north Hungary and a N.N family from Canada
+3 subgroup: The Johnson family, Dublin Ireland
+4 subgroup: The Elmore family from North Carolina - originally from Gloucestershire, England
+5 subgroup The Smith family from Indiana and the Anderson from Ohio, no deeper root is known.

In summary, I think I vote for the Gáva culture because of the age and the many families from the North-East Carpathians. In the Balkans, although there are many more present-day Z17107s and they are more widespread, they are all from a single younger branch, (dacian? balkanic celts - scordiscii, tylis?)the others, British Isles and Ruthenian lines are older. In other words, I think that after the Gáva age, our ancestor merged into the Vekerzug culture, then among the eastern Celts who arrived 2400 years ago, and when the Dacians broke the 300-year Celtic rule in the Carpathian basin around 60 BCE, then the ancestors of today's Z17107 Britons could have gone west with the Celts fleeing from here.
 

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