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E-V13 Frequencies and New Data

And they begin to fully aknowledge the fact that E-V13 is a Daco-Thracian/Proto-Thracian haplogroup essentially. You can discuss many details, but don't be too critical. Again, compare this work with what we got up to this point...

There is no way around yet they still try to frame the Himera's as Illyrians, ignoring IBD data which favors Thracian and Qpdam (their models failed, even though they used a basic right command EEF-Africa-WHG-EHG-CHG). Using such right commands is not a standard to ake measurements, it's affirmative action, like passing everyone in the classroom because of their skin color. Their runs don;t mean much, but at the end of the day one has to respect output, even if the method is questionable and they just ignore the output.

This is interesting:
icXiR1o.png


We know people in the past were tribal so using the chart above as guidance, IBD fragments that pass the 10-11cM threshold point out to real concrete(tribal/ethnic) relation. The Himeras shared 11.708 cM with EIA Thracians. That is the equivalent of the average the Albanian from dilaectal group shares with eachother. The Thracian samples are not in the same timeline or ideal geography, more ideal would be to have Daco-Thracian samples from Moldova, where the Himerans are likely from.

Table 23 is very useful, the closest E-V13 branches to Albanian so far, are found in Hungary (post-Roman period), some in Vicimacium, and the Himeras. However all branches to date are LBA and EIA cousin to Albanian branches. And all J2b-L283 cousin branches to Albanians are found in the Adriatic. It can't get more obvious than that, you would think at least one person from the paper would have noticed it. Maybe they are not smart enough, who knows.

The fact that Albanian specific branches(at last 0 AD branching) are not found in Hungary makes it clear Albanian branches are not Dacian as some of the Avar E-V13s have to be Dacian derived, if not majority of them. The fact that R-Z2705 does not show in the Avar samples either again points to the E-V13 Albanian branches being south, away from the Danube region. All this aligns with the only toponyms that show Albanian phonetic transmition, Stip, Naissus, and Stipon. Based on hard data this is the only viable theory to date. Talking about the paper is pointless, the authors are who they are. I don't see professionalism in their conclusions.
 
Connecting the issue with E-V13 in general, I noticed how rare it is that modern branches from Central Europe match with those found in Hungary within a more recent time frame. Actually, a couple of the Hungarian samples show a decisively more Southern relationship, which is true even for the generally Northern branches.

That means we still miss a large fraction, the bulk of the E-V13 core population, even in the Roman and Avar period. They being not sampled yet, complately under the radar of ancient DNA research.

To elaborate what I mean, look at:

Both main Northern branches under Z5018/S2979 have already a lot of ancient DNA samples from Hungary, both Roman, Avar and Magyar era samples.

But none of them has a TMRCA with the moderns closer than the Hallstatt period. Most don't even get close to the La Tene/Roman period AT ALL.

Those for FGC11457 in particular all date back to the Channelled Ware and early Basarabi period (LBA-EIA). There is no later overlap.

For L241 it gets closer, but the closest we got (Dacian-Roman era), like the Slovakian Roman era ones, have matches in Greece. Or the La Tene era TMRCA has Albanian matches.

Therefore the general trend is we get even from Hungary and Northern branches rather Southern representatives. Where are all the branches which left mainly descendants in Central Europe? In this respect the Crypta Balbi sample from Italy is really interesting, with a La Tene era TMRCA and connected to a modern ethnic Romanian branch, plus a spread to England, Germany and the East. I think that's a Dacian branch for sure and it points to regional survival, plus resettlements and migrations into Central Europe and England.
That it was found in Rome in Late Antiquity is absolutely not by chance, it was dispersed through the Empire. But its so typical, that this likely strong regional Dacian branch of E-V13 (E-Z38770) was found in Italy in the ancient DNA record, rather than Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria etc. This shows how much of a gap we got, including for the Roman era. It is well sampled in modern English and was found in Late Antiquity Italia, but we still can't pin it down in its homeland...

The lack of closer matches of the modern branches with the Hungarian ancient samples, especially for FGC11457, is very suspicious. Probably its just sampling bias, but its remarkable nevertheless.

Here is another branch under CTS9320 with a similar pattern:

This branch is remarkable for having 3 (!) ancient DNA samples from Hungary, but thre are no modern matches and a parallel branch has a sample from Turkey. However, the two parallel branches (Turkey and Central European) are going back to the Gáva/Channelled Ware period!

Similar for E-BY10411, 3 Hungarian samples, but modern branch members (far away still) from Greece. Same again for E-BY4573, with 2-3 from Hungary, modern samples in Albania-Bulgaria.

We get similar instances from both L241 and even more CTS9320. Well-represented branches in the Hungarian ancient DNA record, which have either no modern matches or most matches from the Balkans, Aegean and Anatolia.
But no close matches to modern branches from Central and Central-Eastern Europe, which are more common in moderns. So where were they? They are not covered by the current ancient DNA record, and I get suspicious as where they were.
 
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I also share the same opinion, just because Himera has higher ratio of WHG + Steppe than Bulgaria_EIA, doesn't really mean they are Illyrian, otherwise so far from the pattern we have spotted E-V13 in majority sticked to eachother, no other Y-DNA in good percentages accompanied them during LBA-EIA.
 
I also share the same opinion, just because Himera has higher ratio of WHG + Steppe than Bulgaria_EIA, doesn't really mean they are Illyrian, otherwise so far from the pattern we have spotted E-V13 in majority sticked to eachother, no other Y-DNA in good percentages accompanied them during LBA-EIA.

I guess Belegis-Gava II Culture people would have Himera-like autosomal and E-V13 Y-DNA.


Figure2-p40-Perspectives-on-Balkan-Archaeology-Kapuran-Bulatovic-2020.jpg
 
A gold cup from Early Iron Age Thracian cultures, X-VIII century B.C 23 karat gold. Supposedly it has been used as a funerary urn.


960px-NHMB-Kazichene-symbolic-funeral-10-7-centuryBC.jpg
 
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As noted by Krassimir Nikov, Stamped-Ware appears in Gordium in Phrygia as well, so, it would be totally normal to see E-V13 among Phrygians, in fact we already have 1 E-L618 (yet to see if he was downstream E-V13) from Phrygian Valley.

Also, he notes Stamped-Ware appears as south as Rhodes. IDK, if he is correct to assume the one who appears in Rhodes Islands is related to the Southern Thracian Stamped-Ware.
 
Both for Gáva-related and Stamped Pottery, we have to distinguish between the pottery and the material culture associated with the people primarily producing it. The influence of the Stamped Pottery-related Cantharoi can be put on a map:

Metzner-Nebelsick-359.jpg


Note that its not equivalent with Daco-Thracians, but we can speak of at least single migrants, groups, marriage exchange, trade for sure, but even more than that, as can be seen in the Frög group (not the coloration in Austria) which has a many Daco-Thracian influences and obvious migrants on its cemetaries from the Carpatho-Danubian sphere. Most of the influences came from Basarabi, but there are also similarities to South Thracians in some areas, which points to the whole zone being a communication and exchange network on many levels - largely dominated by Daco-Thracians.
 
I used Stefanos tool for evaluating IBD-sharing for various samples available in this data set (pretty limited unfortunately, but some interesting ones included). Here is the link: https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?tid=1950

The biggest takeaways are that all Balkan-like Thracian-related groups share IBD (Mezocsat most Balkan-like female, Vekerzug Balkan cluster, East Thracian from Glinoe, South Thracian from BGR_IA). That's all the more significant, since they Daco-Thracians individuals, regardless of exact region, have a general lack of IBD matching compared to many other populations. Its astounding how reduced their matching is, compared to many other samples. But these Thracian-related cultures do match!

Plus this big thing to me

One sample pops up multiple times and being also close to the Himera samples: pop39

That's Northern Croatia, close to the border to Hungary, Carpathian basin.

Ancestry:

TUR_Barcin_N: 65.70 %
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara: 31.16 %
WHG: 2.80 %
Han: 0.35 %

Note that this is nearly identical with the Thracian Hallstatt sampels from Kartal and at the same time, this female shares segments with South Thracians!

We grouped the new Copper Age individual, POP39, with a previously published cladal individual, I3499 (Supplementary Table S2, Supplementary Table S6), who originates from the same site and time period (Croatia_Pop_CA). This group is shifted further up along PC2 and clusters with three previously reported Bronze Age samples from coastal Dalmatia (Croatia_Dal_BA), falling within the wide distribution of Bulgarian and Hungarian Bronze Age genomes and present-day southern Europeans in PCA space (Fig. 2) suggesting the presence of steppe-related ancestry.

We obtained a feasible two-way admixture model with the more proximal, broadly contemporaneous pre-steppe group Croatia_North-East_CA (64 ± 8%) and Yamnaya_Samara (36 ± 8%) (Fig. 3b, Supplementary Table S4).

This is pre-Kisapostag Vucedol (Vucedol-Cotofoni?) ancestry!!!
We considered the newly-reported Middle Bronze Age genomes from Jagodnjak (Croatia_Jag_MBA) a single group for further population genetic analysis based on common archaeological context and clustering on the PCA (Fig. 2). We observe a marked shift left along PC1 towards Western and Iron Gates hunter-gatherers, with which it shares the most drift in outgroup f3-statistics (Supplementary Fig. S3, Supplementary Table S3). Distal admixture modelling using sources WHG, Anatolia_N and Yamnaya_Samara confirms a large WHG component in Croatia_Jag_MBA (20 ± 2%), in contrast to Croatia_Pop_CA, and is more than double the fraction estimated for the broadly contemporaneous Dalmatian Bronze Age (Fig. 3a, Supplementary Fig. S4, Supplementary Table S4), also consistent with the significantly positive F4 tests of the form f4(Mbuti.DG, WHG; Croatia_Dal_BA, Croatia_Jag_MBA) (Z = 6.95) (Supplementary Table S7). The Jagodnjak group also harbours slightly greater steppe-related ancestry compared to the preceding Croatia_Pop_CA at 33 ± 5% (see also Supplementary Fig. S6), consistent with previous findings for the Balkan region2. Replacing WHG with Iron_Gates_HG harbours comparable results (Supplementary Table S4). This group falls at the left side of the wide distribution of Bronze Age populations from the Carpathian Basin in PCA space, as well as present-day NW European genomes such as French, suggesting an eastward expansion of the Western Bronze Age signature.

I agree with their conclusion but there is one problem: Makó sample is a total burial outlier and likely more in line with Western Kisapostag influence:

The excess WHG-related ancestry present in Middle Bronze Age Jagodnjak suggests that this group descends from populations harbouring additional WHG-related ancestry that is lacking in the preceding Croatian Copper Age or Dalmatian Bronze Age, consistent with qpAdm modelling (Fig. 3b, Supplementary Table S4). Archaeological evidence points to exchange networks between the Middle Bronze Age communities of eastern Croatia and other cultural groups further north29. Based on its date and core distribution in the Carpathian Basin32, as well as its clustering with Croatia_Jag_MBA in UMAP and PCA space, we considered Hungary_Makó_EBA the most suitable candidate source of ancestry. This choice is further supported by Hungary_Makó_EBA sharing similar amounts of drift with WHG to Croatia_Jag_MBA (Supplementary Fig. S7, Supplementary Table S3). We indeed obtained feasible models with Hungary_Makó_EBA, either as a two-way model with 35 ± 11% contribution from Croatia_Pop_CA or as a single source (Fig. 3b, Supplementary Table S4).

Makó is not the source, but received - in outliers - the same type of Kisapostag admixture which ultimately spread from the North East, from some GAC-HG-steppe mixed group (which also contributed to the Baltoslavs!).

In addition, the Copper Age individuals from Popova zemlja represent an early presence of people with steppe-associated ancestry in this region, who would have co-existed with pre-steppe Copper Age individuals only 60 km away at Vučedol2.


Here we have another indication (no bulletproof evidence, but still) for Vucedol/Cotofeni ancestry coming from the Carpathian basin sphere to Bulgaria EIA!

I20180 (10 cM) and I20181 (8,9 cM) both share segments with pop39. The only issue here is, that this could be older (say Yamnaya). But in fact, POP39 is the top match for one and the 4th top for the second!

Incidently, POP39 is also one of the closest matches for Himera E-V13 individuals:
Distance to: North_Thracian-Dacian:ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
0.02762275 Hungary_LaTene:I18493
0.02919892 Serbia_BA_Maros:I23209
0.03016022 Croatia_Popova_CA.SG:POP39_noUDG.SG
0.03074397 Serbia_BA_Maros:I17912
0.03099153 Slovenia_Emona_Roman.SG:R10467.SG
0.03126834 Hungary_LateAvar:SZKT-265.SG
0.03132543 Hungary_EBA_Protonagyrev:I7043
0.03153367 Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.03189381 Hungary_IA_LaTene:I18528
0.03206470 Hungary_MidAvar:SZM-38.SG
0.03211442 Czech_LBA_Knoviz_o3:I13794
0.03219674 Croatia_MBA:I5080
0.03225646 Montenegro_MLBA:I13169
0.03228628 Hungary_LateAvar:ARK-38.SG
0.03239793 Croatia_BA:I18748
0.03249283 Czech_BellBeaker_oAnatolia1:PRU001
0.03257974 Hungary_IA_LaTene:I18834
0.03261968 Hungary_IA_LaTene:I18529
0.03266257 Albania_BA_IA:I14690
0.03272750 Hungary_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03288711 Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I16803
0.03299303 Hungary_Langobard_o2:SZ28
0.03319737 Croatia_MBA_Cetina:I11843
0.03323676 Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean.SG:MOK31.SG
0.03389971 Hungary_LaTene:I18491

I really wondered about that before, but now it makes complete sense, if that hypothesis (Vucedol-Cotofeni ancestry -> Eastern Carpathian basin/sphere survival -> migration South) holds up.

And this kind of profile is what we can expect for Vucedol-Cotofeni, pretty much what POP39 shows. Consider also, that this kind of admixture can be the result of first generation gene flow, even if it was new to one site. This should be a more consolidated or at least intermixed source population for POP39.

By the way, this completely annihilates the idea of the Mezocsat and Vekerzug samples being new West Balkan arrivals, which was a dead horse from the start, considering the cultural context, which is clearly Daco-Thracian influenced.

We should all keep an eye on Vucedol and Cotofeni, because these are the likely source populations. In the Carpathain basin, especially its Western half, the high WHG arrival of Kisapostag was a different factor which distorts things. Especially since we have so many samples from the Western sphere (Danubian), vs. so few from Transtisza and practically none from Western and Northern Romania.
 
There is a misconception that by Urnfield it is generally meant Central European Urnfield which is not true and Cavazotti's paper explains clearly regarding whole Urnfield complex:

In general, it can be concluded that the first groups meeting all essential criteria of the urnfield package started in the central Balkans between the nineteenth and seventeenth centuries BC (northeastern Serbia). In the first half of the 2nd millennium BC, several local groups along the Danube (DGŽ, Belegiš 1) and in the Morava valley (Paraćin, Brnjica) also fully accepted and implemented cremation in urn graves, but with different regional traditions regarding the grave constructions. Except for scattered cremation graves in some of the local groups of the time around 2000 BC (Glasinac, Belotić-Bela Crkva and Cetina), the concept of cremation was completely rejected by Bronze Age groups in the Dinaric Alps or in the western Balkans. The start and spread of the urnfield phenomenon at the beginning of the Late Bronze Age (fourteenth/thirteenth centuries BC) primarily influenced the regions between the Rivers Sava, Drava and Danube. Cremation graves with urns became the standardized burial custom, yet again with considerable regional peculiarities (Virovitica/Barice-Gređani group). At the same time, cremation was radically rejected during the Middle and Late Bronze Age of the Dinaric Alps, regardless of specific cultural or regional groups.



Garla-Mara or Dubovac Zuto Brdo evolved into Insula Banului in EIA, Babadag evolved likely from Tei/Coslogeni or similar cultures from Lower Danube and Psenichevo was the more southern-most variant of these Balkan-Carpathian groups, the one with the most Aegean/Anatolian connection.

But i also believe that Channelled-Ware complex was E-V13 as well and Gava-Holigrady was in fact formed by southern Belegis-Gava II migrants, and they had deeper connection, or same bronze age origin with Stamped-Ware. As i noted early, their Bronze Age origin likely resided between Oltenia and Balkan/Haemus Mountains with Danube sitting in the middle.
 
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Well, I think that Gáva descends rather from Suciu de Sus than Belegis I. But even if we are talking about specifically Central European elements in the Balkan Urnfield spread, most to all of it came from Gáva-Holigrady and Belegis II-Gáva, not from the Celtic-like people of the Middle Danubian Urnfield group!

That's the big factor everybody needs to keep in mind: In the Balkans, the Urnfield package was spread by East Carpathian locals!

First in an archaic form by groups like Belegis I, Brnjica, Paracin (all Vatin derived rather) and Verbicoara-Tei, Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna (closer to Wietenberg, Glina-Schneckenberg derived?).

Secondly the fully developed package by Gáva-Holigrady and Belegis II-Gáva, Channelled/Knobbed Ware.

The most important innovation of the more developed package were the Reutlingen and Riegsee type slashing swords (Naue II in the wider sense) and the long lances with casted spearheads. Both being spread from different innovative production centres, but for the Balkans the most important was from the Upper Tisza (Gáva) going down the Tisza to the Danube and the Olt, and from there the Danube down (lower danube) and Morava-Vardar valleys into the Balkans.

They spread a Proto-Hoplite type warrior, equipped with strong but not excessive (like late Mycenaean) armour, long lances, Naue II swords, round shields and specific arrowheads for the archers too. You can see on the map that Belegis II-Gáva kind of spilled these weapons into the Balkans, and that despite the Gáva-related groups producing less and less hoards (lack of material?) in the Balkans, compared to their homelands (Upper Tisza, Transylvania, Banat).

Here is an interesting paper on the Naue II/Reutlingen and Riegsee type swords which spread from Gáva in Belegis II-Gáva expansion zones down the Morava-Vardar river valleys:

During the Ha A1 period or the 12th /11 th century
BCE, the area of the West Morava Valley displayed
certain changes in material culture, both regarding the
pottery and the metal objects, both indicating the terri-
tory of Pannonia and Central Europe. Of particular
importance is the site of Konopljara, which yielded
pottery attributed to the Gava II–Belegiš group and a
mace-head pin. The published sword originates from
the vicinity of the site, which, when taken together,
raises the question of prolonged influences in this
area, or possibly the presence of populations from the
north of the Sava and Danube rivers, especially con-
sidering the find of such a sword so deep in the south.


It remains unknown how the sword from the West
Morava riverbed found its way to a region far from its
home territories. Unfortunately, this and numerous
other questions will remain open until new finds from
enclosed contexts, absolute dates and the provenance
analyses of raw materials from the so-called Central
European types of bronze jewellery and weapons
are
available. On the other hand, new finds of swords with
fully cast hilts from the hinterland of the Balkans are
being recorded,76 as well as other metal finds such as
mace-head pins, bronze sickles, flame-shaped spear-
heads, Reutlingen swords, etc., whose origin should be
sought in the territories of Pannonia and Central Eu-
rope.77 The distribution of the aforementioned bronze
objects, when compared to the distribution of chan-
nelled pottery, displays a certain degree of regularity,
which was, it seems, short-lived with few specific ar-
chaeological features from several excavated sites.



Therefore Channelled Ware being directly associated with the spread of weapons, tools, jewelry and other material cultural objects and customs of Urnfield-type/Central European character. Belegis II-Gáva/late Belegis III was simply the agent of the same block which moved deeper into the South than others, which moved East (like Holigrady-Granicesti).

These items are not coming directly from a context associated with Vatin, or even early Belegis, but from Gáva influenced/overtaken late Belegis II-Gáva. And they spread from the Danube South, very far to the South, down to the Aegean even.

And this is, beyond doubt, the main movement associated with the big LBA-EIA (1300-1000 BC) expansoin of the Northern E-V13 branches. There is no other group or event having the same timing and right size, which could account for it. The correlation is perfect for an association with Gáva-related Channelled Ware (including Southern groups like Belegis II-Gáva and Vartop).

Look especially at Fig 12: You can see that the Upper Tisza Riegsee type of Naue II slashing swords being most common in the South in the core Belegis II-Gáva territory.

I mean the dating of the possible import sword which was travelling through Urnfield networks is just spot on:
With the other bronze swords of the so-called Central European type in the
territory of the Balkans (Riegsee and Reutlingen), the sword from the bed of the West Morava river certainly represents the herald
of changes that occurred during the Late Bronze Age in parts of the Mediterranean and its hinterland. It should be highlighted
that this sword represents the first example of this type recorded south of the Sava and Danube, with a quite narrow dating,
to a period of 1200–1100 BC.

That's exactly when the Northern E-V13 branches explode (CTS9320, FGC11451, L241, Y3183). This is 100 % associated with the new warrior type with Naue II swords and long lances marching South. The only remaining question is where they started: Was the initial starting point the Upper Tisza-Transylvania, or where they situated further South and just adopted the new customs to successfully use them when expanding from Belegis/Belegis II-Gáva further, deeper into the Balkans, from the Danubian zone.

Source: https://doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2024/0350-02412474009F.pdf

The pattern is even more striking with Reultingen type swords:

The Reutlingen sword type, also known as Naue II/Cetona, emerged as a distinct form of weaponry during the BzD period, introducing an innovative technique suited for cutting, tearing, and stabbing.1 The origin of Naue II-type swords,2 also referred to as the Reutlingen type3 and the Cetona type,4 is traced to the Central European-Carpathian region or northeastern Italy.5

Note they appeared basically at the same time in Gáva, Middle Danubian Urnfield and Protovillanovans. Like it travelled in light speed between the three main groups which started the spread of the UF package.
Reutlingen-swords-Fig5-Andjelka-Putica-2025.jpg


Note also the lack of finds in the area between the Danube and Tisza - the borderzone between Middle Danubian UF and Gáva.

Source:

We know that Knobbed Ware in Thrace had those swords too, but we can't be sure why less were found (no local big production centres, lack of resources, so less to waste? Less of an impact and dispersion in general?). Most of the finds in Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva come from hoards, which implies these people could abandon them. In other contexts, despite religious ideas, they might have been deemed to valuable to be laid to rest in my opinion.

But all the other Channelled Ware areas show many finds. Especially two areas: Core Gáva (formerly Suciu de Sus) territory at the Upper Tisza and in Transylvania, as well as core Belegis II-Gáva territory.

There is also evidence for their usage in battle:
The markings found on the blades were compared with results from experimental tests conducted on various types of European swords.22 Traces of use were observed on seven fragments, which accounts for 50% of the total number. The V-notch, recognized as the clearest indicator of direct contact with another sword, was identified on three specimens located at the upper, middle, and lower parts of the blade (fig.4,4a;fig.5,5a;fig.6,6a).

 
I came across this doctoral dissertation by Ina Czyborra (2005) about the Pšeničevo group, which is usually grouped together with the one from Turkish Thrace known as Taşlıcabayır group.
https://etana.org/node/10708

The earliest phase of this group (Pšeničevo and Taşlıcabayır) already shows channeling or fluting on the pottery, while in the later stages the stamping method clearly predominates.

Mehmet Özdoğan is of the opinion that the Taşlıcabayır group appeared already in the Late Bronze Age, that it was not a local development, and that it had some material cultural similarities with a northern Transylvanian group from the Bistrita area in Romania.

It does seem likely that what we usually call the Gava horizon actually encompasses all these cultures which have various local names preferred by different local archaeologists but if we want to generalize be it Channeled-Ware, which also corresponds with the early appearance of E-V13.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...gu_and_the_early_use_of_the_channeled_pottery

I would still say the main formation zone was somewhere between Banat and Transylvania, stretching around the Orastie region and into central Transylvania. Personally, I lean more toward a Southern Carpathian rather than an Aegean origin.
 
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I came across this doctoral dissertation by Ina Czyborra (2005) about the Pšeničevo group, which is usually grouped together with the one from Turkish Thrace known as Taşlıcabayır group.
https://etana.org/node/10708

The earliest phase of this group (Pšeničevo and Taşlıcabayır) already shows channeling or fluting on the pottery, while in the later stages the stamping method clearly predominates.

Mehmet Özdoğan is of the opinion that the Taşlıcabayır group appeared already in the Late Bronze Age, that it was not a local development, and that it had some material cultural similarities with a northern Transylvanian group from the Bistrita area in Romania.

It does seem likely that what we usually call the Gava horizon actually encompasses all these cultures which have various local names preferred by different local archaeologists but if we want to generalize be it Channeled-Ware, which also corresponds with the early appearance of E-V13.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...gu_and_the_early_use_of_the_channeled_pottery

I would still say the main formation zone was somewhere between Banat and Transylvania, stretching around the Orastie region and into central Transylvania. Personally, I lean more toward a Southern Carpathian rather than an Aegean origin.

Great find. We have to keep in mind that even within Gáva in the narrower sense, there were regional groupings, most notably the Lapus II-Gáva zone which was by and large a more direct continuation of Suciu de Sus into Lapus into the Gáva period.

Another issue is that we can't say with certainty how much of a local continuity in specific areas, especially those of Belegis, Brnjica and Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna existed. We know that actual Gáva people came there and transitioned them to the fully developed Channelled Ware horizon, but on the other hand there are regional differences which persist, which could be explained by fusion or local persistence, at least in theory.

On top of that, and this is what really changed my mind on that, is that we have no overlap in the patterns of the main E-V13 branches, especially if comparing the solid, main central-Northern block, in particular but not exclusively E-CTS9320, E-FGC11451, E-L241, E-Y3183 with the Southern branches like E-BY5022. The split is very old (like before 2000 BC) and especially in the LBA-EIA transition, when Channelled Ware really took off, these central-Nortern core branches expanded just massively, while all the old branches, despite they must have been very widespread and numerous at this point, have close to zero participation.

It is also possible, in my opinion, that we deal with a "knock-on effect", like one group pushing another related group, while transmitting some admixture and innovations. This could have resulted in say an expansion of Northern groups into areas like Banat and Oltenia, of central groups into deeper into Serbia and Bulgaria, and the next groups pus

Some quotations:

Thepottery assemblage has not only close analogies in the so-called "knobbed ware" of TroyVII b 2, but also bears the characteristic features of the Late Bronze Age-Early IronAge culture complexes of the Balkans. Considering the geographical location of the site,on the way to the Sea of Marmara from the Balkans, the assemblage is of considerablesignificance for understanding the developments that took place in Thrace at the turn of the second millennium B.C. Although there is some controversy on the absolute dateof the Taşlıcabayır assemblage, as will be mentioned in some detail below, it is clearlywithin the time range of the Late Bronze Age, at a time when there is a major influx of elements or rather of people, from the Northern Balkans into the south². The firstarrival of these groups in Thrace seems to have taken place much before 14 th centuryB.C., but their penetration into Anatolia was much later, only at the time of Troy VIIb 2. It is often speculated that a later, but much more massive movement of these people resulted in the destruction of most of Anatolia, including Troy itself, and in the collapse of the Hittite Empire. Taşlıcabayir is the only excavated site of this period in eastern Thrace.
With the exception ofthe Alaca Höyük cauldron, all examples cited by Mellink, both as actual cups or sealimpressions, re from Early Bronze Age. However, she also mentions, using historicalreferences that the tradition of beer-sipping through tubes, continued into the Iron Age,and that it was also practiced by the Thracians, and she further quotes (Mellink 1969,p. 73): "It is possible that the origin of beer-making and beer-sipping through tubes, isnot Mesopotamian; ...Anatolia is an area where the drinking of beer is well attested... Xenophon desciribes... kraters filled with barley beer; large and smallreeds sood invitingly in the kraters. Archilochos, who knew that Thracians and Prygians drank beer through tubes..."

It is of interest to note that in some Late Bronze-Early Iron Age assemblages of Centraland Eastern Europe multi-spouted vessels were also in use; geographically the nearestknown example to Taşlıcabayır is from Bistrita, Romania, found together with agroup of Hallstatt wares (Petre and Vulpe 1983, p. 135, fig. 6:45).

In the course of our survey of Eastern Thrace and Marmara regions¹, the most frequent type of pottery that we came through was wares that are related to the Taşlıcabayırgroup, which were recorded in more than a hundred sites. However, their geographicdistribution is rather restricted, being confined to the region of the Istranca Mountainsincluding its southern flanks and to the area between Edirne-Havsa-Kırklareli and Vize.Particularly, in the vicinity of Edirne, at the confluence of the Meriç (Maritsa), Tuncaand Pravadi rivers, it was possible to find this type of pottery in any place that was suitablefor human occupation, indicating a high density of population in this area. Besides thesettlement sites, other remains of this period, including low burial mounds like Taşlıcabayırand the so called "dolmens" or megalithic passage-graves and chamber-tombs are alsonumerous in the same general area".

Whatever this may signify, it is clear that the pottery tradition, widely used from Central Europe down to the basin of the Ergene, was not prevailing neither in the region of the Bosphorus,nor along the coastal area of the Sea of Marmara.Both in the Gelibolu peninsula, on the European side of the Dardanelles (Özdoğan 1986) or on the Anatolian side of the Sea of Marmara (Özdoğan 1985) we have not been ableto find a single site, which might have any possible relation to the Taşlıcabayır group. Both of these areas have revealed a fair number of sites with typical pottery of Troy VI, and possibly of Troy VII a, which is followed by a total break in the artifactual sequence. On the basis of present evidence, it would not be too far fetching to conclude that, by the 12 th century B.C., the Sea of Marmara, with the exception of the Gelibolu peninsula, delimited the area of Anatolian dominance, may it be Ahhiyawa, Wilusa or any other state. All of these regions are evidently deserted by the time of Troy VII b2, seemingly due to a major wave of invasion, generally believed to be coming from the north.

This brings out another interesting problem: if the wave of invasion is coming from the north, from the Balkans via the route of Thrace, as there is no other way, what hap- pened to the invaders? To our knowledge, Thracian pottery is known from only two sites in Anatolia, Troy, where it occurs peacefully in layer VII b 2 together with pottery of local tradition, and at Manastır Mevkii¹², in the small island of Avşa, along the Anatolia coast of the Sea of Marmara. Nowhere else in Anatolia and in the Aegean, with the exception of Thasos, as mentioned above, this knobbed ware of the presumed invaders, a pottery which is rather easy to distinguish, has been recovered. If such amass influx of people from the Balkans, with a established tradition of pottery manufac- turing, would have occured, some traces of it would certainly have been recovered, even if we suppose that the population was nomadic.This leads to another question of major significance, the absolute date and duration of Troy VII b 2. Blegen's proposed dates for Troy VII b 2 are 1190-1100 B.C. (Blegen 1964, p. 174) on the basis of Mycenaean III C sherds occuring together with the knobb- ed ware. He further remarks (Blegen 1956, p. 146-147):

Like most of Central and Western Anatolia,there also seems to be a "dark age" in Northwestern Anatolia, where almost all of theknown sites indicate a substantial break in the occupation. On the other hand, in thecentral area of this pottery, that is, in the regions of Edirne and Kırklareli there is noindication of any break in the cultural sequence from c. 14 th upto 8 th century B.С.,or even later. In the back chambers of at least two dolmens, at Hacılar and at Vaysal,both lying north of Edirne¹, have revealed cord-impressed, fluted fragements of knobbed ware together with wheel-made pottery of the 8th century, indicating a continuityin the cultural tradition⁴. So it seems, whatever the cause of the destruction of Anatoliaat the turn of the 2 nd millennium B.C. may be, as if it is not due to the mass movementof the people using knobbed and cord-impressed wares; though, some of these have movedinto Anatolia, as evidenced in Troy and Manastır Mevkii, but so few that they havenot left a major long lasting impact anywhere.

Accordingly, to assign an exact date for the Taşlıcabayır assemblage is for the time being is not possible. Stylistically, it is closer to earlier phases of the corded ware, to the"Çatalka" and "Bulgarian Coastal Groups" as devised by Hänsel (Hänsel 1976, pl.29, XIII), then to the later Pseniçevo group. The best parallels of the Taşlıcabayır flutedjugs are again Sava in northeast Bulgaira (Todorova 1972, fig. 1:3-4, 2:3,4:2). Thepresence of a bowl in gray ware (Cup no. 2 A) and the lack of compicated cord-impresseddesigns, so common in other sites in Eastern Thrace, are also indicative of an early dateor the burial mound.


Note that we see a clear intrusion at the end of the LBA from first Brnjica, secondly Gáva-related Channelled Ware and latest the formation and influence from groups like Babadag for the South East. In the end, based on all the available evidence, I would suggest that the E-V13 larger scale population was breaking up already before 2000 BC, but remained in close contact within the Carpatho-Danubian cremation block. The real big first split happened when Verbicoara-Tei into Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna groups moved South.

The central-Northern core branches experienced very clearly a completely different level of expansion in the Transitional period (1300-900 BC wider, narrower 1200-1000 BC). not reflected by the main branches of the South.
 
A bit more on the E-V13 phylogeny and branching patterns:

To put things into context, E-FTT49, E-Z5018 was barely existing when E-BY5022 seems to have expanded all over the place. For what its worth, up to around 1800-1700 BC, E-Z5018 could been still a single lineage, in theory. At a time E-BY5022 must have occupied a larger swath of land and being very widespread for sure.

E-Z5018 was therefore, presumably, the dominant force in a rapidly and very aggressively expanding tribe, which started its run around 1800-1600 BC. This is exactly the time frame when Suciu de Sus was formed between Eastern Otomani and Wietenberg, which is what I would associate it with, espeically the E-S2979 main branch. E-S2979 had the following big founder branches in the Transitional Period:
E-FGC33621
E-A9479
E-FGC11451
E-L241
E-BY174450
E-S2972

Therefore it had 6 big founders for 1300-1000 BC, of which many had subsequent big founder events, further multiplying on a high level in that relatively short period of time.

By comparison, E-BY5022, which was, this must be stressed, much bigger in the EBA and MBA than E-FTT49/E-Z5018, way, way bigger, had not a single branch with 4 or more living descendant lineages from that time frame. Considering how small E-FTT49 was, when E-BY5022 was big already, and considering how many lineages it had, it is utterly inconceivable how they could have been in the same source population in the MBA-LBA. It is not possible.

To put it further into context, E-S2979 has 6 direct descendants around 1700-1600 BC, and out of these just 6 direct descending lineages emerge 6 main big founder lineages in the LBA-EIA transition. Even of the less successful, smaller lineages, a large fraction has a timing for its (smaller) expansion between 1300-1000 BC (like e.g. E-FT71103).

This is so fundamentally different from E-BY5022 and other Southern/Eastern Thracian branches like E-Y16729, E-FT7781, E-PH1246 which are both much older and appear to have been as big or bigger than E-FTT49/Z5018 in the EBA-MBA.

Actually, the pattern goes as far, as that they have a big expansion earlier on, when Z5018 didn't exist and its ancestor was barely surviving, and then growth AFTER the Transitional Period again. It almost looks like their growth was halted, stopped, basically, in the LBA-EIA transition.

So we have branches which expanded massively, on a grande scale in the LBA-EIA, and we have branches which grew earlier, which stopped growing and restarted to grow again AFTER the transition. That pattern being best explained by the expanding branches being actually disruptive for the non-expanding ones, and the expanding branches starting from a separate population, isolated from the Southern-Eastern branches populations, being isolaed especially, with certainty in the later MBA-LBA (1800-1200 BC).

Yet those ancestors of the Southen and Eastern Thracians, which were on the fringe in the LBA, obviously, were not small in numbers but must have formed fairly big and well-established populations.

This is why I think at this point, that we need to think big and bigger, like that its not just this OR that, but this AND that group being Daco-Thracian and E-V13 dominated. E.g. it is not about whether Eastern Otomani-Wietenberg or Verbicoara-Tei were Daco-Thracian and E-V13 dominated, but I think both were.

I'm less sure about the Vatin-derived block, but it is quite likely that Belegis, Paracin and Brnjica too were E-V13 dominated and Daco-Thracian. These groups were likely all E-V13 and Daco-Thracian, they just were dominated by different branches. Like it is pretty obvious to me that the FTT49/Z5018 group must have been the most Northern of the larger E-V13 (sub-) populations, therefore likely being associated with Eastern Otomani-Wietenberg into Suciu de Sus/Cehalut/Igrita into Lapus/Gáva.

The fact that the Northern expansion might have been disruptive for the Southern/Eastern branches could mean many things, but it could mean they raided them, instead of replacing them, or taking over in specific regions, instead of all regions, or just influencing them and disrupting the networks initially. E.g. the tendency towards the Eastern/Southern/fringe branches in the South and East is in the Iron Age so strong, that they must have prevailed on the long run, with little impact from the North/Western groups

In any case, I wanted to stress this pattern in the E-V13 phylogney once more, because it is absolutely important to understand both the size and structure of E-V13 in the Bronze Age. The demographic growth and massive expansion of E-Z5018/S2979 was a phenomenon separated from the Southern and Eastern main branches evolution. It was a completely different phenomenon, which only indirectly and rather disruptively influenced the Eastern-Southern groups.

This being indeed best explained by Gáva-related Channelled Ware having such an impact on the fringe, as it obviously did, we see it in the archaeological record with the expansion of Channelled Ware, but we also see signals of local continuity, which could be best explained by groups from say ZPC and possibly Belegis-Brnjica surviving, being only influenced, temporarily cut back (?) by the Gáva-expansion.

In any case, the big Northern expanding branches couldn't live together, in one and the same population, with the Southern/Eastern branches in the MBA-LBA, that's not possible.

The interesting pattern of E-Z5017 is, that it is both an early AND a Transitional Period expansive group. This suggests to me that E-Z5017 was in a central position, which did participate in the Gáva-related Channelled Ware expansion in the Transitional Period, but mainly with their main branch of E-CTS9320. It is therefore, also with its growth pattern, positioned between E-Z5018 and the Southern E-V13 branches.
I can only speculate where it lived, but I think it was either with E-FTT49/Z5018 in the North (Suciu de Sus, Cehalut, Igrita, Transylvanian Noua etc.) or in the Vatin-Belegis dominated groups in and around the Banat and it surely was later in the Bosut-Basarabi cultural formation.
 
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The Thracian dolmen is actually just the inner stone structure of the earthly tumulus which wrapped the dolmen but nowadays most of the earthly tumulus part was destroyed and the dolmen stone structures are still intact, it is a very specific trait appearing in 1200 - 800 B.C and has no prior explanation nowhere in Balkans, Carpathians or Anatolia, it is likely just an evolution of solely the South-East Thracian groups in contact with Anatolian groups where the rock-cut structures are encountered.

It is indeed remarkable that early Psenicevo culture has flutes/channeling and in mid to end stages they replace it with stamping, this quite likely indicates that stamping was just a natural evolution of channeling/knobbed cultural groups.

What is left is for archaeogenetics to either confirm or refute this, personally i would be surprised if E-V13 was from North Aegean and Central Balkans and not from around Danube and Balkan-Carpathian corridor.
 
The Thracian dolmen is actually just the inner stone structure of the earthly tumulus which wrapped the dolmen but nowadays most of the earthly tumulus part was destroyed and the dolmen stone structures are still intact, it is a very specific trait appearing in 1200 - 800 B.C and has no prior explanation nowhere in Balkans, Carpathians or Anatolia, it is likely just an evolution of solely the South-East Thracian groups in contact with Anatolian groups where the rock-cut structures are encountered.

It is indeed remarkable that early Psenicevo culture has flutes/channeling and in mid to end stages they replace it with stamping, this quite likely indicates that stamping was just a natural evolution of channeling/knobbed cultural groups.

What is left is for archaeogenetics to either confirm or refute this, personally i would be surprised if E-V13 was from North Aegean and Central Balkans and not from around Danube and Balkan-Carpathian corridor.

Concerning Channelled/Fluted/Knobbed Ware, the crucial part is we have three main influences and groups coming into the later Psenichevo area:
- Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna (derived from Verbicoara-Tei/Fundeni-Govora)
- Brnjica (derived from Vatin/Belegis-related groups)
- Knobbed Ware (influences from Gáva, Vartop and Belegis II-Gáva)

Plus Garla Mare and Coslogeni-steppe influences as minor additions.

Therefore it doesn't matter whether Psenichevo was founded by Gáva-related clans or not, because even if not, they were still coming from the North Balkan-Carpathian sphere and not from the Aegean. All the really important influences came from the North - but the Greek-Anatolian ones. There are people claiming that E-V13 came from Anatolia, but the evidence for that is even worse.

It is about which exact group formed the South Thracians of the influences mentioned, and either one/multiple of them were E-V13 dominated or even all of them. In the region South of the Balkan mountains the population density was very weak and there was even less space for such isolated core populations, like we can identify them in the E-V13 phylogeny (like North vs. South groups etc.).
 
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So we have a new Iron Age sample from Nineveh, he doesn't look from the coalition of attackers (Scythian, Cimmerian-like) rather a native of Nineveh and outlier in the direction of Levant. Interesting.

Also, yet another E-V13 sample nearby Crimea, impressive E-V13 occurrence so far in Bosporan Kingdom, in fact so far E-V13 is almost entirely dominant at the samples revealed so far from Bosporan Kingdom?! CTS9320 was not from Ambrakia Epirus rather Tenea Peloponessus, the Ambrakia is still revealed down to E-M78, we do not know the downstream.
 
The really big news to me, the first real data, is from the context of Sântana de Mureș. I mean in a overwhelmingly Germanic environment, E-V13 is at the same level as I-M253, unless its a big surprise and disappointment and they are all from the same lineage (unlikely) or non-E-V13 E1b (even more unlikely). Because either they are local Daco-Romans, local Dacians, or incoming Dacians and Daco-Carpi from the North and North East. And that's really the first evidence for this kind of presence and the subclades, which we hopefully get, should be really interesting. Because those samples are really from the Dacian core.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0FDU-vbpWWnIze2izaX9Ii
 
I have a question regarding the presence of E-V13 in Epirus based on Akbari et al. (2026). If I understand correctly, “Greece_BAEpirus?” refers to Bronze Age samples. If that is the case, 35 out of 88 samples (about 39%) belong to haplogroup E (Y-DNA), with the majority being E-V13. Does this suggest that the population of Epirus may have had an origin related to Thracian groups?
https://casperhub.dev/Akbari2026/
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Keep in mind that these are just guesses based on rough similarity by the creators. We don't have the actual context of these samples. And e.g. https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT64983/tree is an Iron Age branch, so by itself unlikely to be from the BA. Even more, in the BA Epiros won't be E-V13 dominated at all.

Rather, we see a general similarity from the South Eastern Carpathain sphere down to Macedonia in the Iron Age and partly earlier, like the Mygdalia samples from the Peleponnes, with roughly similar autosomal proportons of ANF : Steppe like the Thracians.

Therefore take any such assignments before we got the actual context of these samples with a grain of salt.
 
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