European R-M269 older than Yamnaya Culture?

[Alex Repin]

Question for the experts. The article "Genetic differentiation between upland and lowland populations shapes the Y-chromosomal landscape of West Asia" // Hum Genet (2017) 136:437–450 (researchgate.net/314493668) states that the European R-M269 does not come from the Yamnaya population. Apparently, R1b carriers came to Europe via Africa and Gibraltar before apparently even before the formation of the Yamnaya Culture (The Conquest of "Old Europe" and Central Europe (4200-2500 BCE)// .academia.edu/5965973). But is it possible that they came to Europe without " Yamnaya’s Markers" during the second phase of migration (The Conquest of Western Europe (2500-1200 BCE)) from some isolated enclave not associated with the Yamnaya Culture?

 

[MOESAN]

Question for the experts. The article "Genetic differentiation between upland and lowland populations shapes the Y-chromosomal landscape of West Asia" // Hum Genet (2017) 136:437–450 (researchgate.net/314493668) states that the European R-M269 does not come from the Yamnaya population. Apparently, R1b carriers came to Europe via Africa and Gibraltar before apparently even before the formation of the Yamnaya Culture (The Conquest of "Old Europe" and Central Europe (4200-2500 BCE)// .academia.edu/5965973). But is it possible that they came to Europe without " Yamnaya’s Markers" during the second phase of migration (The Conquest of Western Europe (2500-1200 BCE)) from some isolated enclave not associated with the Yamnaya Culture?

With the data we have at hand todate, this coming of Y-R1b into Europe from Africa is a big fairy tale. R1b-V88 was allover Europe since Mesolithic, and in Steppes too, and its presence in Africa seems linked to some introgression of Neolithic Neareasterners breeders. ATW the M269 dispersing into western Europe seems having found place from East to West from some place of eastern Europe, based on the ancient and current localisation of its subclades. What doesn't exclude eastwards and southwards propagation from this unprecise place of origin. Maybe new findings could change this scheme???

 

[MOESAN]

That said, yes, M269 is surely a bit older than Yamnaya, he is supposed to be born around 12000 BC but widely spread only about 4300 BC, so not very earlier than Yamnaya after the development of its subclade L23.

 

[Alex Repin]

That said, yes, M269 is surely a bit older than Yamnaya, he is supposed to be born around 12000 BC but widely spread only about 4300 BC, so not very earlier than Yamnaya after the development of its subclade L23.

Yamnaya Culture - 3300 BC. This is 1000 years later than 4300 BC. That's a LOT for migrations...

 

[MOESAN]

Yamnaya Culture - 3300 BC. This is 1000 years later than 4300 BC. That's a LOT for migrations...

I wrote 'spread' but I meant 'had a rapid demographic development'; that doesn't mean migration to far places by force.
And Yamnaya culture as other ones is not born in a while...

 

[Alex Repin]

I wrote 'spread' but I meant 'had a rapid demographic development'; that doesn't mean migration to far places by force.
And Yamnaya culture as other ones is not born in a while...

Here the question arises about ethnogenesis, which has its own stages of development. Usually, 1000 years after the emergence, the ethnos is in the stage of degradation...

 

[Silesian]

https://amtdb.org/sample/I0443

Yamnaya-I0443--- L23+(Z2103-L51-)
[COLOR=#999999 !important]formed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp[/COLOR]info
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/

According to Mallory (1999), "The origin of the Yamnaya culture is still a topic of debate," with proposals for its origins pointing to both Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog.^[15] The Khvalynsk culture (4700–3800 BC)^[16] (middle Volga) and the Don-based Repin culture (c. 3950–3300 BC)^[17] in the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe, and the closely related Sredny Stog culture (c. 4500–3500 BC) in the western Pontic-Caspian steppe, preceded the Yamnaya culture (3300–2500 BC).^[18][19]Further efforts to pinpoint the location came from Anthony (2007), suggesting from his research that the Yamnaya culture (3300–2600 BC) originated in the Don–Volga area at c. 3400 BC,^[20][2] preceded by the middle Volga-based Khvalynsk culture and the Don-based Repin culture (c. 3950–3300 BC),^[17][2] arguing that late pottery from these two cultures can barely be distinguished from early Yamnaya pottery.^[21] Earlier continuity from eneolithic but largely hunter-gatherer Samara cultureand influences from the more agricultural Dnieper–Donets II are apparent.

He argues that the early Yamnaya horizon spread quickly across the Pontic–Caspian steppes between c. 3400 and 3200 BC:^[20]

Yamnaya and elshanka pottery,

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ed_on_the_materials_of_the_elshanka _culture
The early neolithic pottery of the volga-ural region (based on the materials of the elshanka culture)

This article deals with the technologies of pottery-making used by the population of the Volga-Ural region during the Early Neolithic. The analyzed assemblage includes 344 specimens of ceramics (conventionally regarded as separate vessels) from 12 sites of the Elshanka culture (end of the 7th–6th millennium BC). The research method elaborated by A.A. Bobrinsky is based on binocular microscopy, use-wear analysis, and physical modeling. The origins and evolution of the Early Neolithic ceramic traditions in the Volga-Ural region and the role of their admixture are discussed.

 

[Alex Repin]

Every time I see the words “hunter-gatherer culture” in this thread, the question arises: could they form any socio-religious communities? This requires at least either agriculture or pastoral nomadism. It is doubtful that such a serious socio-religious community as the Yamnaya culture could have formed from small primitive tribes of “hunters and gatherers”, people from the steppes of the Black Sea region and the mountains of the Caucasus. Yes, even with ceramics, which is already a sign of a developed society. Moreover, we see a clear influence of the expansion of Uruk from Mesopotamia. Hunters and gatherers also lived there??? Nonsense, the first cities ALREADY arose there. And until now in serious articles there is this idiotic term "hunters and gatherers" from the mountains and steppes. Or is it such a convention adopted among paleogenetics?

 

[Alex Repin]

Otherwise, the question arises: by whom, for what and under what conditions were these mythical "hunters and gatherers" included in the Yamnaya culture??? The stupidity of this term in articles on paleogenetics is simply obvious! This question is also important for understanding how the nominative language of the "mega-collective" emerged from ergative "macro-collectives". One thing is clear, there were no "hunters and gatherers" in the steppes and mountains during the formation of the Yamnaya Culture!!!

 

[Silesian]

Pottery is one of the oldest human inventions, originating before the Neolithic period, with ceramic objects such as the Gravettian culture Venus of Dolní Věstonice figurine discovered in the Czech Republic dating back to 29,000–25,000 BC,^[2] and pottery vessels that were discovered in Jiangxi, China, which date back to 18,000 BC. Early Neolithic and pre-Neolithic pottery artifacts have been found, inJōmon Japan (10,500 BC),^[3] the Russian Far East (14,000 BC),^[4] Sub-Saharan Africa (9,400 BC),^[5] South America (9,000s–7,000s BC),^[6] and the Middle East (7,000s–6,000s BC).

Late Glacial hunter-gatherer pottery in the Russian Far East:Indications of diversity in origins and use

https://baikalproject.artsrn.ualber...020_QSR_Early-Pottery-Function-Amur-River.pdf

During the Late Glacial, hunter-gatherers began using ceramic cooking containers in three separategeographic regions of East Asia: China, Japan and in the Russian Far East.....The Goncharka-1 is the best-studied site of the Osipovka Culture, and is located ca. 20 km upstream from the city of Khabarovsk,on the high terrace situated ca. 20 m above the main river(Shevkomud and Yanshina, 2012). The lower horizons (layers 4e5)of the site represents the earliest stage of the Osipovka Culture andhave 14C dates on charcoal that fall between 12,500-12,055 yr BP,that is, 15,070-13,750 cal BP...Early pottery starts to appear at a number of sites along theAmur River between ca. 16,200 to 10,200 cal BP. Exactly how thispottery was actually used has long been the focus of intensivedebate. Our study provides the first direct evidence of early potteryuse in the Late Glacial of the RFE, and clarifies which kinds of resources were processed. The results confirm some expectations.

 

[Silesian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_historic_inventions

[h=3]Upper Paleolithic to Early Mesolithic[edit][/h]50 ka has been regarded by some as the beginning of behavioral modernity, defining the Upper Paleolithic period, which lasted nearly 40,000 years (though some research dates the beginning of behavioral modernity earlier to the Middle Paleolithic). This is characterized by the widespread observation of religious rites, artistic expression and the appearance of tools made for purely intellectual or artistic pursuits.

• 36 ka: Weaving – Indirect evidence from Moravia^[51][52] and Georgia.^[53] The earliest actual piece of woven cloth was found in Çatalhöyük, Turkey.^[54][55]

• 26 ka: Ceramics in Europe^[60]

• 16 ka: Pottery in China^[63]

 

[Alex Repin]

The difference between the ceramic dishes made in the Paleolithic and the Neolithic is colossal. In the latter case, we have a stable industrial production, where ceramics were fired in kilns in large quantities. The same furnaces later came in handy in metallurgy... Therefore, history is divided into ceramic and pre-ceramic periods. In the latter case, the ceramics are made somehow, and in the best case they are burnt at the stake. Therefore, if you find well-made ceramics in the Middle Stog, Khvalynsk Culture, you can't say that they were hunters and gatherers. I repeat once again, this term of paleogenetics for the Eneolithic period is nonsense, and misleading!

 

[MOESAN]

Every time I see the words “hunter-gatherer culture” in this thread, the question arises: could they form any socio-religious communities? This requires at least either agriculture or pastoral nomadism. It is doubtful that such a serious socio-religious community as the Yamnaya culture could have formed from small primitive tribes of “hunters and gatherers”, people from the steppes of the Black Sea region and the mountains of the Caucasus. Yes, even with ceramics, which is already a sign of a developed society. Moreover, we see a clear influence of the expansion of Uruk from Mesopotamia. Hunters and gatherers also lived there??? Nonsense, the first cities ALREADY arose there. And until now in serious articles there is this idiotic term "hunters and gatherers" from the mountains and steppes. Or is it such a convention adopted among paleogenetics?

HG people moved on very long distances in Paleolithic and if later, maybe, their moves diminished in length, it doesn't exclude long distances runnings of ideas and myths through successive contacts. Just an observation, I have no cristal bowl at hand.

 

[MOESAN]

Every time I see the words “hunter-gatherer culture” in this thread, the question arises: could they form any socio-religious communities? This requires at least either agriculture or pastoral nomadism. It is doubtful that such a serious socio-religious community as the Yamnaya culture could have formed from small primitive tribes of “hunters and gatherers”, people from the steppes of the Black Sea region and the mountains of the Caucasus. Yes, even with ceramics, which is already a sign of a developed society. Moreover, we see a clear influence of the expansion of Uruk from Mesopotamia. Hunters and gatherers also lived there??? Nonsense, the first cities ALREADY arose there. And until now in serious articles there is this idiotic term "hunters and gatherers" from the mountains and steppes. Or is it such a convention adopted among paleogenetics?

I suppose the terminology of "Hunters-Gatherers" in paleogenetic when speaking of Steppes cultures period refers to pop's where the autosomal making of ancient HG's was remained the same or almost the same. Even if the cultural stage was no more based on hunting and gathering! After mixing, the term HG refers only to this genetic input, and not on cultural aspect.

 

[Alex Repin]

I suppose the terminology of "Hunters-Gatherers" in paleogenetic when speaking of Steppes cultures period refers to pop's where the autosomal making of ancient HG's was remained the same or almost the same. Even if the cultural stage was no more based on hunting and gathering! After mixing, the term HG refers only to this genetic input, and not on cultural aspect.

Apparently yes, this is a convention that can mislead a non-professional ...

 

[Alex Repin]

HG people moved on very long distances in Paleolithic and if later, maybe, their moves diminished in length, it doesn't exclude long distances runnings of ideas and myths through successive contacts. Just an observation, I have no cristal bowl at hand.

Two ways are possible here. 1. Cultural induction, when, for example, the IE community R1a in different places became the successor of the Yamnaya Culture R1b. 2. When a community of cultural treggers R1b managed to spread its culture over huge distances, being in the minority among other peoples

 

[ThirdTerm]

The article "Genetic differentiation between upland and lowland populations shapes the Y-chromosomal landscape of West Asia" // Hum Genet (2017) 136:437–450 (researchgate.net/314493668) states that the European R-M269 does not come from the Yamnaya population

The paper claims that ancient Yamnaya samples only had the “eastern” haplogroup R1b-L23, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya still live in the Pontic steppe and that the ancient Yamnaya population was not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans. Haplogroup R1b-M269 was the dominant lineage of the Yamnaya-Afanasievo group in its R1b-Z2103 sublineage (4th millennium BCE). M269 is inferred to have a shared common ancestor in the 5th millennium BCE (PIE). The Bashkirs of southeast Bashkortostan carry M269* and L23* at 2.4% and 32.2%, respectively, with a high percentage of M73 (M269 sister branch) at 23.4%.

The Bashkirs R1b descend directly from the Bronze-age Proto-Indo-Europeans. The only place where both M73 and M269 are both common is around the Caucasus and Anatolia. Based on my theory of the PIE moving to the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic, the first steppe invaders would have belonged to both M73 and M269, although the latter would have been much more dominant. It is possible that all the subclades as far as S116 and even S28/U152 developed in the steppes before migrating to Europe. The Bashkirs could represent the last leftovers from these PIE R1b, who would later been overwhelmed by neighbouring R1a from further north and east.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26878.html

 

[Silesian]

Yamnaya+Afanasievo+Catacombe R1b-L23+ have a different distribution than R1a-Z93+
Yamnaya and Catacombe. R1b-L23+ occupied Sredny Stog(Середньостогівська культура) and covered an area from Carpathian-Balkans -Ukraine-Russia and Mongolia.

One of the sites most associated with this culture is Deriivka (Ukrainian: Деріївка, Russian: Дериевка), located on the right bank of the Omelnik, a tributary of the Dnipro, and is the largest site within the Serednii Stih culture complex, being about 2,000 square metres (22,000 sq ft) in area. The Eneolithic part of the Deriivka archaeological complex includes a settlement and a cemetery. Other Serednii Stih sites include Igren-8 and Molukhiv Bugor on the Dnipro River, as well as Oleksandia on the Oskil River in east Ukraine.

 

[Silesian]

Modern day R1b-Z2103 is mainly concentrated over the heavily fortified settlements in ruins of Sintashta-Arkaim(known for warriors with horse and chariot burials) -- the dominant ydna used to be R1a-Z93+ looks like it is R1b-M269 in modern day.

The Sintashta culture was previously dated to the period 2200–1800 BCE.^[9][10][11] In 2020 Ventresca Miller et al. still claimed a period of 2400–1800 BCE,^[12][13] based on 44 earlier C14 calibrated datings by the Russian Academy of Sciences, which some other researchers consider outdated. The culture is named after theSintashta archaeological site, in Chelyabinsk Oblast, Russia, and spreads through Orenburg Oblast, Bashkortostan, and Northern Kazakhstan.

 

[MOESAN]

The high density (very relative indeed) of an ancient subclade in recent times doesn't tell us where it was the denser in ancient time. Not only for people move, but also because it can show where a relatively not too niverous pop stayed,too tiny to produce a lot of new downstream SNP's. And the % are indicative only if they refer only to the same root (Y-R1b here) and not to the allover Y-haplo's. What isn't to say that the todate "high density" is by force far from the real source region.