Fall of the Western Roman Empire

Now if thats the case --- and that is the case;

than Pre-Roman Italy - Roman Italy - Post-Roman Italy ---- was always diverse from eachother;
as Historically and Archaeologically attested


with Post-Roman Italy (especially the South) being more Near East than before;


Botigué et al 2013
iberia.jpg
 
Fire Haired said:
Cato believed in traditional Roman laws and life style. The Greeks had been influencing Italic tribes before Rome even existed in 900bc. Cato and other Roman writers mentioned real Roman traditions that had been passed down. Romans did try to life by their old traditions Romans military strength is based on their military tradition. Rome used to be a little city that had to defeat all the other people in Italy and war was very important to them.

older Romans would have had that attitude towards Greek influence or just Mediterranean civilized influence. Some Roman writer idealized Germanic tribes because they where less civilized and more like a old fashioned Roman for example they cared about sexual sins unlike Greeks and modern Rome. Julies Caesar said that Gauls in the past where tougher fighters because they where less civilized and not indulged in luxuries.
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I know what Cato believed. My problem is that according to this view, Scipio Africanus (a so-called "philhellene" and Cato's political adversary) who was in many respects the exemplary Roman and did far more for Rome than Cato in terms of war, political activity and so on, wasn't a "real" Roman. I'm mentioning Scipio but you can add Titus Flamininus to say nothing of Marcus Aurelius or Hadrian. If these people are considered less "Roman" than Cato and his friends then I am not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

If by "older Romans" you're referring to Tacitus, he was first of all not an older Roman at all - he was writing when Rome and Roman culture in general were already thoroughly "bastardised" (around 100 AD). If you meant by "older" as in holding that imaginary set of "older" Roman values, I don't really know tbh.

Second, I do not have the text with me but Tacitus also wrote very negatively of what he thought was the Germanic addiction to gambling and drinking. I know all about his views on chastity but the whole picture Tacitus painted of Germanics is not particularly flattering and it is the whole picture that I am interested in. I do agree though (so I am not saying this to disagree with you, just to be more exact on what Tacitus believed) that in some respects he thought Germanic tribes were untainted by the corrupting influences of luxury and comforts (just like the early Latins).
 
Nobody1 said:
I agree;
the Near East influx most likely comes from the Roman Times;

---

I agree;
Sardines are the benchmark for Neolithic admixture;
Bronze-age Sardines cluster closest to/with ancient pre-Indo-European Minoans and
so does Modern-day Sardines with Neolithic Ötzi;

Hughey et al 2013 - Minoans
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/full/ncomms2871.html

---


Modern day Italians are genetically (haplogroups and admixture) diverse from each other;
with Sardines clustering in a world of their own


DiGaetano et al 2012
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759

fetchObject.action

Figure 2. SNP-Based PC of 1,014 individuals from the Italian dataset.
A. A Scatter Plot of the Italian population of the first two principal components obtained via R software (prcomp).
Individuals included belong to:
Northern Italy: black dots / Central Italy: red dots / Southern Italy: green dots / Sardinian: blue dots.
B. Italian population without the Sardinian-projected scatter plot of the first two principal components obtained via the R software (prcomp)


Nelis et al 2009
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005472

qxiz.png




It is proven that Italians didnt greatly inter-mix with each other - over the last 1,500 years
(end of Roman Empire)

Coop & Ralph et al 2013
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period.
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Italians never intermixed, they always saw themselves as different from each other. If it was not for Napoleon bringing down all the Italian states, there would have never been an italy. He ruined many nations/states. Turned all of Europe into nations of monarchs which led to the first world war.

Ancient Romans affiliated more closely with southerners instead of northers because the Northerners where classified as gallic people
 
zanipolo said:
Italians never intermixed, they always saw themselves as different from each other. If it was not for Napoleon bringing down all the Italian states, there would have never been an italy. He ruined many nations/states. Turned all of Europe into nations of monarchs which led to the first world war.

Ancient Romans affiliated more closely with southerners instead of northers because the Northerners where classified as gallic people
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Roman skulls were closer to Etruscan skulls from central Italy than to Samnite skulls from the south.

Source: Rivista di Antropologia Volume LVI (1969).
 
Vallicanus said:
Roman skulls were closer to Etruscan skulls from central Italy than to Samnite skulls from the south.

Source: Rivista di Antropologia Volume LVI (1969).
Click to expand...

Because some historians state the romans branched out of a southern etruscan tribe
 
the genetic history of Italy thing freaking awesome. All of the genetic parts of this website explain things in such a truthful and interesting way that relates to history wikpedia does not. I mean it really tells the history of Europe like with the migration maps. Please keep making more articles.

I really think u should do that for every country or region of Europe. Also maybe dont just do Y DNA's because that is not complete ancestry maybe also mention aust. DNA and mtDNA. Italians have a signficant amount of mid eastern only Greeks and sotheast Europeans have. Aust DNA shows that in the gobe 13 test 30-40% of their aust DNA is mid eastern.

this is my opinion on aust dna origin in Europe but specifically Italy in the globe13 test
Paloithic and Mesloithic

North Euro ancestor form came at some time in the Paleolithic age probably in between 30,000-55,000ybp through the caucus mountains or Anatolia was probably the only aust DNa group in Mesolithic and Paleolithic europe other could have existed but died out it aslo may be connected with Y DNa I and last glacial maximum migrations that repopulated europe. Defines being European aka family all Europeans trace back too. U can go on and say how it is related to other aust DNa like it iis in the Caucasin family which consts of South west asian- meditreaen and west asian - north euro also that west asian and north euro are very realted brothers west asian may repsent y dna J.

Neloithic

brought aust DNA med which was over 59% in two early pre Indo European farmers in Europe. Med was spread in Neolithic age and sardine have 71% which means they are probably very Neolithic and have been isolated genetically.
Neloithci age also brought most of Europea's west asian and southwest asian but in Italy it is much higher and higher the more south u go most liley mainly came in Greco roman age.

Bronze and Iron age

Indo Europeans migrating out of the steppes most likley had over 70% paloithic north euro. Just like modern non slavic populations in that area. they have mainly brown eyes just like remains from yamna cuture they speak a urlaic language and i am pretty sure yamna was conquered by uralics at somepoint so they are possible decendnts. Also yamna where european population based on skin color and other DNA tests so basically i think that means they where full of north euro for example like udmurts.

proto Germanic italo Celts made their way to western Europe from the steppe by 5,000-4,500ybp. Italo celts settle in Unetice culture then around austira ara Celts spread Italics form in the alps with urnfield culture become early Iron workers then conquer Italy from 3,200-2,800ybp. Most likley increased the amount of north euro in Italy which could explain why they have more than Sardine.

Greco Roman civilized age or u can include it with iron and bronze age

Italic tribes become connected with the civilized world in the meditreaen become Hellenized by Greeks. This puts them in connected with people from around syria and iraq. Which explains why west asian nd southwest asian is centered around italy and greece and why southern areas who also have high amunt of Y DNA J have the most. a very signifcant 30-40% in Italians according to globe13 test have west asian and southwest asian. based on percentages it most likey came from iraq syria area.
 
Maciamo said:
Have you read my new article on the Genetic history of the Italians ?
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Where it says at the bottom of your linked post about I, L and K*, most modern tests always place at least an idea of what definitely it was not by using a x in the bracket followed by a letter, at least this indicates they have done some testing.

Also, I note 15% of T in ibiza, followed by 18% of the latest G-L497( that I posted ) from ibiza, clearly indicates very ancient migrations
 
Autosomal distributions, haplogroup progressions, and the resulting phenotype values of what are now modern day Italy and Spain can all be neatly summed up by watching a few episodes of "Welcome Back, Kotter" from the 70's. Thank you and goodnight!
 
nordicquarreler said:
Autosomal distributions, haplogroup progressions, and the resulting phenotype values of what are now modern day Italy and Spain can all be neatly summed up by watching a few episodes of "Welcome Back, Kotter" from the 70's. Thank you and goodnight!
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if ur talking about me i never mentioned Spain. I said south Italians are traditionally darker than north Italians because they have more Y DNA J, west Asian and southwest Asian in aust dna tests, and are closer to the Mediterranean. So better chance of inter marraige with mid easterns in greco roman age.
 
Wasn't singling you out F.H., only trying to impart some humor in what can be a dry subject. Your ideas here actually pan out when looking at a map so I don't have any problems with them. Now watch some old sit-coms from the golden age of T.V. and lighten up a tad.
 
okay i will
 
Vallicanus said:
Roman skulls were closer to Etruscan skulls from central Italy than to Samnite skulls from the south.

Source: Rivista di Antropologia Volume LVI (1969).
Click to expand...

Charles Loring Brace - The Races of the Old World (1863)
The common Roman type, still seen among the peasantry, according to Dr. Wiseman, is a large, flat head, a low wide forehead, a face broad and square, short thick neck, and a short broad figure, such as is found in many of the antique representations of the Roman soldier.


Latium (Central Italy) - Alpinoid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit]
alpinelatium.png


Marche (Central Italy) - Dinaric - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit]
dinaricmarche.png



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Etruscans were a mix of Indo-European Italics and non-Indo-European Pelasgians; to begin with
Both in Etruscan as well as Roman cemeteries -
there are Brachycephalic and Dolichocephalic types;
clearly displaying the internal (un-mixed) diversity;


where as in the Po Valley (Ligurians - Umbrians) display a
uniformed (inter-mixed) Brachycephalic Alpinoid type;

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.
 
Only The Sopranos rule ! Best TV show ever ! all the rest than go eff themselves;

66352-Sopranos-gif-iTS4.gif


RIP James Gandolfini


even this is better than Kotter.......
 
Nobody 1 i doubt we know if the romans had a specfic skull type or body type. they where caucasins which is any one in europe, mid est, and north africa south asians also have caucasin skull tye, facial features, hair texture, and body hair but they are not caucasin by dna. Romans where orignally afamily in one city whoo where from italic tribes they where just plain italian not any diff from other italians. they where also european i doubt they had any diff skull shapes or whatever from europeans or other caucasins. but i have noticed Italian look which repents ancient roman art but i dont know doubt there is any connection
 
Vallicanus said:
Roman skulls were closer to Etruscan skulls from central Italy than to Samnite skulls from the south.

Source: Rivista di Antropologia Volume LVI (1969).
Click to expand...

Etruscans had many colonies also in Campania and Samnites were Central Italians from Abruzzo who briefly occupied parts of Campania.
 
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