G25 G25 imperial Greek shift in Greeks and Italians + a comparison with qpAdm

[brick]

I checked the Greek cluster from imperial Rome, they have no Italian Iron Age admix. No pseudo West Anatolian profile while the Imperial Rome average shows actual Iron Age Italian. All the arguments against my post is just "i can't believe it happened".

If you want to be taken seriously, and not as someone who is trying to impose his own truth, it would be good if you shared the coordinates of the samples you use as sources in your model. Can you share them, please?

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

If you want to be taken seriously, and not as someone who is trying to impose his own truth, it would be good if you shared the coordinates of the samples you use as sources in your model. Can you share them, please?

I literally posted them at the end of my original post. Why don't you people bother reading everything i say before commenting?

 

[brick]

I literally posted them at the end of my original post. Why don't you people bother reading everything i say before commenting?

For Antiquity_Greek I see only an average but not the samples used.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

For Antiquity_Greek I see only an average but not the samples used.

I literally showed in my post the Rome_Imperial samples i used for antiquity Greek. Those were the ones who clustered with imperial Greek West Anatolians so i renamed them to antiquity Greek.

 

[ihype02]

I checked the Greek cluster from imperial Rome, they have no Italian Iron Age admix. No pseudo West Anatolian profile while the Imperial Rome average shows actual Iron Age Italian. All the arguments against my post is just "i can't believe it happened".

Use Arm_LBA, Syria_MLBA and Latins you can get a good fit. Not you say this model is the accurate one but how do we know?

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Use Arm_LBA, Syria_MLBA and Latins you can get a good fit. Not you say this model is the accurate one buw how do we know?

Why would i use such old populations, a lot has happened since the Bronze Age. This is about the imperial era migration. There was no such big Armenian_LBA shift in Iron Age/classical Italy. It arrived during the Imperial period.

We know because we can track the changes from the Bronze Age -> iron age -> classical age -> imperial age. We can see when the shifts happen. They happened during Imperial rome.

Good fit does not mean good model.

 

[ihype02]

Why would i use such old populations, a lot has happened since the Bronze Age. This is about the imperial era migration. There was no such big Armenian_LBA shift in Iron Age/classical Italy. It arrived during the Imperial period.
We know because we can track the changes from the Bronze Age -> iron age -> classical age -> imperial age. We can see when the shifts happen. They happened during Imperial rome.
Good fit does not mean good model.

Where did 500,000 Latins in 100BC go?

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Where 500,000 Latins in 100BC go?

Just because you cannot believe something, it doesn't change the reality. The data clearly show that there is a massive shift from imperial West Anatolia.

Lower birthrates, huge migrations can shift demographics, why is it so hard for people to understand.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Why would i use such old populations, a lot has happened since the Bronze Age. This is about the imperial era migration. There was no such big Armenian_LBA shift in Iron Age/classical Italy. It arrived during the Imperial period.

We know because we can track the changes from the Bronze Age -> iron age -> classical age -> imperial age. We can see when the shifts happen. They happened during Imperial rome.

Good fit does not mean good model.

What you are saying, if I go back to the Antonio et al 2019 paper, is that those Iron Age and Imperial Age Romans fall under one of several clusters. the C7 cluster was the one with more Steppe (Central European), The C6 was the Central Mediterranean one stretching from Central Italy down to Malta over to Greece. The C5 cluster was the East Mediterranean cluster which would include in Imperial Rome the provinces of Asia (Anatolia), Galatia, Armenia, etc and the C4 Cluster would be Near East, Judea, Syria, (the Levant, etc).

Modern Southern Italians cluster with the C6 cluster in Antonio et al 2019, not the C5 cluster, some overlap and not the C4 cluster at all, which using your G25 would capture the admixture that you said totally shifted Southern Italians or replaced the genetic ancestry 70%-90%. No way in hades do I believe that. Sorry, just don't buy it.

 

[Jovialis]

Model them with Neolithic Greeks.


Neolithic Greek-like people have been in Apulia since 6000 BC. Which is why it shows up in Raveane et al. 2022. That matches archeology.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Just because you cannot believe something, it doesn't change the reality. The data clearly show that there is a massive shift from imperial West Anatolia.

Lower birthrates, huge migrations can shift demographics, why is it so hard for people to understand.

Here are my top 30 Dodecad distances which show a cluster with the C6 group documented by Antonio et al 2019. No way 70-90% shift from Iron to Imperial Roman period.

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
2.59038607	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
2.76190152	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
3.27177322	C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.34701359	C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
3.84983117	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
4.10471680	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
4.16370028	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
4.18976133	C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
4.32090268	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.54783465	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
4.57668002	C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
4.82952379	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
4.83867751	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
5.03103369	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
5.10995108	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
5.30245226	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropolis
5.32897739	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
5.43089311	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
5.46635162	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
5.50746766	C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.68175149	C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
5.70777540	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
5.90403252	C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.04601522	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
6.21821518	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
6.46672251	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R1544_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
6.74800711	C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R436_Palestrina
6.76732591	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
6.77646663	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
7.20115963	C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

 

[torzio]

These models do not imply direct ancestry, they only show the shifts. On the left i calculated indirect stuff from the proxies. I modelled Italians without South Slavic and Turkic and Greeks without Italy iron age Italy. The Antiquity Greek proxy are the Rome_Imperial samples without Levantine, Armenian, North African, Northern outliers. Basically only the Greek ones who cluster with Greek islanders/Anatolians are included, i also removed the ones that had some North African admix.

Before some of you claim that G25 is a "fraud", scroll down and see the Cypriot G25 results compared to qpAdm. They are the same. You have to remember that G25 is not meant for Mesolithic-Neolithic modelling, Neolithic G25 models are misleading but models with more recent stuff such as the models below are very accurate.

Almost all of the Eastern Imperial admixture in Italians seems to be directly from Greeks. I remember a paper was wrongly claiming that these people came from all over the Empire? Lol, they were just Greek West Anatolians. I checked all the Rome Imperial samples, most of them seem to be Greek West Anatolians and islander like, there were much more direct Greek West Anatolian samples in Imperial Rome than direct Levantine.

The shifts that happened over time in Rome vs modern Italian. The Imperial Greek profile was diluted a bit from North Italians and that formed the modern central Italian profile.

For the people that are spreading misinformation that the Imperial Greek profile existed in Sicily from the Bronze-Iron age and that it did not come from Anatolian Greeks or just Bronze Age Anatolians. As you can see, that is completely false. Dont mind the use of the 1000ad Slavic proxy, im just showing the shifts. There was no significant Anatolian Bronze Age in imperial Italy. Anatolia was already mixed between West and East in the Iron Age which recreated a similar profile to the Bronze Age Anatolians. Stop this nonsense. Just because a study fitted models with Anatolia BA, it does not make it true that Italians have literal direct Anatolia BA.

Comparing the shifts with qpAdm for the people claiming that G25 is fake. I used Cypriots because they are easier to model, without crazy high SE.

Same model but with a Slavic proxy. The G25 model is basically identical to qpADM

right = c('Mbuti.DG', 'Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG', 'Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Russia_MA1_HG.SG', 'Czech_Vestonice16', 'Morocco_Iberomaurusian', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Anatolia_Neolithic_6000_BC', 'Jordan_PPNB', 'Iran_GanjDareh_N', 'Croatia_MBA', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC', 'Mycenaean_Greek_1500_1050_BC', 'Minoan_Crete_2600_1700_BC', 'Turkey_Hellenistic_Halikarnassos', 'Latvia_BA', 'Russia_IA_Ingria.SG', 'Albania_1500_400_BC', 'North_Macedonia_500_100_BC')

left = c('Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon', 'Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG')

target = c('Greek_Cypriot')

results = qpadm(prefix, left, right, target, allsnps = TRUE)
results$weights
results$popdrop
--------------------------------------------------
P 0.157
  target        left                         weight     se     z
  <chr>         <chr>                         <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greek_Cypriot Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad      0.680  0.0828  8.21
2 Greek_Cypriot Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon 0.268  0.0654  4.10
3 Greek_Cypriot Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG   0.0523 0.0224  2.33
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
right = c('Mbuti.DG', 'Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG', 'Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG', 'Russia_MA1_HG.SG', 'Czech_Vestonice16', 'Morocco_Iberomaurusian', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Anatolia_Neolithic_6000_BC', 'Jordan_PPNB', 'Iran_GanjDareh_N', 'Croatia_MBA', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC', 'Turkey_Alalakh_MLBA', 'Mycenaean_Greek_1500_1050_BC', 'Minoan_Crete_2600_1700_BC', 'Anatolia_Central_Gordion_780_544BC', 'Turkey_Hellenistic_Halikarnassos', 'Latvia_BA', 'Russia_IA_Ingria.SG', 'Albania_1500_400_BC', 'North_Macedonia_500_100_BC')

left = c('Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad', 'Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon', 'Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG')

target = c('Greek_Cypriot')

results = qpadm(prefix, left, right, target, allsnps = TRUE)
results$weights
results$popdrop
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P 0.0386
  target        left                         weight     se     z
  <chr>         <chr>                         <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Greek_Cypriot Aegean_Imperial_1_200ad      0.725  0.0863  8.40
2 Greek_Cypriot Levant_BA_1900_1500_BC_Sidon 0.237  0.0676  3.50
3 Greek_Cypriot Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG   0.0384 0.0232  1.66
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The imperial samples i used.

ITA_Rome_Imperial:R66,0.111547,0.158423,-0.033187,-0.06783,0.002154,-0.026216,0.00094,-0.002538,-0.013703,0.025331,0.012991,-0.004196,-0.001041,0.00523,-0.022937,-0.014983,-0.005867,0.000507,0.004902,-0.015257,-0.005241,0.00272,-0.003451,0.00253,0.000958
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R69,0.120652,0.146236,-0.016593,-0.05168,0.004308,-0.019522,-0.0047,-0.007846,-0.021884,0.027882,0.000325,0.01079,-0.014271,-0.003853,-0.020087,0.007558,0.034161,0.003421,0.010559,0.006003,-0.008111,0.001855,-0.005916,-0.005422,-0.007185
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R71,0.10927,0.158423,-0.044123,-0.068153,-0.003693,-0.029841,0.001645,-0.00923,-0.013294,0.022051,0.001949,0.002698,-0.014123,0.003853,-0.020087,-0.011005,0.009648,0.002407,0.002137,0.005503,-0.004866,-0.00643,0.002588,0.007591,-0.003473
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R72,0.113823,0.145221,-0.033564,-0.073321,-0.003693,-0.030957,0.008695,-0.008538,-0.005931,0.028976,0.009256,0.005545,0.002676,0.002202,-0.010315,-0.002254,0.007432,0.002027,0.005908,-0.002501,0.000749,0.002968,-0.008504,-0.001566,0.006107
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R75,0.099026,0.153345,-0.037335,-0.070737,-0.002462,-0.029841,0.005875,-0.011769,-0.001227,0.016948,0.00682,0.002698,-0.005649,0.007569,-0.019137,0.002254,0.001695,0.000253,-0.001383,-0.007629,0.003619,-0.002102,-0.00493,-0.005181,0.008622
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R76,0.095611,0.142174,-0.042992,-0.064923,-0.011079,-0.015618,-0.006815,-0.007384,-0.007976,0.010934,0.004547,0.001349,0.005798,-0.009909,-0.012079,0.00358,0.026729,-0.008108,-0.002388,0.007003,-0.005116,0.004575,-0.003944,0.008073,-0.000359
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R78,0.113823,0.157407,-0.031301,-0.079458,0.002154,-0.03012,-0.000705,-0.007846,-0.007772,0.019317,0.002436,0.005095,-0.009366,0.008395,-0.013436,-0.017369,-0.002217,0.000253,0.010936,-0.006503,-0.007237,-0.000989,-0.006286,-0.000482,0.005389
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R81,0.108132,0.15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R50,0.100164,0.150298,-0.024136,-0.049742,0.008309,-0.009203,0.00141,-0.000692,-0.005113,0.014214,0.000974,0.002997,0.00223,0.005092,-0.003257,-0.012198,-0.009648,0.007601,0.006159,-0.008379,0,0.007419,0.001972,0.000602,0.001557
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R39,0.111547,0.142174,-0.022627,-0.065892,0.002462,-0.020638,-0.00141,-0.006923,-0.004295,0.028064,0.007795,0.004796,-0.005798,0.000138,-0.013843,0.000796,0.006519,0.001394,-0.000628,0.004002,-0.00262,0.000989,-0.00037,-0.006386,-0.000838
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R40,0.105855,0.151314,-0.023004,-0.060078,0.001539,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.004846,-0.012067,0.027882,0.007307,0.003447,-0.010555,0.000275,-0.017236,-0.000796,0.000261,-0.00076,-0.002388,-0.01113,-0.004742,0.000371,-0.013188,0.004338,-0.000359
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R41,0.095611,0.139128,-0.036204,-0.076551,0.004924,-0.026216,-0.00282,-0.005769,0.002863,0.023508,0.003248,-0.001199,0.001635,0.004404,-0.006379,0.000796,0.002347,-0.003294,-0.001634,-0.005503,-0.005989,0.000866,0.00037,-0.001205,0.003952
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R43,0.111547,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.067184,0.003693,-0.025379,0.00423,-0.006,-0.007976,0.029704,0.003248,0.011839,-0.014717,0.006881,-0.017101,-0.000663,0.017341,0.003167,0.005028,-0.000625,-0.010981,0.010881,-0.003204,0.010001,-0.00012
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R436,0.119514,0.145221,-0.016216,-0.044897,0.00954,-0.015897,-0.00376,-0.008307,0.001841,0.014214,0.003573,0.005695,-0.004162,-0.011285,-0.011536,0.00716,0.02021,0,0.00352,0.001626,-0.000873,0.010881,0.001109,0.003615,-0.000479
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R44,0.117238,0.167562,-0.028284,-0.070737,0.004616,-0.019522,0.001175,-0.006692,-0.003886,0.034807,0.006333,0.008243,-0.013379,0.001651,-0.009229,-0.004508,0.017211,-0.00038,-0.003268,-0.007003,-0.000873,0.000618,0.001479,0.008314,0.001437
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R1545,0.105855,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.065569,0.001231,-0.016733,-0.00141,-0.000923,-0.006136,0.019864,0.002436,0.003597,-0.007136,-0.000275,-0.015472,-0.015911,-0.008214,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.007629,0.000499,0.011747,-0.005176,0.005784,-0.007065
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R1548,0.112685,0.146236,-0.012822,-0.044574,-0.004616,-0.021196,0.004935,0.000231,-0.005113,0.012392,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.000892,-0.003303,-0.006515,0.006364,-0.000261,0.007475,0.002137,-0.00988,-0.013726,0.004822,0.008627,0.006025,-0.005149
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R128,0.118376,0.150298,-0.033187,-0.052326,-0.006463,-0.022311,0.001175,-0.011538,-0.018612,0.018953,0.005034,0.006294,-0.007433,0.014588,-0.019137,-0.012994,-0.007171,0.004561,0.003897,-0.013256,-0.003244,0.000618,0.005423,-0.000361,-0.008622
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R126,0.101303,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R123,0.10927,0.146236,-0.032432,-0.056202,0.008617,-0.030957,0.009635,-0.007615,-0.011862,0.025331,0.007307,0.006444,-0.007284,-0.000413,-0.012486,0.009944,0.015385,-0.005068,-0.004148,-0.010505,0.000499,0.003586,-0.004807,0.001807,0.001197
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R114,0.112685,0.146236,-0.018102,-0.051357,0.007078,-0.010319,-0.005405,-0.010384,0.000614,0.008565,-0.00341,0.01094,-0.003865,0.001376,-0.006107,-0.013789,-0.009648,0.005194,0.003897,-0.007504,-0.004367,0.006677,0.006532,0.003976,-0.000239
ITA_Rome_Imperial:R115,0.105855,0.145221,-0.02225,-0.065892,-0.001846,-0.01255,0.00188,0.002538,-0.00225,0.019317,0.002598,0.006294,-0.005054,0.001927,-0.011401,-0.001724,0.009127,-0.000253,0.003645,-0.011631,-0.007112,0.004328,-0.003821,0.004699,-0.003952

My qpAdm .ind file if you want to check the sample ID's
https://www.mediafire.com/file/w2icozps2prs847/v54.1_HO_public.ind/file

G25 calculator coordinates:
(You are not supposed to use them all at the same time in every model, to avoid overfits)

0.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc,0.1168583,0.1615369,-0.0058076,-0.0628773,0.0249687,-0.0261414,-0.0013631,-0.0052459,0.0069129,0.0428376,0.0066904,0.0106906,-0.017542,-0.0000091,-0.0188199,-0.0084416,0.0124039,0.0023565,0.0093184,-0.0054525,-0.0077447,0.0029513,-0.0023169,0.0010363,-0.0007903

8.South_Slavic_MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine,0.1261538,0.1409895,0.0422375,0.016796,0.0282102,0.0101332,0.0027025,0.0046537,-0.0020453,0.0018832,-0.0036267,-0.0018983,-0.001115,0.0106197,-0.0118078,-0.0003758,0.0085837,0.0021747,0.005866,-0.0023762,-0.0059478,-0.0017723,0.0012532,-0.0013253,-0.0015368

1.Italy_Rome_Republic_900-600bc,0.1286202,0.1535484,0.037863,-0.015827,0.0448698,-0.0064146,0.001598,-0.0025382,0.0229068,0.0411488,-0.000812,0.0125588,-0.0214072,-0.0092484,-0.0055102,0.0001326,0.0079272,0.0023818,0.007542,-0.0002752,-0.001123,0.0032396,-0.00106,-0.0052296,-0.0036882

0.Antiquity_Greek(Aegean-West_Anatolia)1-200AD,0.1087752,0.1504308,-0.0297105,-0.0637433,0.0003746,-0.021996,0.0003167,-0.0056285,-0.0070783,0.0216544,0.0041091,0.0038183,-0.0051902,0.0016276,-0.0128522,-0.003724,0.005771,0.0007271,0.0029349,-0.0048936,-0.0040634,0.0032364,-0.0015594,0.0021323,-0.0005102

1.Balkan-NorthEast_Italy_HRV_ALB_anc:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
1.Balkan-NorthEast_Italy_HRV_ALB_anc:HRV_Anc,0.1229285,0.1472515,0.0367695,-0.0001615,0.0344675,0.004044,-0.0015275,0.0001155,0.0017385,0.023326,-0.0051965,0.0097415,-0.0159065,-0.016859,-0.0041395,0.0043095,0.0215785,-0.0039275,0.005091,-0.0023135,-0.000187,0.003895,-0.001171,0.010363,-0.006287

2.Anatolia_Center_Phrygian_650BC,0.112116,0.1502985,-0.0352605,-0.0734825,-0.008771,-0.0262155,0.00188,-0.0084225,-0.0191225,0.016401,0.0060895,0.004571,-0.0077305,0.000757,-0.011672,-0.007359,0.009192,-0.0003165,0.0050905,-0.000688,-0.001123,0.0052555,-0.003574,0.0025905,0.0037125

3.Levant_Sidon_1800BC,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028


5.Armenia_Aghitu_20BC,0.106614,0.133373,-0.0569453,-0.0498497,-0.033442,-0.0116203,0.001175,-0.0043073,-0.0338827,-0.0089293,0.007903,-0.0019483,-0.0030227,-0.00211,-0.001131,-0.0111817,-0.0073017,-0.000211,0.001173,-0.0032517,0.005116,0.000247,-0.003985,-0.0049803,0.005708
5.Caucasus_BlackSea_Samsun_B_150BC,0.106994,0.131003,-0.065242,-0.029716,-0.047393,-0.000558,0.004465,-0.005307,-0.06463,-0.027335,-0.001624,0.012739,-0.026908,0.00812,0.003257,-0.032617,0.005867,-0.013682,-0.005154,0.016133,0.013601,0.004081,0.004314,-0.016147,-0.007784

8.Germanic_Langobardic_550AD:Collegno+szolad,0.1325522,0.1322035,0.0656531,0.0600193,0.0384686,0.0196238,0.0060246,0.009608,0.002566,-0.0054341,-0.0055065,0.0031064,-0.0101088,-0.0064433,0.024331,0.0029049,-0.0108337,0.002384,0.0057935,0.0038996,0.0086437,0.0070144,0.0006722,0.0153362,0.0009362
8.Slavic_RUS_Sunghir_1100AD,0.129758,0.116786,0.070899,0.060078,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868

9.North_African_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224


9.Turkic_Oghuz_ROU_Ploiesti_1000AD,0.078538,-0.177718,0.06675,0.028747,-0.053856,-0.006693,0.012691,0.014307,-0.007567,-0.011845,-0.007795,-0.005245,0.001784,-0.01913,0.001086,-0.008221,-0.001304,0.005321,0.00176,0.005002,-0.015473,0.009027,-0.007641,-0.000723,0.005029

why did you not use Villabruna ( from Feltre Veneto ) and Broion ( from Euganei mountains near Padua ) samples for North-East Italy ?


BTW...Broion is the exact same Ydna and snp that a man my grandfather sister married ...............so, there has not been much movement from bronze-age to 20th century

 

[Francesco]

It's not easy to replace a population, expecially if we are talking about big cities as the ones in southern Italy. You need both a very big movement of people and a demographic collapse of the host population. Why the original population of magna Grecia should have collapsed in the imperial era and why should it have been replaced only by Greeks from west Asia?
I think a genetic continuity between the south and the Aegean world is far more plausible: even letting reason and common sense aside and just focusing on aDNA, there are Greek in Himera that already resemble this west Asian profile.
The same thing applies for Greece itself: why its population should have been replaced in the imperial era? If I remember correctly, even Lazaridis talks of a genetic continuity in Greece since the myceneans, so an abrubt change is less plausible than a progressive admixing with Greeks from the ionian coast.

 

[Francesco]

More specifically on the Greek case: if this leak is correct, for instance, one cannot reasonable assume that the shift from the early Iron age to the hellenistic cluster is the result of an abrupt "invasion" and replacement in happened in the hellenistic era: the hellenistic period is a fairly short one and a find it more plausible to see it as a result of a progressive interaction with the Aegean and west anatolian greek world already in motion in the Iron and classical Age (by the way, one can clearly see that even among myceneans there are several individuals that have already some kind of west anatolian profile).

Relevant leak from upcoming Hellenistic Macedonia samples, it's a leak so not confirmed, the samples show heavy Anatolian overlap.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

What you are saying, if I go back to the Antonio et al 2019 paper, is that those Iron Age and Imperial Age Romans fall under one of several clusters. the C7 cluster was the one with more Steppe (Central European), The C6 was the Central Mediterranean one stretching from Central Italy down to Malta over to Greece. The C5 cluster was the East Mediterranean cluster which would include in Imperial Rome the provinces of Asia (Anatolia), Galatia, Armenia, etc and the C4 Cluster would be Near East, Judea, Syria, (the Levant, etc).

Modern Southern Italians cluster with the C6 cluster in Antonio et al 2019, not the C5 cluster, some overlap and not the C4 cluster at all, which using your G25 would capture the admixture that you said totally shifted Southern Italians or replaced the genetic ancestry 70%-90%. No way in hades do I believe that. Sorry, just don't buy it.

But i've never claimed 100% replacement by just the Greek West Anatolians. Obviously South Italians will not cluster with C5 because they also have some Iron Age Italian and Northern admix. Stop the mental gymnastics.

Don't mind the 0AD thing, typo.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

More specifically on the Greek case: if this leak is correct, for instance, one cannot reasonable assume that the shift from the early Iron age to the hellenistic cluster is the result of an abrupt "invasion" and replacement in happened in the hellenistic era: the hellenistic period is a fairly short one and a find it more plausible to see it as a result of a progressive interaction with the Aegean and west anatolian greek world already in motion in the Iron and classical Age (by the way, one can clearly see that even among myceneans there are several individuals that have already some kind of west anatolian profile).

The paper is showing that Hellenistic urban Macedonians were 50-70% Anatolian. Something like that happened later in imperial South Italy. Now i do not know if the shift happened in 10 or 50 or 100 or 200 years. Its possible that these people also moved to South Italy during the Hellenistic period and then in the Imperial period from South Italy to Rome. But what is certain is that South Italians have 40-60% admix from those people from West Anatolia which match the Imperial West Anatolian profile. The rest of the admix is Italian iron age, excess Levant, North African.

Half of the samples in the city of Imperial Rome are identical to imperial Greek West Anatolians. It is very likely that half of the population during that time was literally Greek in the city. They do not seem to be mixed yet with Iron Age Italians.

 

[Jovialis]

I think you are neglecting the fact that there were other people that lived in Southern Italy, who were not Daunians, Etruscans, or Italic.




"Iron Age Italians" you are speaking so broadly, because there were in fact other people that existed there before the Italics. R437 exists in the Iron Age and approximates with Southern Italians. C6 is the native central Mediterranean group that existed before the large scale migration of Anatolians (C5)




I think they are a mix of the prehistoric CHG/Anatolian-rich migrants that have been arriving since he the LN-EBA, and the northern influences from Etruscans/Italic+NW European influence. That's what the Minoan model from the 2022 paper makes sense.




That doesn't discount the fact that there were Imperial era immigrants, and I do think they had some impact. Southern Italians actually exist between C6 and C5 there's some overlap.

 

[ihype02]

Just because you cannot believe something, it doesn't change the reality. The data clearly show that there is a massive shift from imperial West Anatolia.
Lower birthrates, huge migrations can shift demographics, why is it so hard for people to understand.

Not if you use more distant sources.
It is the 70% that I am against.
Also check the Y-Dna in Italy.

 

[Francesco]

The paper is showing that Hellenistic urban Macedonians were 50-70% Anatolian. Something like that happened later in imperial South Italy. Now i do not know if the shift happened in 10 or 50 or 100 or 200 years. Its possible that these people also moved to South Italy during the Hellenistic period and then in the Imperial period from South Italy to Rome. But what is certain is that South Italians have 40-60% admix from those people from West Anatolia which match the Imperial West Anatolian profile. The rest of the admix is Italian iron age, excess Levant, North African.

Half of the samples in the city of Imperial Rome are identical to imperial Greek West Anatolians. It is very likely that half of the population during that time was literally Greek in the city. They do not seem to be mixed yet with Iron Age Italians.

A 70% admixture in just a few generations would basically imply an ethnic cleansing. Let's wait for the paper.

 

[Jovialis]

I think you are neglecting the fact that there were other people that lived in Southern Italy, who were not Daunians, Etruscans, or Italic.




"Iron Age Italians" you are speaking so broadly, because there were in fact other people that existed there before the Italics. R437 exists in the Iron Age and approximates with Southern Italians. C6 is the native central Mediterranean group that existed before the large scale migration of Anatolians (C5)




I think they are a mix of the prehistoric CHG/Anatolian-rich migrants that have been arriving since he the LN-EBA, and the northern influences from Etruscans/Italic+NW European influence. That's what the Minoan model from the 2022 paper makes sense.




That doesn't discount the fact that there were Imperial era immigrants, and I do think they had some impact. Southern Italians actually exist between C6 and C5 there's some overlap.