Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Bill7]

I would like to ask something. Is it possible to say how much slavic ancestry Greeks have? I have seen many users on anthrogenica claiming that Greeks and Albanians have atleast 35-40% balto-slavic dreaft but that seems an exaggeration what do you think?

 

[D.L.M]

I would like to ask something. Is it possible to say how much slavic ancestry Greeks have? I have seen many users on anthrogenica claiming that Greeks and Albanians have atleast 35-40% balto-slavic dreaft but that seems an exaggeration what do you think?

Compared to Myceneaen and Slovaks. You can use a ruler with academic PCAs you can see that Greek Macedonians are shifted 1/3 on average towards Poles. Slovaks are more southern than Poles plus when taking in consideration some negligible Anatolian ancestry which influences a southern shift, you get similar percentages 35%-40%.
But it's not all just Slavic but also more 'northern' ancestry.

 

[Bill7]

Compared to Myceneaen and Slovaks. You can use a ruler with academic PCAs you can see that Greek Macedonians are shifted 1/3 on average towards Poles. Slovaks are more southern than Poles plus when taking in consideration some neglible Anatolian ancestry which influences a southern shift, you get similar percentages 35%-40%.
But it's not all just Slavic but also more 'nothern' ancestry.

Yeah I agree this northern ancestry is not all slavic some of it might be present in Greece prior to slavs or it could be from hellenized thracians, illyrians, paeonians. I also believe that ancient Macedonians were more northern shifted than mycaeneans. I personally doubt that Greeks have more than 20% actual slavic ancestry

 

[Jovialis]

Greek colonization began to slowly accrue between 800 BC - 700 BC:

Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks. Why would some of the ancestry survive there, and not in Greece itself, according to eurogenes, questioning even 1%? I personally get 43% "Greek & Albanian", and only "2% Cyprus" according to Ancestry DNA. The Greeks of this age would not be substantially Cypriot.

Edit: 3% Cyprus

 

[D.L.M]

Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks. Why would some of the ancestry survive there, and not in Greece itself, according to eurogenes, questioning even 1%? I personally get 43% "Greek & Albanian", and only "2% Cyprus" according to Ancestry DNA. The Greeks of this age would not be substantially Cypriot.

In amateur calculators they show up as 5% Anatolian. But I don't even automatically trust the interpretations of scientists let alone some forum members. I only take strict facts for granted like : "Old Greeks carried J2a." "Old Greek plot close to Southern Italians."
Those statements are facts. Now you can use those facts and derive a complete different story from another.

 

[Hawk]

Yeah I agree this northern ancestry is not all slavic some of it might be present in Greece prior to slavs or it could be from hellenized thracians, illyrians, paeonians. I also believe that ancient Macedonians were more northern shifted than mycaeneans. I personally doubt that Greeks have more than 20% actual slavic ancestry

Helladic Middle Bronze Age Log_2 had tones of Steppe, so some cherry picked samples don't picture the whole mosaique.

 

[Bill7]

Helladic Middle Bronze Age Log_2 had tones of Steppe, so some cherry picked samples don't picture the whole mosaique.

some "insiders" said that we are gonna see more steppe heavy paleobalkan samples. I also thought that we had ancient thracian and illyrian remains which clustered with modern Bulgarians and Romanians

 

[Hawk]

some "insiders" said that we are gonna see more steppe heavy paleobalkan samples. I also thought that we had ancient thracian and illyrian remains which clustered with modern Bulgarians and Romanians

These calculators are very basic, nested if's and else's in JavaScript. They just compare a very basic percentage splits between components.

 

[Jovialis]

In amateur calculators they show up as 5% Anatolian. But I don't even automatically trust the interpretations of scientists let alone some forum members. I only take strict facts for granted like : "Old Greeks carried J2a." "Old Greek plot close to Southern Italians."
Those statements are facts. Now you can use those facts and derive a complete different story from another.

Reconstruction of Greek from Magna Grecia. If you ask me this man could fit right in South Italy, but also modern Greece, and Albania.

 

[Dianatomia]

Compared to Myceneaen and Slovaks. You can use a ruler with academic PCAs you can see that Greek Macedonians are shifted 1/3 on average towards Poles. Slovaks are more southern than Poles plus when taking in consideration some neglible Anatolian ancestry which influences a southern shift, you get similar percentages 35%-40%.
But it's not all just Slavic but also more 'nothern' ancestry.

After seeing that in the EBA there was much more steppe ancestry in places like the Thesally/Macedonia border area than the South of Greece, and taking into consideration the rumors that there were also Cypriot like classical Greeks, we shouldn't take anything for granted.

 

[Bill7]

After seeing that in the EBA there was much more steppe ancestry in places like the Thesally/Macedonia border area than the South of Greece, and taking into consideration the rumors that there were also Cypriot like classical Greeks, we shouldn't take anything for granted.

But it should be next to impossible for thessalian epirotans and Macedonian Greeks during the iron age to be log_2 like and southern Greeks to be cypriot - anatolian like. Modern mainland Greeks even today are close to each other genetically and cluster closely

 

[bigsnake49]

But it should be next to impossible for thessalian epirotans and Macedonian Greeks during the iron age to be log_2 like and southern Greeks to be cypriot - anatolian like. Modern mainland Greeks even today are close to each other genetically and cluster closely

Greeks were not totally homogeneous. There were of different tribes or clans. Then they mixed with the locals and we don't know how differentiated they were from each other.

 

[Çerç]

Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks

In what part of the paper exactly?

You keep misquoting this paper. They only leave it open as a possibility, while not finding any evidence of it. It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found.

 

[Çerç]

Here is their main conclusion on the topic:


"Importantly, the same ancestral sources are equally shared both by the present-day “open” (i.e. not-isolated) Southern Italian populations of Benevento, Castrovillari and Catanzaro, as well as by the geographically and linguistically-isolated communities of the Aspromonte mountain area, thus signaling a common genetic background that possibly predates the linguistic hypotheses originally suggested about the times of formation of the Greco language in Southern Italy. Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times."

Only to a connection that predates Magnia Graecia has been evidenced, but they hypothesize interaction may have continued, which has not been detected yet.

 

[Jovialis]

In what part of the paper exactly?

You keep misquoting this paper. They only leave it open as a possibility, while not finding any evidence of it. It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found.

I have misquoted nothing, you are begging the question with a decidedly negative approach. Excuse me, but it is extremely likely that SOME of the ancestry in southern Italy is attributed to the Ancient Greeks. Considering the FACT that they colonized the area, and were a significant presence.

"It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found."


So you draw a hard and fast conclusion solely on this, but not the possibility of ancient Greek contributions?


I strongly dislike the tone of your post, and from the looks of your profile, I think you may be one of that retarded "Romanian" t-roll's socks.

Previous surveys on the ancient genetic legacy of Southern Italy pointed to genetic contributions linking Southern Italy and Mediterranean Greek islands with Anatolia and the Caucasus tracing back to migratory events occurred during the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, in which the Mediterranean served as a preferential crossroad3,13,27. In particular, while the expansion of Anatolian Neolithic farmers significantly impacted all the Peninsula, differential Bronze-Age contributions were observed for Southern Italy with respect to Northern Italian populations. Bronze Age influences in the gene pool of Southern Italians have been in fact associated to a non-steppe Caucasian-related ancestry carried along the Mediterranean shores at the same time, but independently from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe migrations that occurred through Continental Europe. Consistently with this viewpoint, genetic analyses performed by comparing our modern populations with the main ancient ancestral sources have displayed the clustering of analysed Southern Italian groups with Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian, Aegean Minoan and Mycenaean populations, as opposed to the affinity of Northern Italy with Late-Neolithic and Bronze-Age samples from continental Europe (Suppl. Figure S8). Accordingly, both f3-outgroup, qpGraph and qpAdmixture analyses (Fig. 4, Suppl. Figure S9, Suppl. Figure S10) revealed influences related to a Steppe ancestry in the Northern Italian groups, instead paralleled in Southern Italy by an analogous Caucasian-related contribution from a non-Steppe CHG/Iran_N source. Importantly, the same ancestral sources are equally shared both by the present-day “open” (i.e. not-isolated) Southern Italian populations of Benevento, Castrovillari and Catanzaro, as well as by the geographically and linguistically-isolated communities of the Aspromonte mountain area (Fig. 4, Suppl. Table S8), thus signaling a common genetic background that possibly predates the linguistic hypotheses originally suggested about the times of formation of the Greco language in Southern Italy. Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times. Therefore, the observed patterns could be linked to a tendency to mobility that has always characterized these populations, resulting in continuous cultural and genetic exchanges over time. That being so, the Calabrian Greek ethno-linguistic minorities of Southern Italy may be interpreted as the remnants of a wider area of Greek influence, that by virtue of their geographic isolation have preserved and evolved a unique variety of Greek which has survived through centuries in the mountains of the Aspromonte area. At this respect, the communities showing higher signatures of genetic isolation (Roghudi, Gallicianò, Condofuri and Roccaforte del Greco; Suppl. Figure S4, Suppl. Figure S5) are also the ones located in the more impervious areas of the Aspromonte, at the same time still conserving a certain number of Greco speakers (Suppl. Table S1)40,41.

 

[Çerç]

I strongly dislike the tone of your post, and from the looks of your profile, I think you may be one of that retarded "Romanian" t-roll's socks.

There you go again with personal attacks, responding to substantive comments with language for which you give infractions to regular members. Nobody is interested in your tone preferences btw.

I have misquoted nothing, you are begging the question with a decidedly negative approach. Excuse me, but it is extremely likely that SOME of the ancestry in southern Italy is attributed to the Ancient Greeks. Considering the FACT that they colonized the area, and were a significant presence.

"It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found."


So you draw a hard and fast conclusion solely on this, but not the possibility of ancient Greek contributions?

First, please do not change what I said. I did not contest the truthfulness of Ancient Greek ancestry in South Italians, which in my opinion, despite not having been detected yet, will likely be captured in future studies, maybe once IA samples emerge.

I contested your claim that "Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks", which is simply untrue, and thus a misquote. They did not attribute any ancestry in South Italians to Ancient Greeks. They only hypothesized about it in the conclusion and left it as an open-ended question to be researched further in the future.

 

[Jovialis]

There you go again with personal attacks, responding to substantive comments with language for which you give infractions to regular members. Nobody is interested in your tone preferences btw.



First, please do not change what I said. I did not contest the truthfulness of Ancient Greek ancestry in South Italians, which in my opinion, despite not having been detected yet, will likely be captured in future studies, maybe once IA samples emerge.

I contested your claim that "Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks", which is simply untrue, and thus a misquote. They did not attribute any ancestry in South Italians to Ancient Greeks. They only hypothesized about it in the conclusion and left it as an open-ended question to be researched further in the future.

There I go again? Have we spoken before? Is this some kind of ban evasion you are pulling?

You don't contest the truthfulness, then what are you saying? You don't believe it, yet you believe it? You are being needlessly contrarian.

 

[Jovialis]

Why is it that two socks of the "Romanian" t-roll always circulate around the same set of Albanian members profiles? This is highly peculiar, I am starting to think these members are colluding in trying to disrupt the website.

• Panda
• toteu

I can see who sees what, who messages who, and who upvotes who. Don't think you are so slick...

 

[Çerç]

There I go again? Have we spoken before? Is this some kind of ban evasion you are pulling?

You don't contest the truthfulness, then what are you saying? You don't believe it, yet you believe it? You are being needlessly contrarian.

What I am saying is very clear: South Italians may have some ancestry from Ancient Greeks, but it has not been detected in academic papers yet, so stop misquoting them.

Yes, we have spoken before on this same thread or a similar one, and just like now you and the other moderator hurled very low personalized attacks (some of which you later deleted at least) and speculations at me for stating what I believe the authors have found, without offending anyone.

Why is it that two socks of the "Romanian" t-roll always circulate around the same set of Albanian members profiles? This is highly peculiar, I am starting to think these members are colluding in trying to disrupt the website.

• Panda
• toteu

I can see who sees what, who messages who, and who upvotes who. Don't think you are so slick...

If you can see everything at least don't lie. My only messages are your "malcontent tone" or "inappropriate language" infractions and one message with Giannicus. I don't have any idea who those two people are. Anyway, with a measure of censorship in place, I hope you can now focus on the content of my argument, as that is the only thing I am interested in.

 

[Çerç]

Don't lie. I have no messages besides your infraction notices and one from Giannicus. I have no idea who those two are.