Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Ailchu]

I don't have Algerian_Jews, but Moroccan_jews are quite different from minoans in autosomal DNA

Minoans are mostly Anatolian_N with a bit of CHG, as demonstrated by the study of this thread.

Moroccon_Jews are as such:

They are different too, Natufian is very different from CHG as demonstrated by PCA analysis:

Also there are other exotic admixture in them which make Moroccan_Jews different as well.

sure, but how different is Natufian to CHG or Anatolian_N relative to the distances that exist between CHG/Anatolian_N/WHG/EHG? the Natufian in Jewish people might not pull them as far away from Minoans as the other admxtures that nowadays are present in other populations.

 

[Jovialis]

sure, but how different is Natufian to CHG or Anatolian_N relative to the distances that exist between CHG/Anatolian_N/WHG/EHG?

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]49.01237089[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.82553396[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]61.35627678[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]95.20301938[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

These populations are extremely different from one another.

 

[Jovialis]

Which possibility?

Oh I just saw the quote.

Yeah I wasn't talking about that. Was asking what Ancient Jews and Phoenician auDNA composition is.

Ancient DNA of Phoenician remains indicates discontinuity in the settlement history of Ibiza
[TABLE="width: 366"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 366"]accession numbers: MH43585-43559

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
It seems the author of this study hasn't yet uploaded the data files. I e-mailed him about it in the past, but thus far no response. I can't tell you personally, but the information is out there.

 

[Ailchu]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]49.01237089[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.82553396[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Levant_(Natufians)_(n=6)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=7)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]61.35627678[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]95.20301938[/TD]
[TD]Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

These populations are extremely different from one another.

and isn't this a possible explanation why modern jewish people might be the closest to minoans? populations in europe might be admixed more with EHG/CHG/WHG who btw are all further away from the Minoans main component Anatolia_N, than Natufian is, according to these results.

 

[Jovialis]

and isn't this a possible explanation why modern jewish people might be the closest to minoans? populations in europe might be admixed more with EHG/CHG/WHG who btw are all further away from the Minoans main component Anatolia_N, than Natufian is, according to these results.

No, I have already demonstrated in the graphic that they have a different autosomal admixture.

 

[Dianatomia]

I find it quite remarkable that Log02 and Log04, two Middle Bronze Age inhabitants from the same settlement do not genetically overlap. This indicates to me that one of the two may be mixed. If we look more closely, then we can notice that Log02 plots half way between Log 04 to the Mycenaeans of the Early Bronze Age. Furthermore, in between we can find the Late Bronze Age sample from Crete (Armenoi) which chronologically is very close to the Iron Age and significantly closer to the Northern Greek samples than the Mycenaens. Crete_Armenoi (I9123) plots somewhere between Log02 and Minoans.

This clearly indicates that there is a migration North to South during the Bronze Age. So there was intermixture in the North of Greece and starting the Middle Bronze Age there was intermixture in the South of Greece and Crete.

 

[Ailchu]

No, I have already demonstrated in the graphic that they have a different autosomal admixture.

there is no modern population that has the same autosomal admixture as minoans.

 

[Jovialis]

there is no modern population that has the same autosomal admixture as minoans.

Indeed, which is why we need to be careful when comparing them to modern populations.

I would say, that they are at least part of the ancestry of some modern populations though. However small it may be.

 

[Ailchu]

Indeed, which is why we need to be careful when comparing them to modern populations.

why that? we constantly compare populations who have different autosomal profiles. which population do you think is closest to minoans and why? they will also have different "exotic" admixtures that explain their pull away from minoans.

if the distances you posted are correct you probably need way less WHG-admixture for example to be pulled away from minoans the same distance as someone who has natufian admixture.

 

[Jovialis]

why that? we constantly compare populations who have different autosomal profiles. which population do you think is closest to minoans and why? they will also have different "exotic" admixtures that explain their pull away from minoans.

if the distances you posted are correct you probably need way less WHG-admixture for example to be pulled away from minoans the same distance as someone who has natufian admixture.

You answered your own question in the previous post, of which I agreed with. There is no modern population that has the same admixture rates as Minoans. Also, there is no WHG or Natufian in Minoans, so that point is moot. Minoans are however ancestral to some modern populations, for example Modern Greeks.

 

[Archetype0ne]

You answered your own question in the previous post, of which I agreed with. There is no modern population that has the same admixture rates as Minoans. Also, there is no WHG or Natufian in Minoans, so that point is moot. Minoans are however ancestral to some modern populations, for example Modern Greeks.

Help me wrap my head around this.
First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

Am I missing something?
I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.

 

[Jovialis]

Help me wrap my head around this.
First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

Am I missing something?
I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.

The "Greek" sample in Dodecad doesn't account for all Greeks. The sample set is limited, and doesn't represent all modern populations. There are in fact Greeks that are closer to Minoans than these Jews:

​

Frankly, it is a bit odd to insist that these African Jewish populations are close to Minoans when:


A: the study dismisses African and Levantine admixture in Minoans. Which are elements that distinguish these Jews from Minoans.


B: Their autosomal admixture is very different as I have shown in previous posts.


C: These calculators are not estimating IBD. This is just measuring how far the algorithm places them on the PCA plot. Which is why it requires mental gymnastics to understand that it doesn't make sense.

Also, Southern Italians are closer to Mycenaeans, not Minoans.

 

[Ailchu]

The "Greek" sample in Dodecad doesn't account for all Greeks. The sample set is limited, and doesn't represent all modern populations. There are in fact Greeks that are closer to Minoans than these Jews:

​

Frankly, it is a bit odd to insist that these African Jewish populations are close to Minoans when:


A: the study dismisses African and Levantine admixture in Minoans. Which are elements that distinguish these Jews from Minoans.


B: Their autosomal admixture is very different as I have shown in previous posts.


C: These calculators are not estimating IBD. This is just measuring how far the algorithm places them on the PCA plot. Which is why it requires mental gymnastics to understand that it doesn't make sense.

Also, Southern Italians are closer to Mycenaeans, not Minoans.

A: that isn't needed for similarity

B: as you can see from the distances they are all far away.

C: that is a point. the paper of this thread has a graphic with fst distances for Minoan samples. there modern greeks are closest, followed by italians and then levant.

 

[Jovialis]

A: that isn't needed for similarity

B: as you can see from the distances they are all far away.

C: that is a point. the paper of this thread has a graphic with fst distances for Minoan samples. there modern greeks are closest, followed by italians and then levant.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? That is what I have been saying.

Also check your attitude, because you are one step away from being thrown out of here. This is your final warning.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Help me wrap my head around this.
First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

Am I missing something?
I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.

ArchetypeOne: As Jovialis noted, people whose ancestors are 100% South of Lazio (Southern Italian mainland and Sicily) are generally closer to Mycenaean Greeks. This is true for me which while is anecdotal evidence, I think my results are in line with what the extant research has shown and other folks here whose ancestors are from Campania, Calabria, Puglia, Basilicata and Sicily. Here are 4 calculators where I used my NAT GENO DNA, which is supposed to be capture ancient DNA history if I remember correctly (they shut down DNA sample collections). While there are differences across the 4 Calculators, all of them are consistent with me being closer to Mycenaeans vs. Minoans.

Dodecad K7

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani_NATGENO[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.58104733[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #39FF00, align: right"]5.59454198[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #47FF00, align: right"]6.94345735[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #76FF00, align: right"]11.52864259[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]13.83789363[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #91FF00, align: right"]14.23595799[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9BFF00, align: right"]15.19697009[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ACFF00, align: right"]16.87355623[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9127[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ACFF00, align: right"]16.88117591[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9129[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ADFF00, align: right"]16.98849905[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]18.23899668[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C2FF00, align: right"]19.00771685[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]19.94972180[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CDFF00, align: right"]20.09297638[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9128

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Dodecad Global 13

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani_NATGENO[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #54FF00, align: right"]8.22581303[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_:I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5EFF00, align: right"]9.21547611[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete_:I9123[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #75FF00, align: right"]11.49940868[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese_:I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7AFF00, align: right"]11.93504085[/TD]
[TD]Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8FFF00, align: right"]14.02505258[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_:I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9EFF00, align: right"]15.49826765[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis_:I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A2FF00, align: right"]15.84660216[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2495[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B5FF00, align: right"]17.75115489[/TD]
[TD]Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B9FF00, align: right"]18.12690818[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]18.26382490[/TD]
[TD]Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BFFF00, align: right"]18.74373495[/TD]
[TD]Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]18.88493315[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2499[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]18.91741261[/TD]
[TD]Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C5FF00, align: right"]19.35323746[/TD]
[TD]Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D1FF00, align: right"]20.47262074[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]20.99498035[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8FF00, align: right"]21.18151317[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2683[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E0FF00, align: right"]21.91315587[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9128[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E1FF00, align: right"]22.07728924[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]22.21065285[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]22.25308518[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAFF00, align: right"]22.90734380[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9129[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]23.12924988[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete_:I0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]23.15987478[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_:I2937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE300, align: right"]27.74930990[/TD]
[TD]Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_:I9127

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Dodecad K12

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani_NATGENO[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #71FF00, align: right"]11.04334641[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #78FF00, align: right"]11.72534434[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7AFF00, align: right"]11.93793952[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #80FF00, align: right"]12.58136320[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]13.41464871[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]18.20228008[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]18.23089137[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BBFF00, align: right"]18.37221544[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C3FF00, align: right"]19.10626599[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C4FF00, align: right"]19.20580641[/TD]
[TD]MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]20.25517712[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]20.34000246[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Minoan_Petrasta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D5FF00, align: right"]20.88118771[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D5FF00, align: right"]20.90179657[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]21.67007845[/TD]
[TD]EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]26.98719511[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]31.95776431[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Eurogenes K13

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani_NATGENO[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #61FF00, align: right"]9.54838730[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #68FF00, align: right"]10.18505768[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #73FF00, align: right"]11.29046058[/TD]
[TD]Greece_MBA_Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]14.31854741[/TD]
[TD]EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]14.34987108[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #98FF00, align: right"]14.91310162[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A3FF00, align: right"]15.93369700[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCFF00, align: right"]19.95983216[/TD]
[TD]Greece_MBA_Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CDFF00, align: right"]20.14409839[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D2FF00, align: right"]20.54011441[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]20.97182157[/TD]
[TD]Greece_MBA_Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8FF00, align: right"]21.20804093[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]21.23122465[/TD]
[TD]EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]21.26966384[/TD]
[TD]Greece_EBA_Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E4FF00, align: right"]22.38982581[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Anatolia_EBA_4377_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]23.13734643[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5FF00, align: right"]24.05961554[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF700, align: right"]25.74974369[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Peloponnese_N_7359_ybp

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Archetype0ne]

Thanks for sharing the results Palermo. It seems I remembered you correctly. Just mixed up Myceneans with Minoans. My bad.

Jovialis you answered all my questions. Agree with all of the points.
Just want to make clear I am not insisting that these "African Jewish populations are close to Minoans". Was more of an observation on the calculators, whom as you recall we both criticized earlier in the thread for the same reason you pointed out in the graphical posts. I really don't know why my post is being interpreted that way. Just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

Alichu thanks for pointing out I forgot about that graphic of the paper. The thread is quite old. Must have confused it with some other thread I have been active in recently.

PS: Palermo, it still blows my mind your genetic distance to those Myceneans given the timeframe, everytime I see your calculator results. Truly astounding. I do not even have that close of a distance on most calculators using 1 way calculation to my own modern reference people (IIRC).

 

[Archetype0ne]

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Thanks for sharing the results Palermo. It seems I remembered you correctly. Just mixed up Myceneans with Minoans. My bad.

Jovialis you answered all my questions. Agree with all of the points.
Just want to make clear I am not insisting that these "African Jewish populations are close to Minoans". Was more of an observation on the calculators, whom as you recall we both criticized earlier in the thread for the same reason you pointed out in the graphical posts. I really don't know why my post is being interpreted that way. Just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

Alichu thanks for pointing out I forgot about that graphic of the paper. The thread is quite old. Must have confused it with some other thread I have been active in recently.

PS: Palermo, it still blows my mind your genetic distance to those Myceneans given the timeframe, everytime I see your calculator results. Truly astounding. I do not even have that close of a distance on most calculators using 1 way calculation to my own modern reference people (IIRC).

ArchetypeOne: Your welcome. Those calculators are all in agreement with my MTA results as well. I get deep dive matches for I9041 (Mycenean, 83% closer than matching users), Minoan I0073 (78% closer than matching users), I9006 (Mycenean, 69% closer than other matching users), I0071 (Minoan, 46% closer to other matching users), I0005 (Minoan, 32% closer), , I0074 (Minoan, 23% closer) and I0070 (Minoan, 9% closer). The MTA results below use a combined Ancestry/23Me file which Gedmatch allows you to to. Unfortunately, I can't run my NATGENO through MTA due to formatting of the data that I saved from their site.

Some of those new ancient Greek samples are now at MTA, I get some deep dives with them as well:

Early Helladic Manika Euboa Island Greece, 2827 BC (MIK_wgs) 72% closer than other matching users.

Ancient Petras SIteias Crete, 2735 BC, Pta_08wgs 71% closer.

Early Helladic Manika Euboae Island Greece, 2827 BC MIK_wgs_trimp5bp, 25% closer

With respect to these last 3 samples, I am not sure what the difference is between the 2 MIK_wgs. Did one sample not make it to the paper due to quality control?

 

[Archetype0ne]

@ Jovialis. I got an answer looking at the paper. What is your interpretation of this, since the country lines/modern populations are not demarkated.

2 Things I take away are:

1. Even North Italians and Albanians seem to be related to a) Myceneans and b) Lasinthi Minoans as much as mainland Greeks, however less than Greek Islanders / Sicilians.

2. Albanians seem to be related to Minoan Odigritia as much as Peloponnese Greeks. Both groups more than Greek Islanders (Marginally more than Crete, substantially more than Cyprus).

Want your thoughts on this analysis. Might be a good checkup for any color blindness I might have.

For better resolution. Even I am not too sure of the colors.

Notice Canary Islands. LOL

 

[Jovialis]

@ Jovialis. I got an answer looking at the paper. What is your interpretation of this, since the country lines/modern populations are not demarkated.

2 Things I take away are:

1. Even North Italians and Albanians seem to be related to a) Myceneans and b) Lasinthi Minoans as much as mainland Greeks, however less than Greek Islanders / Sicilians.

2. Albanians seem to be related to Minoan Odigritia as much as Peloponnese Greeks. Both groups more than Greek Islanders (Marginally more than Crete, substantially more than Cyprus).

Want your thoughts on this analysis. Might be a good checkup for any color blindness I might have.

For better resolution. Even I am not too sure of the colors.

Notice Canary Islands. LOL

There's a lot of discussion on this graphic earlier in the thread. Their affinity has to do with overlapping source populations; i.e. levels of Anatolian_N and CHG. There are also issues with that graphic too, notice the south Italian sample is blue, yet we know there is a relatively high affinity compared to the others that are redder.