Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

Are they talking about Magyar or Hungarian elite (Ungar, Ugur - Turkic?)
 
Maciamo said:
I2-M423 and R1b-U106 were almost certainly both present in Hungary before the Magyars arrived. They would have been brought respectively by the Slavic migrations and the Germanic migrations a few centuries earlier. But both of them would also have been found further east, e.g. in Ukraine, and it's not impossible that these specific samples were really invaders from the north-east. It's just that they weren't true Magyars but were assimilated on the way from Siberia to Hungary.
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Whatif they were Onogurs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onogurs

"We present 17 mtDNA haplotypes
and four Y-chromosome haplogroups, which portray the
genetic composition of an entire small cemetery of the first
generation Hungarians."
 
The exonym "Hungarian" is thought to be derived from Ugor or the Bulgar-Turkic On-Ogur (meaning "ten" Ogurs),[25] which was the name of the tribes who joined the Bulgar tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars. Nonetheless, written sources called Magyars "Hungarians" prior to the conquest of the Carpathian Basin (in 837 "Ungri" mentioned by Georgius Monachus, in 862 "Ungri" by Annales Bertiniani, in 881 "Ungari" by the Annales ex Annalibus Iuvavensibus) when they still lived on the steppes of Eastern Europe eastward from the Carpathians. The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance, and it is possible that they became its ethnic majority.[25] In the Early Middle Ages the Hungarians had many different names, such as "Ungherese" (in Italian) or Ungar (in German) or Hungarus.[26] The "H-" prefix is an addition in Medieval Latin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians
 
Observations on anthropological research concerning the
period of Hungarian conquest and the Arpadian age


http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf

The work of Tibor Tóth extended the range of investigations
(Tóth 1958, 1965, 1973). In his opinion the conquering
Hungarians came to a relatively similar morphological
environment in the central Danubian Basin. Later on their
Mongolid character faded. Their ethnogenesis had already
taken place in the North-Caspian region. In 1992, he reworded
his earlier observations. As opposed to former opinions, he
thought that the elements of the Mongolid great-race had
been as completely insignificant in the ethnic composition
of the conquering Hungarians as in that of the Avar Khaganat,
and also in other, “historic populations of the 2nd millennium
AD”. He interpreted the Hungarian conquest as the last
migration wave of the Europid Pontic race proceeding from
the North Caspian region into the Central Danubian region.
 
gyms said:
The exonym "Hungarian" is thought to be derived from Ugor or the Bulgar-Turkic On-Ogur (meaning "ten" Ogurs),[25] which was the name of the tribes who joined the Bulgar tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars. Nonetheless, written sources called Magyars "Hungarians" prior to the conquest of the Carpathian Basin (in 837 "Ungri" mentioned by Georgius Monachus, in 862 "Ungri" by Annales Bertiniani, in 881 "Ungari" by the Annales ex Annalibus Iuvavensibus) when they still lived on the steppes of Eastern Europe eastward from the Carpathians. The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance, and it is possible that they became its ethnic majority.[25] In the Early Middle Ages the Hungarians had many different names, such as "Ungherese" (in Italian) or Ungar (in German) or Hungarus.[26] The "H-" prefix is an addition in Medieval Latin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians
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They say that it was cementary from year 895. So probably it is about new arrivals the Magyars, from much closer by.

Hungarian_migration-Settlement.jpg
 
Brennos said:
Please, spare me your cheap and sad sarcasm, it's really rude and out of topic when you talk about an early medieval culture and link it unlogically to a prehystoric culture to denigrate other people's thoughts.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the uneasyness, maybe you might develop a deeper thinking to understand the irony. Take it easy.
 
gyms said:
Observations on anthropological research concerning the
period of Hungarian conquest and the Arpadian age


http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf

The work of Tibor Tóth extended the range of investigations
(Tóth 1958, 1965, 1973). In his opinion the conquering
Hungarians came to a relatively similar morphological
environment in the central Danubian Basin. Later on their
Mongolid character faded. Their ethnogenesis had already
taken place in the North-Caspian region. In 1992, he reworded
his earlier observations. As opposed to former opinions, he
thought that the elements of the Mongolid great-race had
been as completely insignificant in the ethnic composition
of the conquering Hungarians as in that of the Avar Khaganat,
and also in other, “historic populations of the 2nd millennium
AD”. He interpreted the Hungarian conquest as the last
migration wave of the Europid Pontic race proceeding from
the North Caspian region into the Central Danubian region.
Click to expand...

Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid types);
 
borderline: 'bulgar' gave the french word "bougre" (pejorative qualificative for peopl= 'ned', 'hooligan', like "vandal" or "apache" before being softened in meaning: "un bon bougre") - 'hungarian' gave french "hongre" concerning castrated stallions... for the fun.
 
MOESAN said:
borderline: 'bulgar' gave the french word "bougre" (pejorative qualificative for peopl= 'ned', 'hooligan', like "vandal" or "apache" before being softened in meaning: "un bon bougre") - 'hungarian' gave french "hongre" concerning castrated stallions... for the fun.
Click to expand...

French bougre also English bugger come from the ethnic term Bulgarian catching derogatory "heretic" due to Bogomils,see Cathars in France.
 
MOESAN said:
Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid types);
Click to expand...

Onogur was name of Bulgars also old great Bulgaria in today Ukraine and Russia centered in Phanagoria was known as Patria Onoguria,many historians including emperor Constantine said that's how Bulgars called themselves earlier,how they become associated with or "formed" alliance and becomed Bulgarians is unclear.
 
MOESAN said:
Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid
Click to expand...

- the Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

6c Avar helmet
Avar2.jpg




1c ancient korean helmet
Korea-Gaya_Warrior.jpg
 
There had been so much mixing by this time that this shouldn't come a huge surprise.

Siberians had been mixing with Iranians (certainly Tocharians too) since we moved into the Iron age. And this was a group that was living after the Hunnic migrations, which itself consisted of not only Turkics speakers, but Germans, Iranians and others.
 
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The Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

6c Avar helmet is great
 
http://www.zemplen.hu/turisztika/bodrogkoz_e.htm

A cemetery dating from the time of the conquest containing significant artifacts was unearthed by archeologists in 1986, in a place called Karos within the Bodrogköz. The artifacts were that of conquerors from the historical Etelköz and it was an astounding finding indeed. Nicely decorated hilts and daggers, quivers, bows, fitted belts, splendid harnesses, gold and silver jewelry, ornaments, Italian and arabic coins, pearls, goldplated headpieces and much more were found.

http://www.zemplen.org/en/11-hirek/440-a-piece-of-history-honfoglalas-kori-latogato-kozpont-in-karos

At border of the village, was an excavated one of the richest ancient cemeteries. The artifacts found show that the conquering Hungarians ruling and grand prince of this region built the first center. It is important proof that the Bodrogköz was one of the conquering Hungarians first premises.

What kurgans?

A kurgan (Russian: курга́н) is a tumulus, a type of burial mound or barrow, heaped over a burial chamber, often of wood.[1] The Russian noun, which is already attested in Old East Slavic, is borrowed from an unidentified Turkic language,[2] compare Modern Turkish kurğan, which means "fortress". They are mounds of earth and stones raised over a grave or graves. Associated with its use in Soviet archaeology, the word is now widely used for tumuli in the context of Eastern European and Central Asian archaeology.
The earliest kurgans date to the 4th millennium BC in the Caucasus,[3] and are associated with the Indo-Europeans.[4] Kurgans were built in the Eneolithic, Bronze, Iron, Antiquity and Middle Ages, with ancient traditions still active in Southern Siberia and Central Asia. Kurgan cultures are divided archeologically into different sub-cultures, such as Timber Grave, Pit Grave, Scythian, Sarmatian, Hunnish and Kuman-Kipchak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan
 
berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
Who are the true Magyars?
 
gyms said:
berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
Who are the true Magyars?
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Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.


I also wanted to point out that, according to Maciamo's maps, r-u106 isn't so spread and common in Hungary. So is i2 of that subclade.
 
berun said:
Sorry for the uneasyness, maybe you might develop a deeper thinking to understand the irony. Take it easy.
Click to expand...

I'm so sorry, but it isn't a problem to develop a deeper thinking... It's a matter to be honest and not clowns. If you were serious, then you would put on the table better arguments than "it's r1b, so it is impossible"... But I know that is even impossible for your biased way of thinking that a thought different from "r1b is shit" is very far from being real.
 
Brennos said:
Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.
THE CEMETERIES
OF THE CONQUEST PERIOD


A picture differing markedly from the other areas of the

Carpathian Basin emerges in the Upper Tisza region. The
cemeteries in this area have a conspicuously high number of
male burials (accounting for up to fifty per cent of the buri-
als) equipped with a wide array of weapons. Almost all the

men were buried with their archery equipment; sabres and
axes are also quite frequent. Their real wealth, however, is
indicated by their insignia of rank: sabretaches ornamented
with mounts or metal plaques, belt sets, sabres covered with
silver or gold plaques, bow cases fitted with mounts and lav-

ishly ornamented horse harness. These burials undoubtedly
represent the graves of the highest-ranking leaders of the
10th century Hungarians (Karos and Rakamaz; Fig. 34).



http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf
Click to expand...
 
gyms said:
What kurgans?
Click to expand...

Just look at post #17; archaeologists have traced Magyars to the SW Urals and the culture there used to bury under kurgans / mounds.
 
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