Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[LABERIA]

There is an obvious level of bias in the study as well as your handling of what should and should not be said in this thread. The fact that Arvanite were left out of the study is direct evidence of how this study is manipulated. I imagine it would have showed that there is no difference in the Peloponnese population to the Arvanite ones. Anyways, continue to daze at your own theories with studies designed to do just that.

According to: D. Georgacas - W.A. McDonald, Place Names of Southwest Peloponnesus, Minneapolis 1967, in the region of Mani, 1450 toponyms are Albanian. There are this theories of prominent greek scholars like Sathas, S. G. Panayotopoulos and P. Kanelidis, Fourikis, etc, about Maniates, Tsakonian dialect, etc, but according to this study and what we read, everything is wrong, so.....

 

[Megalophias]

The Slav reference is roughly "Slavic tribe and Slav inhabited districts and villages in the oblique bis12ten century"

It says "9th to 12th century".

 

[LATGAL]

According to: D. Georgacas - W.A. McDonald, Place Names of Southwest Peloponnesus, Minneapolis 1967, in the region of Mani, 1450 toponyms are Albanian. There are this theories of prominent greek scholars like Sathas, S. G. Panayotopoulos and P. Kanelidis, Fourikis, etc, about Maniates, Tsakonian dialect, etc, but according to this study and what we read, everything is wrong, so.....

No, it isn't wrong, you just can't understand context and rely many times on outdated sources or sources that were fringy even in their own time. Sathas (the 19th century guy who wanted to downplay the Slavic presence and argue for very early Albanian migrations south, before they are even mentioned in medieval Arbanon in Central Albania) also wrote very interesting things about the connections some Albanian tribes had with Levantine populations like the Mardaites but those were just as nonsensical and I assume you won't accept those, for example. You're also not addressing anything specific about the study itself but keep posting the same old stuff.

Arvanites in the early 19th century as described by German ethnographers like Hahn were <20% of the population of the new Greek kingdom (and we have recent work done on their medieval presence as well), yet here we're supposed to think they were the most important element even of very isolated groups like the Tsakones who preserved a very Doric-influenced variant of the Koine.

And of course Tosk Albanians (which the Arvanites are) seem very early Slavic-influenced judging by their R1a and I2 subclades as well so they too would bring in new "early Slavic"-like ancestry wherever they went.

Also, comparisons to northern Balkans populations would not have been helpful to answer one of the primary questions being addressed, i.e. the amount of "Slavic" genetic material in the people of this part of Greece, which is different than the number of people who might have moved into the area during the "Slavic" migrations. Again, do we need to explain that the people moving from further north in the Balkans into Greece were a mixed population, and not genetically "Slav"? The people of the northern Balkans share too much genetic material with Greeks for such an analysis to be useful for answering that question, going all the way back to the Neolithic and including Bronze Age and Iron Age migrations as well as simple movements across unstable political borders, as undoubtedly happened, for example, between Albania and Greece, or between Bulgaria and Greece.

If the burning question for so many posters is which modern population is closest to, for example, the Greeks of classical Greece, or how similar those Classical Era Greeks are to Sicilians, then there is no answering that until we have a lot of ancient Greek dna from that period from multiple locations. All this speculation is useless and misleading.

Exactly, considering we don't have ancient/early medieval Greek or early medieval Slavic samples, you can only use limited approaches which are still interesting for anyone who approaches this as of historical and not nationalistic Balkan interest and if anything you get new data on the structure of the Peloponnese.

The Balkan Slavs (at least the Southeast ones) look like northern-shifted mainland Greeks more or less so a comparison with them would be much less meaningful for attempting to find some proto/very early Slavic input. Maybe the early Slavs who are responsible for much of the Slavic toponymy we see in Greece and Albania (some seems later, judging by sound changes) were already very Balkan in ancestry but in that case we can't differentiate much between those guys and later Bulgarians or Serbs contributing ancestry to Albanians and Greeks (as we know they did).

I don't know what conclusions I'm meant to draw, especially because I can't read the legend, but to be honest, since it's dated to 1830, and probably related to outdated notions of "race" I'm not really interested. I'm even less interested if it was created by this fantasist we've already discussed. Anyone can draw a map from their own fantasies

Balkan ethnography has always been disputed (quite a bit has been written on this about the region of Macedonia for example) and you can sometimes come across completely unrealistic monstrosities but that particular map looks good about language in the 19th century. Of course, it's about language, not genetics - unfortunately we don't know what the early Arvanites looked exactly genetically either and some Greek linguists have argued for Greek substrates in some Arvanite areas which might indicate some early local mixing even before their linguistic assimilation.

 

[Hauteville]

This is all I know about the specific history of the Taygetos region.

"During the era of barbarian invasions, Taygetus served as a shelter for the native population. Many of the villages in its slopes date from this period. In Medieval times, the citadel and monastery of Mystras was built on the steep slopes, and became a center of Byzantine civilizations and served as the capital of the Despotate of the Morea."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taygetus

Are Slavic tribes reported as settling near there as well? Does anyone know if they're still pretty endogamous? How close is this to Sparta? To which of the sub-groups of the Peloponnese do the people of the Sparta area belong?

The East Taygetus plot also a bit more southern than Sicilians in the intra-Peloponneso plot they made the same. I guess we Sicilians plot with the Peloponneso group made by Laconia, Messenia, Corinto, especially Laconia, who were used by Paschou et al. and there is strong overlap in the PCA of that study, and also with Messenia, Corinto ecc.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201718f1.jpg

 

[Hauteville]

The map I've posted is not wrong, there were Greek colonies in modern Albania like these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durrës

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia_(Illyria)

This map is more clear about the region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs_(English).svg

 

[LABERIA]

The map I've posted is not wrong, there were Greek colonies in modern Albania like these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durrës

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia_(Illyria)

This map is more clear about the region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs_(English).svg

And the author of the map is.....?

 

[ngc598]

I don't know what conclusions I'm meant to draw, especially because I can't read the legend, but to be honest, since it's dated to 1830, and probably related to outdated notions of "race" I'm not really interested. I'm even less interested if it was created by this fantasist we've already discussed. Anyone can draw a map from their own fantasies.

The Peloponnese map is actually from this guy, anno 1890. That's a long time after the Biedermeier epoch. He was a geographer, geologist, paleontologist and economist. This map is a by-product of a two years journey to explore the geology of the Peloponnese. That said you can be assured that he had no interest in any political or ethnic issues, but he wasn't a linguist either, so - your decision, how much you give credit to this map!

I don't know if anybody is interested or if this brings any added value to the discussion, but I offer the translation of the legend anyway:

Explanations:
<violet solid> new-greek language
<blue solid> Tsakonian dialect
<red solid> albanesian language (distribution as of today)
<red cross-hatched>Greeks and Albanese mixed
<red hatched>in the last generation [rem: actually 'human age' ~ 60-70 years] hellenized alban. territories
<yellow underlined> slavic tribes and districts & villages inhabited by Slavs in the 9th to 12th century
Cuvaes: <bold sans serife type> popular district names
Geronthron: <serife type font> Names of Dimes [rem: pl. of 'deimos', that is greek districts]
<blue dashed line> traditional borders of the Mani
<red dashed line> approximate border of the albanesian regions in the 15th century
<red roman numbers> Enclaves of the albanesian population

 

[Angela]

The Peloponnese map is actually from this guy, anno 1890. That's a long time after the Biedermeier epoch. He was a geographer, geologist, paleontologist and economist. This map is a by-product of a two years journey to explore the geology of the Peloponnese. That said you can be assured that he had no interest in any political or ethnic issues, but he wasn't a linguist either, so - your decision, how much you give credit to this map!

I don't know if anybody is interested or if this brings any added value to the discussion, but I offer the translation of the legend anyway:

Explanations:
<violet solid> new-greek language
<blue solid> Tsakonian dialect
<red solid> albanesian language (distribution as of today)
<red cross-hatched>Greeks and Albanese mixed
<red hatched>in the last generation [rem: actually 'human age' ~ 60-70 years] hellenized alban. territories
<yellow underlined> slavic tribes and districts & villages inhabited by Slavs in the 9th to 12th century
Cuvaes: <bold sans serife type> popular district names
Geronthron: <serife type font> Names of Dimes [rem: pl. of 'deimos', that is greek districts]
<blue dashed line> traditional borders of the Mani
<red dashed line> approximate border of the albanesian regions in the 15th century
<red roman numbers> Enclaves of the albanesian population

Thanks for the translation. Of course, as has already been mentioned, language doesn't equal ethnicity.

@Hauteville,
Thanks for the maps. Yes, it shows more detail, but the general picture seems to be the consensus.

@Latgal,
Thanks for the informed comment.

 

[Angela]

There is an obvious level of bias in the study as well as your handling of what should and should not be said in this thread. The fact that Arvanite were left out of the study is direct evidence of how this study is manipulated. I imagine it would have showed that there is no difference in the Peloponnese population to the Arvanite ones. Anyways, continue to daze at your own theories with studies designed to do just that.

So you've already said.

How many times does it have to be stated that the authors didn't address the issue of the genetic similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to the Albanians or the Arvanites? Do you understand what that means? It means they didn't study it. That would be another paper. They also didn't address how similar genetically these people are to the people who inhabited that land in antiquity. That would also be another paper and would, in my opinion, require ancient Greek dna.

They were trying to address the question of whether these people are Slavic and Turkish transplants. The answer seems to be no. If you can point to problems with the methodology which would call that conclusion into question, by all means share it. I'd be interested to hear it. The subjective musings of some German visitor almost two hundred years ago don't count as a scientific rebuttal.

My God, does it have to be about you even when it is obviously not about you?

What doesn't belong in this thread is a rant about the treatment of the Albanian language in Greece, or a contest about who committed the most atrocities against whom, as that is completely and totally off topic and only meant to provoke another Balkan flame war.

That applies to either or all sides. Is that clear now?

 

[last-resort]

Arvanites in the early 19th century as described by German ethnographers like Hahn were <20% of the population of the new Greek kingdom (and we have recent work done on their medieval presence as well), yet here we're supposed to think they were the most important element even of very isolated groups like the Tsakones who preserved a very Doric-influenced variant of the Koine.


Maybe the early Slavs who are responsible for much of the Slavic toponymy we see in Greece and Albania (some seems later, judging by sound changes) were already very Balkan in ancestry .....

As to Arvanites' influence on the Tsakones or the Maniots, I've pointed out that according to the Alfred Philippson map, they were not near either communities.

Regarding the second quote, as the 'very Balkan' nature of place names, perhaps the official names had a popular or more older/ancient name all along. When 'Megali Anastasova' ('Slavic') was changed to 'Nedousa' [West Tayetos] in the 1920's, the acceptance and switch over was very swift, even for the 'ex-pats' in/immigrants to America. While their immigration papers had stated their home town as being Megali Anastasova, their grave stones as early as 1929 would state Nedousa. This is anecdotal, but it suggests to me that the Nedousa name had currency well before the official change.

 

[Angela]

This link gives a scaleable map for the region. Shows relationship to Sparta, Mani peninsula (nearly due south of Nedousa)
http://peloponnisossearch.com/en/village/nedousa-village

Sparta is East Tayetos (Taygetos)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia

Link for Tsakonia region is below. The Tsakonia link states that the Tsakones were late converts to Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonia

This link is to a Swiss funded preservation project in West Tayetos. It gives a history mentioning Slavs. If the study did not show otherwise, one would think these villages were Slav. Select 'Areas' at the top row.
http://onsitepreservation.eu/en-gb/home.aspx

As to endogamous, it is a mountainous area which might limit travel. I have never heard of a feud or any other basis for one village shunning another for selection of a suitable bride

Edit: Link here describes the pagan pre-Lenten (Triodion) carnival in Nedousa (West Tayetos)
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-pa...ld-in-the-village-of-nedousa-in-56016967.html

Well, isn't that interesting. I wonder if Calabrians would be the same? Most of my husband's ancestral areas were colonized by the Achaeans of the northern Peloponnese, and by Locris right across the water (as well as Phocaea). He was always team Athens if you know what I mean, but hey, Sparta ain't bad.

I guess that's for another paper.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I personally believe that offtopic posts should be removed but that's the choice of the moderators.

Concerning the study, I haven't read it. It seems ok. But I would also agree with those who would say that the Sclavenes who invaded Greece in Middle Ages weren't Ukrainian-like genetically.
So, I would be interested to know what the results would have been if they used modern Southern or Western Slavs instead. [Personally I have atypical views about the genetic profile of the Proto-Slavs -I think they were more Western and maybe more Southern- but it's logical to follow the most accepted views, I understand it)
Always when someone tries to make a quantification there are assumptions of some short involved. It's also difficult to seperate the Slavic admixture from other types of admixture from the North (which may include Illyrian, Thracian, Celtic etc admixture in antiquity and Vlach, Albanian, Gothic, Venetian, Avar & other Eastern European Turkic, Slavic and whatnot.)

If we had ancient DNA from Classical Athens and Sparta we could quantify easily the post-classical Northern (Western and Eastern) admixture as a whole.

 

[trdbr1234]

So you've already said.

How many times does it have to be stated that the authors didn't address the issue of the genetic similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to the Albanians or the Arvanites? Do you understand what that means? It means they didn't study it. That would be another paper. They also didn't address how similar genetically these people are to the people who inhabited that land in antiquity. That would also be another paper and would, in my opinion, require ancient Greek dna.

They were trying to address the question of whether these people are Slavic and Turkish transplants. The answer seems to be no. If you can point to problems with the methodology which would call that conclusion into question, by all means share it. I'd be interested to hear it. The subjective musings of some German visitor almost two hundred years ago don't count as a scientific rebuttal.

My God, does it have to be about you even when it is obviously not about you?

What doesn't belong in this thread is a rant about the treatment of the Albanian language in Greece, or a contest about who committed the most atrocities against whom, as that is completely and totally off topic and only meant to provoke another Balkan flame war.

That applies to either or all sides. Is that clear now?

I don't really know know why you're on this tangent. Who is talking about atrocities or political disputes here?

Peloponnese is historically a major Albanian speaking area. Remnants of whom still survive today as Arvanite. It takes a great deal of effort to completely omit the Arvanite element from any study of the Peloponnese. Understand? It would have been nice to see what difference if any these populations had to each other. If there were major differences then we would have given more weight to the "arrival" theory of the Arvanites. Given what we know of the Peloponnese today however, it is very likely that even the people sampled were Arvanite today and decided to omit this detail in the study. It would also have been nice to see how the areas where Slavs settled compared to other groups.

How would samples of elders from secluded mountain tops prove or disprove any Turkish admixture in the Peloponnese population? This defies logic, doesn't it?

So now were back at what the study aimed to achieve.

As you like fantasizing, you may continue doing just that but at least accept that this study shows signs of manipulation and there is no need to criticize people that point this out.

 

[Angela]

I don't really know know why you're on this tangent. Who is talking about atrocities or political disputes here?

Peloponnese is historically a major Albanian-phone area. Remnants of whom still survive today as Arvanite. It takes a great deal of effort to completely omit the Arvanite element from any study of the Peloponnese. Understand? It would have been nice to see what difference if any these populations had to each other. If there were major differences then we would have given more weight to the "arrival" theory of the Arvanites. Given what we know of the Peloponnese today however, it is very likely that even the people sampled were Arvanite today and decided to omit this detail in the study. It would also have been nice to see how the areas where Slavs settled compared to other groups.

How would samples of elders from secluded mountain tops prove or disprove any Turkish admixture in the Peloponnese population? This defies logic, doesn't it?

So now were back at what the study aimed to achieve.

As you like fantasizing, you may continue doing just that but at least accept that this study shows signs of manipulation and there is no need to criticize people that point this out.

Laberia is the one who was talking about political disputes such as the treatment of Albanian in Greece, and that's why he got an infraction.

You're the one who's going to get one for resisting moderation.

You are not going to derail this thread about a specific scientific paper into a discussion of the similarities or lack thereof of Greeks and Albanians/Arvanites when the paper isn't about that! If you're so interested in the topic, suggest it to some labs and try to raise the money through Gofundme or something like that. Or, ask the authors if they have plans to do such a study in the future.

What kind of logic is it to assert that not addressing a topic of interest to you is BIAS? Asserting such a thing about named scientists is libel, and you could be sued. We're not going to be dragged into lawsuits like that. Stop it.

You're also insulting a team member. I'm really spoilt for choice here.

 

[Angela]

If we had ancient DNA from Classical Athens and Sparta we could quantify easily the post-classical Northern (Western and Eastern) admixture as a whole.

It would certainly clarify that particular issue indeed.

 

[last-resort]

The older woman in this video is performing a more traditional version of the pizzica.

It's not the version of their great-grandparents, but it's still descended from it.

I will not be offended if you delete this as not apt for this thread. As to lively stepping and a twirl, I came across this. It is a dance of (not dancers from) Rhodes. It is a circle dance but there is twirl at intervals, plus some lively steps. The song is apparently related to the island of Crete (*ironically)

https://youtu.be/d8RKqNKHqjI

It illustrates what one author says the song Misirlou (of Greek origin) should be danced to. Her complaint is that some have said the dance should be Cretan (*/thus the irony explained). A link to her comment and I'm done. There are links in this to the Misirlou origin and a few sound clips. (Song was featured in the US film, Pulp Fiction using a surfer rock version)

http://www.shira.net/culture/misirlou-folk-dance.htm

 

[MarkoZ]

Who is the author?

The man who created the most prestigious journal in the field of 'Indo-European studies' in the West

Certainly an authoritative source, therefore. I think the text I cited is from my personal favorite among his œuvre:

Mallory may have expurgated it from the JIES page, but perhaps they still have a few copies lying around.

 

[LABERIA]

This LABERIA character is a notorious ***** and shitposter who adds the same panoply of quotes, half-baked and out of context, in every Greek-related topic opened on various forums throughout the internet (one can look at his posting careers on forums like "the apricity" to see how obsessed he is with Greeks) and it's sad to see that he frequenlty does it on topics created even on this forum that's supposed to be somewhat strictly moderated.

We already saw the Albanian inanity concering any Greek topic in the form of other posters but this guy takes the cake.

Are you going to destroy every Greek-related topic created on this forum too, *****?

Your post is appreciated but this particular user does this in every forum he participates in (and he's participated in plenty under different names). He skirts with getting banned until the forum owners finally get tired of his bringing his Balkan Wars into every topic that concerns his various "enemies". Just letting you know since he's notorious and I can see he's done similar in this forum in the past as well.

Anyway, take care.

First of all let make clear one thing. You are member in this forum from few days. You have here three posts. The first two posts are a personal attack against me. I am member on two forums and i use this nickname. I don`t partecipate, using your words, plenty under different names.
I don`think that it`s difficult to understand that you are member of other forums with other nicknames, it`s evident.
Seems that this two facts are not a problem for the mods.

No, it isn't wrong, you just can't understand context and rely many times on outdated sources or sources that were fringy even in their own time.

Seems that all the people here like to use this word. Do you know the meaning?

Sathas (the 19th century guy who wanted to downplay the Slavic presence and argue for very early Albanian migrations south, before they are even mentioned in medieval Arbanon in Central Albania) also wrote very interesting things about the connections some Albanian tribes had with Levantine populations like the Mardaites but those were just as nonsensical and I assume you won't accept those, for example. You're also not addressing anything specific about the study itself but keep posting the same old stuff.

Arvanites in the early 19th century as described by German ethnographers like Hahn were <20% of the population of the new Greek kingdom (and we have recent work done on their medieval presence as well), yet here we're supposed to think they were the most important element even of very isolated groups like the Tsakones who preserved a very Doric-influenced variant of the Koine.

And of course Tosk Albanians (which the Arvanites are) seem very early Slavic-influenced judging by their R1a and I2 subclades as well so they too would bring in new "early Slavic"-like ancestry wherever they went.



Exactly, considering we don't have ancient/early medieval Greek or early medieval Slavic samples, you can only use limited approaches which are still interesting for anyone who approaches this as of historical and not nationalistic Balkan interest and if anything you get new data on the structure of the Peloponnese.

The Balkan Slavs (at least the Southeast ones) look like northern-shifted mainland Greeks more or less so a comparison with them would be much less meaningful for attempting to find some proto/very early Slavic input. Maybe the early Slavs who are responsible for much of the Slavic toponymy we see in Greece and Albania (some seems later, judging by sound changes) were already very Balkan in ancestry but in that case we can't differentiate much between those guys and later Bulgarians or Serbs contributing ancestry to Albanians and Greeks (as we know they did).

Balkan ethnography has always been disputed (quite a bit has been written on this about the region of Macedonia for example) and you can sometimes come across completely unrealistic monstrosities but that particular map looks good about language in the 19th century. Of course, it's about language, not genetics - unfortunately we don't know what the early Arvanites looked exactly genetically either and some Greek linguists have argued for Greek substrates in some Arvanite areas which might indicate some early local mixing even before their linguistic assimilation.

I can explain you very well that the rest of your post is totally inaccurate, but i don`t want an another Easter chocolate.
But i think that there is something very helpful in your post:

And of course Tosk Albanians (which the Arvanites are) seem very early Slavic-influenced judging by their R1a and I2 subclades as well so they too would bring in new "early Slavic"-like ancestry wherever they went.

This is pure gold. Now we know from where arrived this few slavs in Greece. Really, thank`s for your contribution here.You have to PM the author of the study and suggest to him this interesting conclusion.

 

[Maleth]

See:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201718a.html

George Stamatoyannopoulos et al:
Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks

"Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

Well, that's always what's made sense to me, so...

Interesting study, thanks for posting Angela

 

[LABERIA]

The man who created the most prestigious journal in the field of 'Indo-European studies' in the West

Certainly an authoritative source, therefore. I think the text I cited from my personal favorite of his œuvre:

Mallory may have expurgated it from the JIES page, but perhaps they still have a few copies lying around.

Sorry but under the new circumstances created, i can`t continue this discussion with you. The author of the study, explain very well that his obsession, like the rest of the greek scholars and the army of the greek members in countless of forum, is a gentelman, to whom I do not dare to mention the name, read the OP. Here nobody really know what this gentelman said. If you try to compare results of this genetic study, with the work of this scholar, in order to understand the truth, qui esplode un putiferio.