Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[Angela]

First of all let make clear one thing. You are member in this forum from few days. You have here three posts. The first two posts are a personal attack against me. I am member on two forums and i use this nickname. I don`t partecipate, using your words, plenty under different names.
I don`think that it`s difficult to understand that you are member of other forums with other nicknames, it`s evident.
Seems that this two facts are not a problem for the mods.

I can explain you very well that the rest of your post is totally inaccurate, but i don`t want an another Easter chocolate.
But i think that there is sometnig very helpful in your post:This is pure gold. Now we know from where arrived this few slavs in Greece. Really, thank`s for your contribution here.You have to PM the author of the study and suggest to him this interesting conclusion.

Thank you for your concern about questionable practices on forums.

Half the people on this forum are using nicknames that are different from the ones they use on other forums. That's not something which we, or at least I would know, or could prove, nor is it specifically against the rules, probably for that very reason. A worse practice, often engaged in on this and other forums is claiming a false ethnicity in order to be able to hide one's "bias", as perhaps Nik has done. Again, very difficult to prove. An infraction can be given for posting a flag which doesn't correspond to the place from which a poster is accessing the site. That is provable and has resulted in infractions.

 

[LABERIA]

Thank you for your concern about questionable practices on forums.

Half the people on this forum are using nicknames that are different from the ones they use on other forums. That's not something which we, or at least I would know, or could prove, nor is it specifically against the rules, probably for that very reason. A worse practice, often engaged in on this and other forums is claiming a false ethnicity in order to be able to hide one's "bias", as perhaps Nik has done. Again, very difficult to prove. An infraction can be given for posting a flag which doesn't correspond to the place from which a poster is accessing the site. That is provable and has resulted in infractions.

I think i have explained my position, nothing to add.
At my knowledge Nik is an Albanian who live in Swiss. I think he will be back and will clarify his position.
I think that you have to use your power against people who post in this thread personal attacks. Attacking a person is not the best way to convince the others that you are right.
I hope you takes into consideration that the infractions given to me are unjust.

 

[Angela]

Does anyone have at their fingertips any data about the frequency of the more "Slavic" ydna clades in the Peloponnese? That's something that might have been included in the study which would still have been within the parameters of the question raised, and could have strengthened, or weakened their argument.

Also, could someone please explain to those who still don't get it that the study does not address any possible similarity between the modern Peloponnesians and the ancient Greeks. In fact, it can't do so, because they apparently didn't have access to ancient Greek genomes.

 

[Megalophias]

King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.

This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.

 

[last-resort]

I wonder if Calabrians would be the same?

By phenotype, I am pretty much 'not from around here' in most of the US. I frequented a pizza restaurant in the US South owned by a young person from Calabria. He treated me like kin. There can be benefits.

 

[Boreas]

Indeed that is something I also observed,

cause Kapadokia was not heavily colonised, but Pontos was,
and the study gives first connection with Kappadokia,
but Pontos was another tribe Ionia and not Doric ,

I expect Pontos to be more connected with Athens Miletos and central Greece.

Pontos is a mix of Greek colonies of Ionians and Aryan-Iranian tribes,
the unification happened after Alexander and the first king was a Persian satrape Μιθριδατης Mithridates

As you said study gives first connection with Kappadokian not Pontos Greeks. The reason can be Ionic factor.

Today, 4 in the biggest 5 city which are in Turkish Blacksea region, are colony of Miletos (Trabzon, Samsun, Sinop, Giresun)

About Pontic Greek

Don't forget Georgians and other Caucausians in that region. There are still great number of muslim Georgians live in that region and in old times shifting from Georgian to Greek should be more easily then Georgian to Turk.

 

[Angela]

By phenotype, I am pretty much 'not from around here' in most of the US. I frequented a pizza restaurant in the US South owned by a young person from Calabria. He treated me like kin. There can be benefits.

Indeed, that's how I feel in ubiquitous Greek diners.

Seriously, I wouldn't say most of the U.S. The populous urban areas have a lot of people of Greek and southern Italian descent, like the northeast, New York, Pennsylvania, even Detroit, Chicago, parts of Florida. You'd fit right in.

I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's an area in Queens, New York (a borough of New York City) called Astoria, where a lot of people of Greek descent (and Italian) used to live , and some still do. I have quite a few friends with roots there. There's a certain area where it's one Greek taverna after another, interspersed with food stores etc. In the summer the tables are out on the sidewalk, there are lights, and you can here music playing.

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/MG_7690_Fotor.jpg
http://www.newgreektv.com/images/2014/september/astoriaellada2.jpg
http://www.queensbuzz.com/photos/File7982.jpg
Athens Square Park:
http://www.queensbuzz.com/photos/File7990.jpg

Other areas are Italian, with great restaurants, and still others are Croatian. The Croatian ones (usually the people are from the areas that were under Italian control between the wars) start playing music, ballo liscio we call it, after about 11 PM. I used to be a regular, so when I would walk in they'd start playing "Firenze Sogna" or Chitarra Romana.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-8b3AmBnbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP90ck1YAM0

Oh well, enough fun, I've gone off topic too.

I'll move these tomorrow, along with the dance ones.

 

[Angela]

King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.

This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.

Thank-you. That about seals the deal for me then.

 

[DuPidh]

Indeed, that's how I feel in ubiquitous Greek diners.

Seriously, I wouldn't say most of the U.S. The populous urban areas have a lot of people of Greek and southern Italian descent, like the northeast, New York, Pennsylvania, even Detroit, Chicago, parts of Florida. You'd fit right in.

I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's an area in Queens, New York (a borough of New York City) called Astoria, where a lot of people of Greek descent (and Italian) used to live , and some still do. I have quite a few friends with roots there. There's a certain area where it's one Greek taverna after another, interspersed with food stores etc. In the summer the tables are out on the sidewalk, there are lights, and you can here music playing.

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/MG_7690_Fotor.jpg
http://www.newgreektv.com/images/2014/september/astoriaellada2.jpg
http://www.queensbuzz.com/photos/File7982.jpg
Athens Square Park:
http://www.queensbuzz.com/photos/File7990.jpg

Other areas are Italian, with great restaurants, and still others are Croatian. The Croatian ones (usually the people are from the areas that were under Italian control between the wars) start playing music, ballo liscio we call it, after about 11 PM. I used to be a regular, so when I would walk in they'd start playing "Firenze Sogna" or Chitarra Romana.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-8b3AmBnbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP90ck1YAM0

Oh well, enough fun, I've gone off topic too.

I'll move these tomorrow, along with the dance ones.

Astoria no longer has the Italian, Greek flavor. Orientals are in, Arabs, and many, many yuppies who pay crazy rents.

 

[Yetos]

As you said study gives first connection with Kappadokian not Pontos Greeks. The reason can be Ionic factor.

Today, 4 in the biggest 5 city which are in Turkish Blacksea region, are colony of Miletos (Trabzon, Samsun, Sinop, Giresun)

About Pontic Greek

Don't forget Georgians and other Caucausians in that region. There are still great number of muslim Georgians live in that region and in old times shifting from Georgian to Greek should be more easily then Georgian to Turk.

Here the town I live about 30 km from my village.
is full of Fatsa Kotyora(Ordu) and Oinoe Unye people. and nearby mahala from Rizaion (Rize) and Sourmena and Ofis river
well no matter I wanted or not, I learn their culture and history.

the Georgians you say as also Russians and Lazoi as a shift many times worked vice versa,
lately after the fall of communism, came Pontic Greeks here from Sohum the ancient Διοσκουριας Byzantine Sevastopolis,
most of them were exiled from Turkey around 1870 at the Russian Turkish war,
and there are many who are not even Greeks, just 'baptised' as Greeks after the fall of Communism to find another future in another country,
as some here who know say 'there is city somewhere there that the townhall was burned by the end of USSR, and after that strangely appear 15 000 of Greek origin. but none of them spoke Pontic Greek'

Anyway Officially as pure Pontic is the area from Sinope to Kars and Rizaion nearby Laz, the ex-Trebizond empire and those who left at 1870's and 1922
unoficcially is every one from Black sea.
By what I understand with them, and from what I hear, is a strange situation since in some areas main factor is religion, and in other nationality,

It happens to met some elder people from there, who speak their language but with more Turkish vocabulary and become muslims that time,
and also happened to met Greeks who speak perfect the idiom of my area but today are Turks the Vallaxades (Wallah-ades) this summer.

I am moving away from thread.

 

[Boreas]

Here the town I live about 30 km from my village.
is full of Fatsa Kotyora(Ordu) and Oinoe Unye people. and nearby mahala from Rizaion (Rize) and Sourmena and Ofis river
well no matter I wanted or not, I learn their culture and history.

the Georgians you say as also Russians and Lazoi as a shift many times worked vice versa,
lately after the fall of communism, came Pontic Greeks here from Sohum the ancient Διοσκουριας Byzantine Sevastopolis,
most of them were exiled from Turkey around 1870 at the Russian Turkish war,
and there are many who are not even Greeks, just 'baptised' as Greeks after the fall of Communism to find another future in another country,
as some here who know say 'there is city somewhere there that the townhall was burned by the end of USSR, and after that strangely appear 15 000 of Greek origin. but none of them spoke Pontic Greek'

Anyway Officially as pure Pontic is the area from Sinope to Kars and Rizaion nearby Laz, the ex-Trebizond empire and those who left at 1870's and 1922
unoficcially is every one from Black sea.
By what I understand with them, and from what I hear, is a strange situation since in some areas main factor is religion, and in other nationality,

It happens to met some elder people from there, who speak their language but with more Turkish vocabulary and become muslims that time,
and also happened to met Greeks who speak perfect the idiom of my area but today are Turks the Vallaxades (Wallah-ades) this summer.

I am moving away from thread.

You have wisdom of Athena, I hope your path never cross with the Ares's path. :grin:

Greek Macedonia is full with immigrat Pontic Greeks. Don't forget The Pontic Greeks who forced to move Central Asia by Russia.

"In a further wave, about 100,000 Pontic Greeks, including 37,000 in the Caucasus area alone, were deported to Central Asia in 1949 during Stalin's post-war deportations."

I find that their situation is very dramatic.

 

[Nik]

@Angela
Do you still believe I was/am trying to hide my "bias" even though I clearly mentioned that I'm Albanian and get involved in topics related to Albania without considering the fact that I might get caught red handed supporting a country I claim to have no connection?

Secondly, perhaps you did not notice until now but the requirement was for Country, therefore I chose Switzerland as a Swiss citizen and resident, and I got an infraction from posting from somewhere else rather than Switzerland as if we're not allowed to travel and can post in Eupedia only when home.

On the other hand, you're trying to be neutral and cool but once in a while u lose it and direct ur anger towards the entire community of Albanians by generalizing. Perhaps u can fix that by simply addressing ur issues to the posters who go off topic. Dont get it wrong but u r developing minor symptoms of Albanophobia (joking) as I think another Albanian bringing up unrelated topics will definitely irritate u more than a Portuguese nationalist for instance. I can understand why that happens, but u as a moderator shouldnt express it at least.

@A. Papadimitriou
It's not the first time I notice that ur posts r clear, logical, and not based on hatred, in addition to thinking alike in regards to many topics. Would love to hear more from u. Cheers.

@last-resort
Take a sit, mate. There's nothing wrong or inferior to be genetically related to Albanians. Just start to think that we're all human beings who share the same region on top of everything and possibly spoke the same language before being invaded and assimilated by different so-called Indo-European tribes. So basically this fight is over "who's master is better".

And if it makes u feel better, Albanians dont wanna be genetically related to Greeks either but we see the difference in subrace mixing rather than aDNA or haplogroups.

 

[Hauteville]

King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.

This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.

It depends about R1a if it is Slavic or not. This haplogroup is also diffused even in not slavic settled areas (West Europe) that I think more likely an introgression of ancient Indoeuropean movements. I'll wait for iron age aDNA from Greece.

 

[LATGAL]

King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.

This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.

I'm not aware of the specific villages they chose but (since we're on that topic and all) some of the modern settlement in those two areas of the Argolid, the one closest to ancient Lerna (Myloi) as well as a few settlements near Franchthi were of at least partial Arvanite origin. Perhaps the authors made an attempt to choose people from traditionally Greek-speaking villages though.

Their sample for Macedonia, Nea Nikomedeia, was also a partial refugee settlement as the name points towards (not sure which area of Thrace or Asia Minor, the name points to Izmit and Bithynia) but perhaps the authors were more aware of the demographics and chose a sample more representative of Greek-speaking (or otherwise) Macedonian natives (but probably plenty of better settlements from Pieria and Emathia to choose for that), though the J1 seems a bit elevated for a purely 'native' sample.

One plus of this new paper is that it manages to avoid both potential pitfalls by using a sample that excludes both Lausanne refugees and, in many areas, any traditionally non-Greek speaking element.

 

[last-resort]

Astoria no longer has the Italian, Greek flavor. Orientals are in, Arabs, and many, many yuppies who pay crazy rents.

DuPidh: you must have a powerful telescope to see that well from 'Cuba'!

 

[last-resort]

@Angela
Do you still believe I was/am trying to hide my "bias" even though I clearly mentioned that I'm Albanian and get involved in topics related to Albania without considering the fact that I might get caught red handed supporting a country I claim to have no connection?

Secondly, perhaps you did not notice until now but the requirement was for Country,

@last-resort
Take a sit, mate. There's nothing wrong or inferior to be genetically related to Albanians. Just start to think that we're all human beings who share the same region on top of everything and possibly spoke the same language before being invaded and assimilated by different so-called Indo-European tribes. So basically this fight is over "who's master is better".

And if it makes u feel better, Albanians dont wanna be genetically related to Greeks either but we see the difference in subrace mixing rather than aDNA or haplogroups.

As to Country and ethnic advocacy, there is an easy way for you and other Albanians to publicly remove any doubt as to their bias, and that is to specify ETHNICITY. Country and Ethnicity are both available. If one is a strong (perhaps too strong) an advocate of one group, then listing Ethnicity is a way to dispel a suspicion that you are acting under a false flag. I suggest you update your profile today and add your Ethnicity. Also, you didn't declare your Albanian status on this thread.

As to 'subrace', I have no idea what that is. It is your and your fellow travelers' view that everything Greek is actually Albanian. This study has narrowed down the issue a great deal, and from my viewpoint, removed such thought from the Maniots and the Tsakones. Plus, similarity will always (within limits) be suspect due to the ancient Greek involvement with the Tosk areas of Albania.

I'll add in general, that Greek culture is so rich and diverse, that it is silly to think that any one group dominated the underlying make-up of these people. The struggle of Greeks has been finding reasons to come together. Their tendency is to find their own path and stick with it.

 

[Angela]

DuPidh: you must have a powerful telescope to see that well from 'Cuba'!

Yes, that's quite amazing! He's right about it being "yuppified", however. My daughter is sharing an apartment there with some friends, so I'm there all the time, and it's changing at an incredible rate. The restaurants and some of the stores are still there, but most of the Italians and Greeks have indeed moved out to the suburbs, as I thought I made clear. It may wind up like "Little Italy" in Manhattan, or the German area in Yorktown, or "Ukraine town" on the lower East Side. That' what happens here; neighborhoods change in the course of a generation.

 

[Angela]

@Angela
Do you still believe I was/am trying to hide my "bias" even though I clearly mentioned that I'm Albanian and get involved in topics related to Albania without considering the fact that I might get caught red handed supporting a country I claim to have no connection?

Secondly, perhaps you did not notice until now but the requirement was for Country, therefore I chose Switzerland as a Swiss citizen and resident, and I got an infraction from posting from somewhere else rather than Switzerland as if we're not allowed to travel and can post in Eupedia only when home.

On the other hand, you're trying to be neutral and cool but once in a while u lose it and direct ur anger towards the entire community of Albanians by generalizing. Perhaps u can fix that by simply addressing ur issues to the posters who go off topic. Dont get it wrong but u r developing minor symptoms of Albanophobia (joking) as I think another Albanian bringing up unrelated topics will definitely irritate u more than a Portuguese nationalist for instance. I can understand why that happens, but u as a moderator shouldnt express it at least.

@A. Papadimitriou
It's not the first time I notice that ur posts r clear, logical, and not based on hatred, in addition to thinking alike in regards to many topics. Would love to hear more from u. Cheers.

@last-resort
Take a sit, mate. There's nothing wrong or inferior to be genetically related to Albanians. Just start to think that we're all human beings who share the same region on top of everything and possibly spoke the same language before being invaded and assimilated by different so-called Indo-European tribes. So basically this fight is over "who's master is better".

And if it makes u feel better, Albanians dont wanna be genetically related to Greeks either but we see the difference in subrace mixing rather than aDNA or haplogroups.

I had no idea you were Albanian before this discussion. I see a Swiss flag with no indication of "ethnic" group and I think you're ethnic Swiss. People should fill out the "nationality" box in the settings and should do it truthfully. I highly doubt, for example, that DuPidh is Mexican or whatever he was claiming to be. Perhaps you made it clear in "Balkan" threads, but to be honest I don't usually read those threads unless there's a complaint because of the kind of political conflicts that were, imo, about to take over a thread on genetics and make logical discussion of it impossible.

I have no horse in this race, Nik, and I have no animosity toward Albanians, which I should think would be obvious from other threads on this Board. As for treating "Portuguese" people differently, I guess you never read my exchanges with the Drac brigade, although he was Spanish, not Portuguese. Obviously you don't know that I give short shrift to Italian racists too, like "Joey", who has been banned numerous times. I don't play those kind of ethnic, biased games. I try, here and in life, to treat people with respect if they treat me with respect, and to judge people by the content of their characters and by their deeds, nothing else.

The issue for me is that this is a forum meant to host logical and rational and civil discussion of genetics, archaeology, and culture, not flame wars where groups disparage one another's ancestry or bring up political grudges.

In that regard, if someone is going to dispute the findings of a scientific study, then it has to be refuted with science, not the unscientific "opinions" of people from two hundred years ago, or ethnic myths. I will also admit that I have little to no patience with people who don't read the papers whose findings they dispute, or clearly can't comprehend what they read, or attempt to misinterpret the findings in order to advance some political or social or psychological agenda.

Look, I don't know what future papers, especially papers based on ancient dna will show, but many people already have been, and in the future will be discomfited by the findings of genetics. Old beliefs are going to be shattered. That's the way it is. People can't cover their eyes and ears and refuse to understand.

I couldn't agree more about the bolded comment.

 

[Angela]

Guys, everybody back to the paper now, please, and to the issues raised in the paper, not Greek-Albanian genetic similarity, which is off-topic.

 

[Nik]

I had no idea you were Albanian before this discussion. I see a Swiss flag with no indication of "ethnic" group and I think you're ethnic Swiss. People should fill out the "nationality" box in the settings and should do it truthfully. I highly doubt, for example, that DuPidh is Mexican or whatever he was claiming to be. Perhaps you made it clear in "Balkan" threads, but to be honest I don't usually read those threads unless there's a complaint because of the kind of political conflicts that were, imo, about to take over a thread on genetics and make logical discussion of it impossible.

Look, I don't know what future papers, especially papers based on ancient dna will show, but many people already have been, and in the future will be discomfited by the findings of genetics. Old beliefs are going to be shattered. That's the way it is. People can't cover their eyes and ears and refuse to understand.

I couldn't agree more about the bolded comment.

I think I created my account in 2010 and never bothered with ethnicity. Perhaps it could have been to avoid my fellow neighbours disregarding my opinion coz of my ethnicity but truth is I don't even remember what was on my mind in 2010 nor do I care about putting my ethnicity.

I hoped such papers would have discomfited (learnt a new word) many people by now but nothing happened to the majority as once u have smth on ur mind ull die accepting the least plausible explanation for the sake of pride and hatred. Unfortunately I experienced this first hand with a Montenegrin friend who coincidentally happened to be my distant cousin which he refuted, then later got tested in family tree and found most of the matches in North Albania from the very same region his last name originates. So the logical conclusion to him was that he's a pure Slav which happened to be exactly E-V13, ancestor came as a Serb in North Albania, converted to Catholicism, his entire family are pure Balkan Dinaroids, married Albanian Catholic women for generations, then returned to Montenegro and converted back to Orthodox and became a real Serb again. Basically he went with that 0.1% chance just to continue his dream.

Long story short, don't keep ur hopes up for the majority.

With regards to this paper, I think we both agree that it has many flaws and gaps and that "Slavic" admixture could mean anything. Can't believe that academics would so confidently claim as Slavic what could be a mix of everything from early Mycenaean, Dorian, Daco-Thracian, Scythian, Viking, etc., u name it. Maybe Northern Serbia has 8-10% Slavic admixture, not the historically overpopulated Peloponnese that forced people to create colonies everywhere in the Mediterranean.