Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews. Preprint.

I second that recommendation.

Segovia is also beautiful (Disney stole their design for their castle from it, I think.), and has its own Jewish Quarter.

The view from the top over the plains is extraordinary.
Alcazar%2BTower%2C%2BSegovia%2C%2BSpain.jpg


You can also see the still used Roman aqueduct:
224711-Segovia-Aqueduct.jpg


The oldest one is in Barcelona, which is a fabulous city, dating to the 9th century, and the one in Girona is the best preserved.

Girona:
gro5018_jewish_quarter_0916_01.jpg
 
Angela said:
I second that recommendation.
Segovia is also beautiful (Disney stole their design for their castle from it, I think.), and has its own Jewish Quarter.
The view from the top over the plains is extraordinary.
Alcazar%2BTower%2C%2BSegovia%2C%2BSpain.jpg

You can also see the still used Roman aqueduct:
224711-Segovia-Aqueduct.jpg

The oldest one is in Barcelona, which is a fabulous city, dating to the 9th century, and the one in Girona is the best preserved.
Girona:
gro5018_jewish_quarter_0916_01.jpg
Click to expand...

Thanks angela ,
Looks very beautiful
Very very nice pictures:great:
we suppose to land in madrid
So toledo is close and maybe i could convince my brother( who is much less interested in history than me) to go also to segovia but barcelona is too far
Thanks for your advice
It is important to here from people who were
In those places:smile:
 
kingjohn said:
Thanks angela ,
Looks very beautiful
Very very nice pictures:great:
we suppose to land in madrid
So toledo is close and maybe i could convince my brother( who is much less interested in history than me) to go also to segovia but barcelona is too far
Thanks for your advice
It is important to here from people who were
In those places:smile:
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with Judaism, but El Escorial, the retreat of the Emperor Charles V, is a short train ride from Madrid, and is an extraordinary thing to see; difficult to imagine building such a monstrosity basically just for himself. I've always been of the opinion that in his elderly years some of his mother's mental health issues manifested themselves in him(Juana the mad).
 
Last edited:
Ashkenazim and their astounding autosomal resemblance to South Italians/Sicilians/Peloponnesian Greeks and Greek Islanders has been largely ignored by "scientists" for decades.

In nearly all studies by the same old clique, Tuscany/Northern Italy and Sardinia were used as Greco Roman reference populations on DNA studies of Ashkenazim.
South Italian and Sicilian samples were obviously and blatantly ignored over and over.

One might ask if "scientists" were looking for the actual roots of Ashkenazim wouldn't they be highly interested with Greco Roman European populations that light up on autosomal DNA closer to Ashkenazim than all other Jewish ethnic groups?

Avshalom Zoosman-Diskin's study on this all the way back in 2010 was one of the few that delved into this subject.

This new study ignores the actual history of Greco Roman Jews by including the stale "half Northern Italian/half Lebanese" modeling that they call "plausible."

Jews lived in southern Italian peninsula/Sicily and the Greek Islands since the times of Magna Graecia.
A "scientist" can not just ignore the history of these Jewish communities in their work.
Quite a coincidence that Ashkenazim ancestors were living in Calarbia for likely 2300 years and at least 1600, and Ashkenazim just happen to massively overlap with them on an Autosomal level...


Maybe we need to start asking if "South Italians and Sicilians" are "plausibly" half Lebanese and half Northern Italian and ignore their known history?

Can we also change the maps and brand South Italy/Sicily as part of the new-founded "Northern Levant?"
 
You have until 10 AM to get rid of that avatar or you're banned.

So everyone is clear, violent images will not be tolerated.
 
"You have until 10 AM to get rid of that avatar or you're banned.

So everyone is clear, violent images will not be tolerated. "

My image is that of my range gun that I use for sports shooting.

It's called the Hellpup and made in Poland.
I'm NOT posting a violent image at all.
I'm an NRA range instructor and retired law federal law enforcement.

Wouldn't it have been more fair and reasonable to ask me about my avatar photo before jumping to such a wild conclusion?
Seems like bullying and outlandish behavior on your part.
Are you from NYC or some hard left blue city that has zero respect for the 2nd amendment?
 
5150 said:
Ashkenazim and their astounding autosomal resemblance to South Italians/Sicilians/Peloponnesian Greeks and Greek Islanders has been largely ignored by "scientists" for decades.

In nearly all studies by the same old clique, Tuscany/Northern Italy and Sardinia were used as Greco Roman reference populations on DNA studies of Ashkenazim.
South Italian and Sicilian samples were obviously and blatantly ignored over and over.

One might ask if "scientists" were looking for the actual roots of Ashkenazim wouldn't they be highly interested with Greco Roman European populations that light up on autosomal DNA closer to Ashkenazim than all other Jewish ethnic groups?

Avshalom Zoosman-Diskin's study on this all the way back in 2010 was one of the few that delved into this subject.

This new study ignores the actual history of Greco Roman Jews by including the stale "half Northern Italian/half Lebanese" modeling that they call "plausible."

Jews lived in southern Italian peninsula/Sicily and the Greek Islands since the times of Magna Graecia.
A "scientist" can not just ignore the history of these Jewish communities in their work.
Quite a coincidence that Ashkenazim ancestors were living in Calarbia for likely 2300 years and at least 1600, and Ashkenazim just happen to massively overlap with them on an Autosomal level...


Maybe we need to start asking if "South Italians and Sicilians" are "plausibly" half Lebanese and half Northern Italian and ignore their known history?

Can we also change the maps and brand South Italy/Sicily as part of the new-founded "Northern Levant?"
Click to expand...

I wonder what is this obsession some Americans have with southern Italians: virtually every study models them as a mixture of caucasus-related ancestry, steppe and EEF, that is extremely similar to groups that lived in Europe since the BA at least, whereas ashkenazi are modelled as a tripartite mixture of southern European, northern European and Levantine; neither southern Italians and Sicilians are half nothern Italian an half Lebanese nor are Ashkenazi a sort of group of Calabrians converted to Judaism. Even the last study found that Ashkenazi could be modelled as most with 66% southern Italian-like admixture and the rest is Lebanese AND Russian-like admixture, thus there is not a "massively autosomal overlap", since 1/3 of difference is not trivial.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
I wonder what is this obsession some Americans have with southern Italians: virtually every study models them as a mixture of caucasus-related ancestry, steppe and EEF, that is extremely similar to groups that lived in Europe since the BA at least, whereas ashkenazi are modelled as a tripartite mixture of southern European, northern European and Levantine; neither southern Italians and Sicilians are half nothern Italian an half Lebanese nor are Ashkenazi a sort of group of Calabrians converted to Judaism. Even the last study found that Ashkenazi could be modelled as most with 66% southern Italian-like admixture and the rest is Lebanese AND Russian-like admixture, thus there is not a "massively autosomal overlap", since 1/3 of difference is not trivial.
Click to expand...

The answer is yes. It is somewhat an obsession with Southern Italians but it also points to something much deeper in certain segments of American Nordicist/Aryan type movements; a strong anti Jewish sentiment.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
I wonder what is this obsession some Americans have with southern Italians: virtually every study models them as a mixture of caucasus-related ancestry, steppe and EEF, that is extremely similar to groups that lived in Europe since the BA at least, whereas ashkenazi are modelled as a tripartite mixture of southern European, northern European and Levantine; neither southern Italians and Sicilians are half northern Italian an half Lebanese nor are Ashkenazi a sort of group of Calabrians converted to Judaism. Even the last study found that Ashkenazi could be modelled as most with 66% southern Italian-like admixture and the rest is Lebanese AND Russian-like admixture, thus there is not a "massively autosomal overlap", since 1/3 of difference is not trivial.
Click to expand...

He was already banned for having an avatar as a gun and his post expunged, and you thought it was a good idea to republish it?

Why? Why dignify that kind of stupidity with a response? You just give their views more airtime.

Ignore them and they go away. No need to point out the stupidity of their reasoning, if one can use that word for it: it's crystal clear, and we've done it many times.

It's your choice, of course. Fwiw, I agree with Palermo: it has a lot to do with antisemitism, when it isn't because of personal family and mental health issues. Unfortunately, there's an epidemic of mental health issues among younger people. It's what happens when "the center doesn't hold".
 
Menachem said:
I think this clearly shows there was a Khazar-contribution. There's more on Eurogenes, but the levels of Siberian are far too high to be explained by Eastern European admixture (unless there was some secret medieval Finnic kingdom in Central Europe). Two groups of Jews, the Zarphatic (ie French Jews) and the Ashkenazic (ie Steppe Jews) merging. Explains why some Ashkenazim are so light too.
Click to expand...

Why Khazar and not pre-Khazar?
 

[TD="class: multiheader, align: center"]Target[/TD]
[TD="class: multiheader, colspan: 2, align: center"]Distance[/TD]
[TD="class: multisources"]Polish
[/TD]
[TD="class: multisources"]Sephardic_Jew
[/TD]

[TD="class: multitargets, align: right"]Ashkenazi_Poland[/TD]
[TD="class: multidistance, bgcolor: #777777"]0.01003676[/TD]
[TD="class: nonselectable multidistchart"]•
[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #456094, align: right"]16.6[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #7FD5F3, align: right"]83.4[/TD]

[TD="class: multitargets, align: right"]Ashkenazi_Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="class: multidistance, bgcolor: #777777"]0.01030672[/TD]
[TD="class: nonselectable multidistchart"]•
[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #456399, align: right"]18.8[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #7BD1F2, align: right"]81.2[/TD]

[TD="class: multitargets, align: right"]Ashkenazi_Russia[/TD]
[TD="class: multidistance, bgcolor: #777777"]0.01525090[/TD]
[TD="class: nonselectable multidistchart"]•
[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #44649B, align: right"]19.4[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #7AD0F1, align: right"]80.6[/TD]

[TD="class: multitargets, align: right"]Ashkenazi_Germany[/TD]
[TD="class: multidistance, bgcolor: #777777"]0.01579246[/TD]
[TD="class: nonselectable multidistchart"]•
[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #455985, align: right"]10.2[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #89DEF7, align: right"]89.8[/TD]

[TD="class: multitargets, align: right"]Ashkenazi_Lithuania[/TD]
[TD="class: multidistance, bgcolor: #777777"]0.01726847[/TD]
[TD="class: nonselectable multidistchart"]•
[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #456297, align: right"]17.8[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #7DD3F3, align: right"]82.2[/TD]

[TD="class: multitargets, align: right"]Ashkenazi_Belarussia[/TD]
[TD="class: multidistance, bgcolor: #777777"]0.01758130[/TD]
[TD="class: nonselectable multidistchart"]•
[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #456399, align: right"]18.8[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #7BD1F2, align: right"]81.2[/TD]

[TD="class: multitargets, align: right"]Average[/TD]
[TD="class: multidistance, bgcolor: #777777"]0.01437277[/TD]
[TD="class: nonselectable multidistchart"]•
[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #456195, align: right"]16.9[/TD]
[TD="class: multiresult, bgcolor: #7ED4F3, align: right"]83.1[/TD]

Pre Slavic Ashkenazi Jews seem to be pretty much like Sephardic Jews.
 
Given it's only about 500 years ago, the best test to use would be IBD analysis.
 
Extremely interesting twitter post from Shai Carmi where he explains all the changes they made to the paper.

Among the more interesting points is that another look at the possibilities shows that Northern Italy and Greece also have good "fits" as the source of the Southern European ancestry in the Ashkenazim. One might think they read our comments.

How low the amount of Middle Eastern in them appears in some models is also quite amazing, and the fact that the effective population size remained at around 1000 people for so long.

I wish all authors would highlight important changes in their published papers from the pre-print as he has done.

https://twitter.com/ShaiCarmi/status/1598000243941203968
 
Angela said:
Extremely interesting twitter post from Shai Carmi where he explains all the changes they made to the paper.

Among the more interesting points is that another look at the possibilities shows that Northern Italy and Greece also have good "fits" as the source of the Southern European ancestry in the Ashkenazim. One might think they read our comments.

How low the amount of Middle Eastern in them appears in some models is also quite amazing, and the fact that the effective population size remained at around 1000 people for so long.

I wish all authors would highlight important changes in their published papers from the pre-print as he has done.

https://twitter.com/ShaiCarmi/status/1598000243941203968
Click to expand...

Good point, I saw that as well (the Green component in the admixture models). Somebody needs to tell Kanye West about this paper and all his mentors.
 
Angela said:
Extremely interesting twitter post from Shai Carmi where he explains all the changes they made to the paper.

Among the more interesting points is that another look at the possibilities shows that Northern Italy and Greece also have good "fits" as the source of the Southern European ancestry in the Ashkenazim. One might think they read our comments.

How low the amount of Middle Eastern in them appears in some models is also quite amazing, and the fact that the effective population size remained at around 1000 people for so long.

I wish all authors would highlight important changes in their published papers from the pre-print as he has done.

https://twitter.com/ShaiCarmi/status/1598000243941203968
Click to expand...

The ones on Anthrogenica says the exact opposite, and indeed some of them have been credited in the paper as the ones that have come up with the idea to check whether the AJ communities in Germany and France appear closer to the Erfurt-ME than Erfurt-EU.
What I have noticed is that usually the ones with more Russian-like admixture are those with a higher Lebanese-like admixture, which suggests heavily that it is to an extent an artefact unless only those individuals with less southern European-like admixture mixed with north east Europeans.
Admixture results depend heavily on the source pops selected, and the paper does mention that and presents a range of plausible models, all involving a south east EU source (Italian or Greek, and "Italian" ranging from south to north), a north east EU source and a Levantine source, as we already knew; the conclusions in my view start to be disputable when the authors read too literally into the models heavily suggesting that the ancestors of the ashkenazi Jews originated in south Italy and, having their cake and eating it too, suggesting that there is also considerable middle eastern admixture in Italy (especially in the south) which hides some of the admixture in ashkenazi Jews.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
The ones on Anthrogenica says the exact opposite, and indeed some of them have been credited in the paper as the ones that have come up with the idea to check whether the AJ communities in Germany and France appear closer to the Erfurt-ME than Erfurt-EU.
What I have noticed is that usually the ones with more Russian-like admixture are those with a higher Lebanese-like admixture, which suggests heavily that it is to an extent an artefact unless only those individuals with less southern European-like admixture mixed with north east Europeans.
Admixture results depend heavily on the source pops selected, and the paper does mention that and presents a range of plausible models, all involving a south east EU source (Italian or Greek, and "Italian" ranging from south to north), a north east EU source and a Levantine source, as we already knew; the conclusions in my view start to be disputable when the authors read too literally into the models heavily suggesting that the ancestors of the ashkenazi Jews originated in south Italy and, having their cake and eating it too, suggesting that there is also considerable middle eastern admixture in Italy (especially in the south) which hides some of the admixture in ashkenazi Jews.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I don't follow. Shai Carmi wrote the twitter post. Just follow the link. I think he knows what he said in his own paper. If people at anthrogenica maintain he said something different, then clearly they're delusional, which doesn't at all surprise me.
 
As interesting as the paper may be for the history of the Ashkenazim from the 1200s forward, it is less interesting for the formation of the Ashkenazi ethnic group.

The only way this is all going to be settled is to compare genomes from Israel from, say, the time of the Maccabees to the end of the first century A.D. to these medieval samples. Then we'll know.
 
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