Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?

MOESAN. Possibly, I agree with your line of thinking. Somehow the Balts looks have caught this before us, namely, they developed their own Indo-European derived language before the first Indo-European Germanics.

SLRD-map.jpg
 
Snp F1583 is apparently derived in one of many P109+ Geno2 results. It is in the FTDNA catalog for P109+ customers.

Unfortunately F2711 and CTS9875 are not in the catalog; they have potential for dividing P109+ as well.


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Kenneth Nordtvedt
 
I am starting more and more to believe that this has nothing to do with the goths. After some research on public data on the areas around south-east albania/north-west greece I came up with some approximate percentages:

I1 9%
I2b 4%
I2a2b 15% (extremely high for this rare hg)

which totals for some 30% of "celtic/nordic" dna. Out of 20% r1b of the area, around 4% is celtic, which shoots the percentage up even higher. This is an Illyrian tribe, indicating a back-migration wave from north/west europe into the balkans. They have created a founding circle, pushing the more pelasgian E v-13 north into the mountains of albania and south into the peloponesus.
 
I am starting more and more to believe that this has nothing to do with the goths. After some research on public data on the areas around south-east albania/north-west greece I came up with some approximate percentages:

I1 9%
I2b 4%
I2a2b 15% (extremely high for this rare hg)

which totals for some 30% of "celtic/nordic" dna. Out of 20% r1b of the area, around 4% is celtic, which shoots the percentage up even higher. This is an Illyrian tribe, indicating a back-migration wave from north/west europe into the balkans. They have created a founding circle, pushing the more pelasgian E v-13 north into the mountains of albania and south into the peloponesus.

Finally, reason to say that the illyrians where initially central european and not balkan people, like it stated in the macedonian-illyrian wars
 
Finally, reason to say that the illyrians where initially central european and not balkan people, like it stated in the macedonian-illyrian wars

well, that also needs specification. The 20-30% seed/elite that gave them their IE language was central european. The 70% Illyrian bulk was still local "indigenous" balkan population with E v-13, J2b, old R1b, and G2a. That's how you get an IE language with central european substrata that is so different from anything else that it sits on its own branch.
 
well, that also needs specification. The 20-30% seed/elite that gave them their IE language was central european. The 70% Illyrian bulk was still local "indigenous" balkan population with E v-13, J2b, old R1b, and G2a. That's how you get an IE language with central european substrata that is so different from anything else that it sits on its own branch.

but G2a4 (a or b, unsure) in the alps is completly different from G2a4 ( a or b ) in Etruscans and balkan peoples. oetzi was of the G2a found in the alps. His marker is from the caucasus, terek river valley areas ( maybe even south ossetian ) and not the south caucasus of the armenian, south georgian areas .

There is hardly any E-v13 in the north, IIRC less than 4 % lowering to 2%
 
Something has been bothering me for some time because of the lack of detailed Y-DNA data in the Balkans. There is an unusually high percentage of typically Germanic haplogroups (I1, I2b, R1b and R1a) in Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, Serbia, and to a lower extent Bosnia-Herzegovina. The combined studies I used to create the table of Y-DNA frequencies totalled an amazing 10% of I1 in Macedonia and 4% of I2b in Serbia. The Pericic et al. study of the Balkans found 5% of I1 among Herzegovinians, Serbs, Kosovar Albanians and Macedonians.

If only I could get a detailed analysis of R1b subclades and R1a STR markers in that region, I would be able to confirm whether the four haplogroups came together as part of a major Germanic migration. The only one I can think of are the Visigoths in the late 4th century. They started their invasion of the Roman Empire from what is now Moldova, another known hotspot of haplogroup I1 outside the traditional Germanic homeland.

Some people have hypothesised that I1 originated in South-East Europe, or that it once covered most of eastern and northern Europe, before the Neolithic and Indo-European migrations. But STR markers tell a different story. I1 is a young haplogroup whose members descend from a common ancestor who lived barely 4500 years ago, in the early Bronze Age, not during the Paleolithic. So I1 cannot be indigenous to the Balkans and Moldova. It came fairly recently, after the Bronze Age. Considering its point of origin in northern Germany and southern Scandinavia, I cannot think of any other possible source as a Germanic one. As there has been no massive Germanic migrations to the Balkans in Medieval times or later, the most likely period is late Roman Empire.

The Balkans have the most diverse array of R1a lineages in the world. Some have seen it as a sign that R1a originated there during the Paleolithic, then moved to the Indian subcontinent and Central Asia via the Eurasian steppe. I think that part of the genetic diversity within R1a in the Balkans is simply due to the fact that the region lies at the receiving end of the countless migrations from the steppes (see 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian steppes to Europe).

There is certainly too much R1a in the Balkans for it to be all Germanic. In fact, I think that the Visigoths (or any other Germanic tribe that settled there) were most likely to carry 20 to 35% of R1a and perhaps 20 to 30% of I1, 3 to 8% of I2b and 35 to 60% of R1b. If the average I1 for the southern Balkans is 5%, then we can expect only about 4 or 5% of R1a to be Germanic.

Not all R1b should be Germanic either. Macedonia and Albania combined have about 15% of R1b, out of which only about 5 or 6% are probably Germanic. The rest would have come during the early Indo-European invasion of Europe via the Balkans and the Danube basin. Later migrations (from the Scythians onwards) would have brought mostly R1a though.
R1a is not Germanic, not even by a long shot. R1a is the Indo European group, typical for Slavs and in Pakistan and India
R1b is also not Germanic, just some branches. R1b in the Balkan is either old local R1b from the Thrachains, also observed in Armenia,Greece,Albania,Anadola,Central Asia that has nothing to do with Germanics or R1b typcial for Romans that also have nothing to do with Germanics
I1 in the Balkan is either really old, or maybe came with Bulgars and other horse warriors
I2b is really small.
So no Germanics in the Balkan, also Bulgaria and Macedonia and big part of Romania and small part of Turkey is East Balkan, Albania and former Yugoslavia is West Balkan, South Balkan is only Greece.
The R1b in the Balkan is not Germanic, R1a is not Germanic at all nowhere in the world. I do not believe Albania and Macedonia/Bulgaria have 5-6 % germanic 1-2% maybe who knows.
 

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