GEDMatch HarappaWorld Gedmatch, post and compare your admixtures to ancient and contemporary.

My guess is that your haplogroup may be descended from the tribe Severians. They were settled in the eastern Balkan Mountains to guard the Bulgar-Byzantine frontier. Earlier they were just where your two matches in Ukraine are located. How recent relatives are they? How common is blond hair in Istanbul and Anatolia?

i think blonde hair and blue eyes or a combo of one or the other is more common than people think in turkey

Well said, between East Blacksea/Pontus and people who has Balkan origin, it is very common. But most of blond is also dark blond. There are huge difference between when they kid and grow up.

But I am the Uruk-hai in the my elvish father family. :grin:
 
My guess is that your haplogroup may be descended from the tribe Severians. They were settled in the eastern Balkan Mountains to guard the Bulgar-Byzantine frontier. Earlier they were just where your two matches in Ukraine are located. How recent relatives are they? How common is blond hair in Istanbul and Anatolia?

Thanks for info about Severians.

I am L366, fifth blue from the top. I guess somewehere between Eastern Carpats and Pomeria fit me.
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My relatives are Sephardi Jews. I consider myself Neapolitan for the most part. I have pictures of My Great Great Grandparents form the Turkish side though, but I cant find them.
 
My relatives are Sephardi Jews. I consider myself Neapolitan for the most part. I have pictures of My Great Great Grandparents form the Turkish side though, but I cant find them.

Which is exactly the connection between Sephardi Jews and Neapolitans? Neapolitans have a very strong identity. I struggle to see how someone who wasn't born and raised there and he's not even fully Neapolitan can consider himself Neapolitan. But probably that's just me.
 
Which is exactly the connection between Sephardi Jews and Neapolitans? Neapolitans have a very strong identity. I struggle to see how someone who wasn't born and raised there and he's not even fully Neapolitan can consider himself Neapolitan. But probably that's just me.

maybe they meant neopolitan in the sense that they're strawberry vanilla and chocolate?
 
My Ancestry is 50% Neapolitan, English-Scottish 25%, and Ashkenazim/Sephardi 25%. My Dad is Full Italian, I consider myself Italian. My Last name is Salerno.
 
My Ancestry is 50% Neapolitan, English-Scottish 25%, and Ashkenazim/Sephardi 25%. My Dad is Full Italian, I consider myself Italian. My Last name is Salerno.

Salerno is definitely a common southern Italian surname. I see, so you identify with your paternal ancestry. Do you speak Italian and Neapolitan?

maybe they meant neopolitan in the sense that they're strawberry vanilla and chocolate?

More pastiera, sfogliatella and babà.

Is this your father, right?

 
I dont know where the Salerno family (Paternal Great Grandmother Zizza) came from, but my Grandmothers family DiGiacomo was from Candida, and Baldasaro from Naples.

No, I cant speak Italian, I think my Great Grandparents all did. I have no idea about the dialect.
 
My Ancestry is 50% Neapolitan, English-Scottish 25%, and Ashkenazim/Sephardi 25%. My Dad is Full Italian, I consider myself Italian. My Last name is Salerno.

I went to school with a kid who was Neapolitan with the last name Salerno. Any family from New Jersey that you are aware of?
 
It doesn't surprise me that half-Italian-American people identify as "Italian". My younger relatives here are mostly only half "Italian", and yet they identify in the same way. It's an "American" thing. It seems to me that people here identify with the most "recent" immigrant nationality, because usually the rest is a jumble. Also, the Italians have a habit of "taking over" in terms of food, family structure and traditions etc. :)

What surprises me is that someone with maternal Jewish ancestry wouldn't also identify as Jewish, given that being Jewish, at least since Talmudic times, is dependent on the mother's ancestry. I've never seen that, but it's possible, of course.
 
^ Because 2 reasons. Its my Mothers paternal father that is Jewish, and my mother was adopted by a different Father.
 
Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.

Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.

italian_states_1815.jpg


Even today ask a Neapolitan are you Italian? - No I'm Neapolitan

Majority of South Italians are of Greek, Iberian, Carthaginian/Jewish, Aberesche and as well Native Mediterranean descent through the Neolithic with little influence from the North other than recent cultural unification.
 
it seems that the cage has been reopened. :LOL:

Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.

Because Jews weren't originally from Italy, that's very simple. Yours is a perfect example of wrong argument based on an incorrect starting point/assumption.

Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.

Calabrese have never spoken Arabic.
 
I have to say I've rarely seen so much incorrect information in one post as in seanp's post #355. For any unsuspecting newcomer reading it, just disregard. If anyone wants to read fact based discussions of Ashkenazi/Sephardi ethnogenesis use the search engine to find the relevant threads.

@Pax, The whole thing is too ridiculous to discuss in depth. The only hypothesis for Ashkenazi ethnogenesis that ever included Italians proposed that the Ashkenazim were formed by the admixture following the fall of the Roman Empire with some Italian women before they left for the Rhineland. Since there is no IBD sharing between the two groups that now seems highly unlikely. The proposal in the prior thread is even more far fetched than that one, because even if it were true, it would say nothing about the Jews of North Africa, the Levant, the Near East etc. etc. Also, some people don't at all understand the difference between genetic and cultural identity and political borders.

They also, I'm sorry to say, should not take the opinions of most Italians of the diaspora, descendants in some cases many generations removed from people who were almost illiterate when they left their regions, about Italian history or language or ethnogenesis or identity as dispositive. I don't mean any disrespect or disparagement of them by saying so; I married a man of whom this was true. He didn't even know the towns of his ancestors, much less any of the language or history. The only reason he once set foot in his ancestral villages is because I thought it was a pity his family didn't have the information, investigated, found them, and nagged until he agreed to go. :) I thought it was important for the children to have another "anchor" in terms of identity, not just mine or their "American" one. I felt badly that they identified so much with "my" Italy, and not their father's.
 
Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.

Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.

italian_states_1815.jpg


Even today ask a Neapolitan are you Italian? - No I'm Neapolitan

Majority of South Italians are of Greek, Iberian, Carthaginian/Jewish, Aberesche and as well Native Mediterranean descent through the Neolithic with little influence from the North other than recent cultural unification.

once the congress of vienna was settled the italian states ( see map in link below ) lost the majority of their jews to the other realms of the hapsburg empire ,
There was far more opotunities to make money in Vienna and prague than in Milan or Venice ( murano glass was shut down by the austrians and prague became the glass capital )

Of the 20000 jews in lombardy and Veneto in 1815 ..........the hapsburg dispersed many of them to Piedmont and Modena/romagna ............once all was settled by 1834 the census was only 7830 jews in lombard-Venetia "kingdom", over 5000 went north of the alps and the remainder preferred to go south ( esp. Tuscany Legnano )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna

EDIT - According to the Ethnographic map of Karl von Czoernig-Czernhausen, issued by the
k.u.k. Administration of Statistics in 1855, the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia had a population of 5,024,117 people, consisting of the following ethnic groups: 4,625,746 Italians; 351,805 Friulians; 12,084 Germans (Cimbrians in Venetia); 26,676 Slovenians and 7,806 Jews.

7806 Jews
 
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Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.

Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.

italian_states_1815.jpg


Even today ask a Neapolitan are you Italian? - No I'm Neapolitan

Majority of South Italians are of Greek, Iberian, Carthaginian/Jewish, Aberesche and as well Native Mediterranean descent through the Neolithic with little influence from the North other than recent cultural unification.

Jews are not from Italy, they might be close in Gedmatch calculators (Ashkenazi and Sephardics) but it stems more likely from a neolithic source or there is the theory that the reason Southern Italians and Jews are very close is due to the Greeks, during the Hellenistic period. Both Jews and Southern Italians have some Greek Y-dna and Mt-dna but further research needs to be done to confirm or see IF this is viable. But to a degree what you are saying has some truth in it, there is definite Italians (me) that do descend from Jewish converts in the inquisition period, BigY and snp testing along with very close str markers show this, to which percentage we are not sure in total, maybe 1-2% of Southern Italians descend from Jewish converts, this too needs more work and research.

That is not true that Italian did not exist, throughout the entire peninsula some form of Vulgar Latin which would become Italian was spoken, yes it is true that Greek was spoken in certain areas until the end of the middle ages and still certain words in dialect reflect Greek words and not latin. And there is still Salento and Griko that exist which are Greek, and Arbereshe is from the the Albanian villages formed for the Albanian refugees, they kept up their Albanian traditions and also adopted Italian ones. As for Arabic it is was only spoken in Sicily and was the hybridized Siculo-Arabic which Maltese still speaks today, like Greek Arabic derived words still exist in local dialects, it may vary from one side of the island to the other, I can say we have quite a few in my village.

Southern Italians are primarily Italic and Neolithic Farmer, with a nice chunk of Greek and other minor influences, it depends from person to person.
 
Just because they were uneducated, and lost their identity does not make them any less Italian Genetically. Im not, nor did I mean to imply a social identification. In modern day Italy, my family would find very similar people genetic wise, more so than anywhere else on Earth, thus they are Italian in the modern sense.

Maybe I should say Im a Mixed Italian-American.....
 

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