How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Dianatomia]

Let's try this from a different perspective and ask ourselves the following question. If I2a where associated with the Slavic arrival in the Balkans, in which populations would you expect it to reach the highest levels?

I would say the following.
-It should reach maximum level in South Slavs. More so in the north than in the South, because as the Slavs advanced, they absorbed locals.
-Albania and Greece should have some in low levels.
-In Greece it should be highest in Northern Greece, especially among Slavophones and Pomacs. The Greek Islands should have the least I2a.
-Southern Italy should have almost none, because Greeks colonized the region before the south Slavic expansion. (Remember that a considerable number of Byzantine Greeks migrated to Italy also)
-Cyprus should have almost none of it.

In analyzing the data. We can see just that. I2a reaches the maximum in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia(38-60%). It decreases to around 20% in the FYR of Macedonia and Bulgaria. Northern Greece has 16%. The rest of mainland Greece has something around 8%, while the Aegean Islands have 3%. Southern Italy and Sicily have something like 1-2.5% of I2a. Indicating that the Ancient Greek population may not have had I2a. (Note: Greeks from Magna Graecia came from Southern Greece which now has 9% of I2a)

The deal breaker is Cyprus. It has something like 8% of I2a which is more or less the same with that of mainland Greece.

Yet, most of the data is incomplete. So we can get a better image in the future. There are strong indications though, that there is a clear link between I2a and the medieval expansion of the South Slavs as is described by historical data.

 

[Yetos]

Let's try this from a different perspective and ask ourselves the following question. If I2a where associated with the Slavic arrival in the Balkans, in which populations would you expect it to reach the highest levels?

I would say the following.
-It should reach maximum level in South Slavs. More so in the north than in the South, because as the Slavs advanced, they absorbed locals.
-Albania and Greece should have some in low levels.
-In Greece it should be highest in Northern Greece, especially among Slavophones and Pomacs. The Greek Islands should have the least I2a.
-Southern Italy should have almost none, because Greeks colonized the region before the south Slavic expansion. (Remember that a considerable number of Byzantine Greeks migrated to Italy also)
-Cyprus should have almost none of it.

In analyzing the data. We can see just that. I2a reaches the maximum in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia(38-60%). It decreases to around 20% in the FYR of Macedonia and Bulgaria. Northern Greece has 16%. The rest of mainland Greece has something around 8%, while the Aegean Islands have 3%. Southern Italy and Sicily have something like 1-2.5% of I2a. Indicating that the Ancient Greek population may not have had I2a. (Note: Greeks from Magna Graecia came from Southern Greece which now has 9% of I2a)

The deal breaker is Cyprus. It has something like 8% of I2a which is more or less the same with that of mainland Greece.

Yet, most of the data is incomplete. So we can get a better image in the future. There are strong indications though, that there is a clear link between I2a and the medieval expansion of the South Slavs as is described by historical data.

Yes but the same results could have in case that we consider I2a as Thracian, especially the Triballi Thracian

meaning that if I2a was before Slavic expansion to south, then it could be a mark of Triballi Thracians,
and the results in Greece Albania Bulgaria and Cyprus will be the same as also in Italy,

so a better Idea is to find out from where exactly it came if entered, or where did it expand?

if it came from North, from Bohemia East Germany etc, then surely is connected with the movement of Serbs,
But if it came from Romania Ucraine ? then with who? Scythians? Sarmates?

and if it is autochthonus and expand in Romania-ucraine then we might consider it as Thracian

the case that Bosnia Croatia Serbia montenegro today speak Slavic language proves nothing, cause the same I2a Hg people could speak another language before, and accept the Cyrillic.

If I2a Din S is primary Slavic then it should be also high in Bulgaria due to Severi especially in the lands west of Veliko Tyrnovo until Sofia land of Serdi (between Sofia Phillipoupolis Romania Ryce)

except if we enter the theory that primary Slavic R1a entered in greece, slavonising each in it past and become Greek in the end? !!! the R1a of Pindus mountains from Makedonia to Locris,
But then how come Magna Grecia has High R1a? if that R1a in Greece is Slavic?
and Locris never had Slavophones

 

[Gosh]

Let's try this from a different perspective and ask ourselves the following question. If I2a where associated with the Slavic arrival in the Balkans, in which populations would you expect it to reach the highest levels? I would say the following. -It should reach maximum level in South Slavs. More so in the north than in the South, because as the Slavs advanced, they absorbed locals. -Albania and Greece should have some in low levels. -In Greece it should be highest in Northern Greece, especially among Slavophones and Pomacs. The Greek Islands should have the least I2a. -Southern Italy should have almost none, because Greeks colonized the region before the south Slavic expansion. (Remember that a considerable number of Byzantine Greeks migrated to Italy also) -Cyprus should have almost none of it. In analyzing the data. We can see just that. I2a reaches the maximum in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia(38-60%). It decreases to around 20% in the FYR of Macedonia and Bulgaria. Northern Greece has 16%. The rest of mainland Greece has something around 8%, while the Aegean Islands have 3%. Southern Italy and Sicily have something like 1-2.5% of I2a. Indicating that the Ancient Greek population may not have had I2a. (Note: Greeks from Magna Graecia came from Southern Greece which now has 9% of I2a) The deal breaker is Cyprus. It has something like 8% of I2a which is more or less the same with that of mainland Greece. Yet, most of the data is incomplete. So we can get a better image in the future. There are strong indications though, that there is a clear link between I2a and the medieval expansion of the South Slavs as is described by historical data.

This is a good way of thinking!!!

Slavic migrations had two main directions and one "semi-direction". Eastern direction went from Carpathian mountains down to the south as a result of movement today's Bulgarian population. Western direction went through today's Austria avoiding Pannonian basin which was under Avarian control. It was the path of Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian tribes. And third, "semi-direction" was the result of Slavic migrations from the region of today's Hungary under the Avarian pressure. This route had main impact on the region of northern Croatia, northern Serbia and northern Bosnia.

 

[how yes no 3]

Let's try this from a different perspective and ask ourselves the following question. If I2a where associated with the Slavic arrival in the Balkans, in which populations would you expect it to reach the highest levels?

I would say the following.
-It should reach maximum level in South Slavs. More so in the north than in the South, because as the Slavs advanced, they absorbed locals.
-Albania and Greece should have some in low levels.
-In Greece it should be highest in Northern Greece, especially among Slavophones and Pomacs. The Greek Islands should have the least I2a.
-Southern Italy should have almost none, because Greeks colonized the region before the south Slavic expansion. (Remember that a considerable number of Byzantine Greeks migrated to Italy also)
-Cyprus should have almost none of it.

In analyzing the data. We can see just that. I2a reaches the maximum in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia(38-60%). It decreases to around 20% in the FYR of Macedonia and Bulgaria. Northern Greece has 16%. The rest of mainland Greece has something around 8%, while the Aegean Islands have 3%. Southern Italy and Sicily have something like 1-2.5% of I2a. Indicating that the Ancient Greek population may not have had I2a. (Note: Greeks from Magna Graecia came from Southern Greece which now has 9% of I2a)

The deal breaker is Cyprus. It has something like 8% of I2a which is more or less the same with that of mainland Greece.

Yet, most of the data is incomplete. So we can get a better image in the future. There are strong indications though, that there is a clear link between I2a and the medieval expansion of the South Slavs as is described by historical data.

exactly
it is not R1a that really distinguishes south Slavs from people around them, but I2a-din...
look at this work from Macedonia comparing Albanians and FYR Macedonians
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
the two R1a more or less the same and in the level close to the one of Serbia and higher than Montenegro and Herzegovina...

but difference is I2a-Din, Slavic Macedonians have lot of it, FYRM Albanians close to none...



Cypress is probably related to earlier wave of I2a-din from Asia minor...the one in Kurds and the one that I relate to sea people.....

the way I see it, originally I2a-Din people were spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea....
a part entered Asia minor via Black sea as part of the sea peoples conquest (that was invasion of northern people largely by land but also by sea - first from Black sea judging by order of conquest) ...those where Sherdana whose name give rise to the name of a lake in Egypt - Serbonian bog.... from those people come to existence Kurds and Pastun Sarbans that both are distinguished from surrounding people by having I2a

Sherdana are responsible for spreads of I2a-Din in Asia minor and in Cypress

on other hand there were I2a-din people still living in Europe along Danube....
from them came Celtic Scordisci....

when pushed by spreading Roman empire, Scordisci (and other people living in Pannonian plane) could do one of the two: go along Danube to Bohemia, go along Danube to Carpatians or both..
no else where to go...Pannonian plane is flat - cannot be defended against better armed and organized armies....

in fact, Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs living originally around Danube from Hungaria to Bulgaria (which is exactly where Scordisci lived), and how they moved to north and settled Vistula (Ukraine) and Morava (Czech republic) river when they were pushed by Vlakhs (read Roman empire)....

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

so, who were those Slavs?


taking nto account large R1a in Hungary and I2a-din along Danube
1) R1a Pannonians
among Pannonian tribes are Osseriates which in slavic language just mean lake people, and it means that only in Slavic languages
same tribal name reappears in Slavic settlements in Greece for people also living in area of lakes...



2) Serbs probably origin from I2a-Din Scordisci
3) for Croats a wild guess would be Carpi...or perhaps Heruli..also I2a-Din..

I think this Serb-Croat like tribal names are old... and goes to very start of I2a...
Scirii-Hirri / Heruli
Scordisci (Serdi)/Helvetti
Sardinians
Srbi /Hrvati
and in Asia where they spread with sea peoples invasion
white Syrians (Cappadocia in Strabo's time) - Hurrians (earliier)

essentially this pair of names could have meant - day and night - perhaps originally about the ones living east where sun comes up and others west where it goes down...but later as a duality that makes a whole, like yin and yang...always in battle between themselves and always closest to each other...
interestingly, Hirri did dress in black and attack during night - clear identification with night......
and in Asia minor mythology of Seri and Hurri - sacred bulls with names day and night, who carry the weather god Teshub
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_bull





Serbs appear on Balkan in 7th century and it is recorded in De administrando imperio that they come from land Boiki which in my opinion can be only land of Boii - Bohemia /Bavaria because document says it borders Franks on west and white Croatia on east.... besides it is Bohemia/Bavaria where we do find several toponyms Srby, also town Serviodurum... mention of people with name Sibini by Tacitus... (Serb = Srbin in serbo-croatian).... i2a-din has high molecular diversity in Serbia, Bohemia and part of Ukraine...
.
De administrando imperio says it is also where they originally dwellt... which fits with higher haplogroup diversity in Bohemia, Serbia and part of Ukraine...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false


i believe also Pelasgians were R1a people related to later Pannonians R1a people
Pelasgians is in fact tribal name of same origin as Poles... field people / flatland people /sea people

Julius Pokorny derives Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi (Flachlandbewohner, or "flatland-inhabitants"); specifically, Bewohner der thessalischen Ebene ("Inhabitants of the Thessalian plain").^[9] He details a previous derivation, which appears in English at least as early as William Gladstone's Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age.^[10] If the Pelasgians were not Indo-Europeans, the name in this derivation must have been assigned by the Hellenes.The ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.^[11]
Klein's interpretation does not require the Indo-Europeans to have had a word for "sea", which living on the inland plains (if they did) they are likely to have lacked. On encountering the sea they simply used the word for plain, "the flat." The flatlanders also could acquire what must have been to the Hellenes a homonym, "the sea men". Best of all, if the Egyptians of the Late Bronze Age encountered maritime marauders under this name they would have translated as Sea People.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

besides Sherdana, among sea people there are Pelast and Tjekker and Lukka
Pelast are Pelasgians...

so Pelast and Tjekker = same tribal names as Poles and Czechs
Lycians or Lukka would map to tribal name of Lech (also Poles)

note that Kurds stand out from environment not only by I2a-din but also by R1a


4) in the end about Russians, contrary to hypothesys about tribal name origin from viking tribe Rus (that in fact did not exist by that name before making a state in Kiev, they were Varnagians not Rus...Rus they became once they organized Russians in a state), Russians like Poles also carry old R1a name... e.g. Etruscans (not saying that Etruscans were Russians but that they had strong or dominant R1a) who left R1a imprint in Italy called themselves Rasena, Thracians were possibly originally R1a people as well... Rašani was alternative Serb name in medieval period and state was named Raška....

if with expansion of Roman empire, Pannonians migrated north to give Poles, than Thracians easily migrated north to gave Russians... old Greeks were stating that Thracians were largest people in numbers after indians....in fact, Pannonians were likely offshoot of Thracians, and Scythians or Saka (note Sakalibe name for Slavic people in middle east) were related or same people....note also that according to myth Sarmatians origin from Scythians...

Pelasgians and Thracians being R1a people - this is all inline with R1a being very old in Balkan and now considered being Paleolithic in that area...

 

[mihaitzateo]

I saw on another forum pictures with serbs.
A lot of serbs who are looking identical to old dacians statues from the Arch of Constantine.
Novak Djokovic looks like those dacian statues from Arch of Constantine.
I2A could be from old dacians.
A lot of romance speakers said that romanian sound like a latin but that is spoken with slavic sonority.
The dacian names of towns are looking like south slavic,Petrodava,Sucidava and so on.
Is said that after dacians were beaten by Roman Empire in 2nd Roman empire-dacian war,a lot dacians fled to mountains,a lot of them in the mountains from Serbia it seems,others in Greece,so I think this is how a lot of I2A got in north Greece.
Look how crazy are serbians today,like old dacians,they fought with NATO not many years ago.
Romanians are also from dacians,but it seems that serbians have a lot more from dacian warriors.
I think romanians got a lot of words from latin and the gramar from there,but they retained old pronunciation from dacian language.

There are a lot of resemblances between romanians and serbians and croatians,in national costumes and so on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...,_Pražský_jarmark,_srbské_lidové_tance_VI.JPG
Exactly same kind of dance can be found in Romania,almost same costumes and so on.

 

[pipinnacanus]

Agreed; the most obviously important I subclades in early Germanic peoples, as evidenced by both diversity patterns and modern frequency distributions, were I1 (all subclades except maybe AS4 and P)

This is something that I would like to see any Shred of evidence for, seriously, ha ha ha.

The Hg I1 is the ONLY of current euro Hg that is totally absent from the ancient DNA record on the euro continent. It literally does not exists in ANY samples of ancient euro DNA.

While in the sense that the Svears of central scandinavia are of adopted germanic culture, its 'germanic' in modern times, Hg I1 is not provably in any way the source or origin of germanic paternal ancestry, because it is totally absent in any provable euro samples historically. Given that they took over the germanic Geats they seem to have adopted german culture from the Geats.

Germany loses half its populations during the 30 years war alone, and many more with plagues and wars, so the modern I1 in north europe is coming in likely from the masses of I1 we KNOW were fleeing scandinavia during and after the DARK AGES, not in ancient germanic tribal times.

The modern I1 are most likely descendants of the many poor paternally 'Svear' descent farmers from scandinavia looking to settle father south for better lands freed up by depopulation while their own lands are now too crowded.

They are in no way the historical angles, saxons, or germans like Nortvedt wrongly asserted starting a decade ago.

since that time, over a decade ago, we have many ancient y-dna samples from europe and in germany and the I1/germanic crowd has gotten more and more desperate since their tale has now fallen apart like many warned when Nortvedt started this claims.
Show me one ancient DNA discovery of I1 in europe before the dark ages expansions from Svearish Scandinavians that does come from legitimate source, and we can discuss you claims. For the time being, if they are not gibberish and disproven Nordtvedt is as close as you can get to that. He has made many promise to people who emotionally want to believe this claims, and even as they fail, they still seek to sell with emotions and psueudo-babble, what is failing them in provable science.

We're not talking about I2, we're talking about its subclade, I2a-Din (I2a1b1a in Nordtvedt's hierarchy).

Please. The I2 is isolated pools that were no longer in contact with one another and develop proprietary STR's and SNP in their isolation. They are all still aboriginal peoples who exist before the modern cultures we recognize even come into europe. They are adopted into these varied cultures. I2 exists in every population of europe. It held out against R1b/R1a arrival better in the Balkan because the terrain protected them from the aggression of the arrival R males better than in easy flat or open terrain.

 

[how yes no 3]

I saw on another forum pictures with serbs.
A lot of serbs who are looking identical to old dacians statues from the Arch of Constantine.
Novak Djokovic looks like those dacian statues from Arch of Constantine.
I2A could be from old dacians.
A lot of romance speakers said that romanian sound like a latin but that is spoken with slavic sonority.
The dacian names of towns are looking like south slavic,Petrodava,Sucidava and so on.
Is said that after dacians were beaten by Roman Empire in 2nd Roman empire-dacian war,a lot dacians fled to mountains,a lot of them in the mountains from Serbia it seems,others in Greece,so I think this is how a lot of I2A got in north Greece.
Look how crazy are serbians today,like old dacians,they fought with NATO not many years ago.
Romanians are also from dacians,but it seems that serbians have a lot more from dacian warriors.
I think romanians got a lot of words from latin and the gramar from there,but they retained old pronunciation from dacian language.

There are a lot of resemblances between romanians and serbians and croatians,in national costumes and so on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...,_Pražský_jarmark,_srbské_lidové_tance_VI.JPG
Exactly same kind of dance can be found in Romania,almost same costumes and so on.

that makes sense....

Romanians cluster typically close to south Slavs in genetic research...
Dacians were related to wolf same as Lycians and Serbs...

Carpathians with name likely related to Dacian tribe Carpi were also known as montes Serrorum - mountains of Serians... Carpathians were also core of white Croatia....

perhaps Carpi = Hrvati? or maybe Heruli = Hrvati? as in more west parts of white Croatia prior to white Croats Heruli are recorded... or both? what if Carpi = Heruli?

that is hard to state though... but personally, I am sure that Heruli = Hirri, and that east Germanic could in fact have been same as west Slavic but am not decided whether Heruli and Scirii were related to Slavic people...

In the Scandinavian Hervarar saga, which describes ancient Germanic legends about battles between Goths and Huns, the name Karpates appears in the predictable Germanic form as Harvaða fjöllum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains

hence, Carpi = Hervada = Hrvati? (Croats)
what complicates things is that in same time Carpathians were montes Sarmatici - mountains of Sarmatians...and Serboi were one of the tribes mentioned in Asian Sarmatia (later Siraces come from them probably) and there are links of Croats to Sarmatians as well...

Scirii are sometimes said to be part of Alans (=Sarmatians)...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg...&hl=nl&pg=RA1-PR100#v=onepage&q=sciri&f=false
read on mid of the page:

and the Scirii have already been called Alan population

http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg9AAAAcAAJ&dq=scirii tribe history&hl=nl&pg=RA1-PR98#v=onepage&q=sciri&f=false

on top of same page,

there were Scirii as far east as Bavaria

note that Bavaria/Bohemia is from where Serbs come to Balkan

Sciri /Scirians (?= Serians mentioned by Seneca = I2a-Din?)

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) theSerians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html


what if by origin I2a-Din people living in Europe along Danube and had conquest that spread them further along Black sea into Asia

Hirri = Heruli = Hervada = Carpi = Hrvati (? Helvetti)
and
Scirii = Siraces = Serboi = white Serbs = Serdi / Scordisci = Sherdana = white Syrians = Kurds = Sarbans = white Sarts = Serians = Serres



btw. for Romanian - south Slavic link look at this clustering of Y-DNA samples

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html


note this
haplogroup I old tribal names

Suebi (Swabians) - Swedes - Srbi - Sarbans - Serdi - Sardinians - Sherdana - Scordisci - Kurds- Scirii / Scirrians- Serians
Dutch/Deutch - Dacians

as I said I2a-Din has spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea and than with invading conquests further to Asia (Sherdana, Seres, Serians, Sart, Kurds, Sarbans)

Dacians were one of the tribes around Danube and hence reach in I2a-Din

I think Dacians had dominant haplogroup I (I1?, I2a-Din , I2b ) with significant R1a of Thracians, hence similar mix to Serbs prior to settlement on Balkan, but I do not think they were ancestors of today Serbs...as Serbs are recorded to have settled Balkans from Boiki that neghbours Franks and white Croatia (hence Boiki = land of Boii = Bohemia/Bavaria) ...also I2a-Din south typical for south Slavs is not found in Romania but is found in Germany...

 

[sparkey]

The Hg I1 is the ONLY of current euro Hg that is totally absent from the ancient DNA record on the euro continent. It literally does not exists in ANY samples of ancient euro DNA.

Do you seriously think that we have enough samples, in the right places, to expect more than that right now? Everyone who has looked at current I1 samples will tell you that it's remarkably young in terms of TMRCA, but quite old in terms of clade age, meaning that we don't expect there to be many ancient I1 samples anywhere prior to its relative late expansions.

The center of diversity of I1 is around Schleswig-Holstein per Nordtvedt, by the way. There are no ancient clades with apparent origins far from that discovered so far.

While in the sense that the Svears of central scandinavia are of adopted germanic culture, its 'germanic' in modern times, Hg I1 is not provably in any way the source or origin of germanic paternal ancestry, because it is totally absent in any provable euro samples historically. Given that they took over the germanic Geats they seem to have adopted german culture from the Geats.

Who do you propose the Svears were, if not Germanic? And you're saying they brought I1 to Scandinavia from where...?

And again, you're reading too much into the lack of ancient DNA.

Germany loses half its populations during the 30 years war alone, and many more with plagues and wars, so the modern I1 in north europe is coming in likely from the masses of I1 we KNOW were fleeing scandinavia during and after the DARK AGES, not in ancient germanic tribal times.

Then why is North German I1 of the same subclade as English I1 for the most part? And Scandinavian-type I1 is much rarer there?

The modern I1 are most likely descendants of the many poor paternally 'Svear' descent farmers from scandinavia looking to settle father south for better lands freed up by depopulation while their own lands are now too crowded.

They are in no way the historical angles, saxons, or germans like Nortvedt wrongly asserted starting a decade ago.

And you say my theories have no evidence...

since that time, over a decade ago, we have many ancient y-dna samples from europe and in germany

Wrong.

and the I1/germanic crowd has gotten more and more desperate since their tale has now fallen apart like many warned when Nortvedt started this claims.

Nobody's worried, because we haven't had any samples other than Birger Jarl where I1 was seriously expected.

Show me one ancient DNA discovery of I1 in europe before the dark ages expansions from Svearish Scandinavians that does come from legitimate source, and we can discuss you claims. For the time being, if they are not gibberish and disproven Nordtvedt is as close as you can get to that. He has made many promise to people who emotionally want to believe this claims, and even as they fail, they still seek to sell with emotions and psueudo-babble, what is failing them in provable science.

OK, seriously. Listen up. We only have diversity analysis now. We haven't expected more ancient I1 than we have.

And diversity analysis still indicates strong ties between Haplogroup I1 and Germanic peoples. Your assertions, on the other hand, don't match even a cursory subclade analysis.

Please. The I2 is isolated pools that were no longer in contact with one another and develop proprietary STR's and SNP in their isolation. They are all still aboriginal peoples who exist before the modern cultures we recognize even come into europe. They are adopted into these varied cultures. I2 exists in every population of europe. It held out against R1b/R1a arrival better in the Balkan because the terrain protected them from the aggression of the arrival R males better than in easy flat or open terrain.

You're putting it strangely. STR mutations and SNPs develop linearly, not due to isolation, of course. And I agree that I2 is indigenous to Europe (I even call them Paleolithic Remnants), I'm only trying to investigate the reasons for the present distribution of its subclades.

And you indicate that you believe the Paleolithic continuity theory for I2a-Din in the Balkans, but you don't present any evidence. So, I don't see why I should consider your theory. I've presented my theory based on geographic diversity analysis, STR dating, and a related subclade analysis. What do you have?

 

[Gosh]

but difference is I2a-Din, Slavic Macedonians have lot of it, FYRM Albanians close to none...

Are you sure in that? )))
Take another look on data about Albania. Especially southern Albania.

I like to read your posts because you have a rich imagination but I don't agree with you in many things. Too much speculations without historical sources. Some things which you told are true but many of them aren't.

rgds

 

[MOESAN]

I see someones on this thread are keeping on making adventurous hypothesis based on possible common origins of tribes names, sometime very possible but the most often without any linguistic basis -
I think we have to take official history as a basis and try to correct it, maybe challenge it when data make it possible, but not begin by building complicated hypothesis that seam to me as 'scoops' or fairy tales...
NO offense...

 

[how yes no 3]

Are you sure in that? )))
Take another look on data about Albania. Especially southern Albania.

I like to read your posts because you have a rich imagination but I don't agree with you in many things. Too much speculations without historical sources. Some things which you told are true but many of them aren't.

rgds

I am sure, I speak of FYR Macedonia Albanians ..
there were tests done in Macedonia....

south Albania is different story
it was heavily settled by Slavs, plenty of Slavic place names there, it was conquered for long time by Bulgarians (in times when they were also holding Macedonia)

Macedonia albanians have probably settled FYRM from north Albania mountains not so long ago in history...they didnot mix with south Slavs or Bulgar Slavs

 

[how yes no 3]

I see someones on this thread are keeping on making adventurous hypothesis based on possible common origins of tribes names, sometime very possible but the most often without any linguistic basis -
I think we have to take official history as a basis and try to correct it, maybe challenge it when data make it possible, but not begin by building complicated hypothesis that seam to me as 'scoops' or fairy tales...
NO offense...

your last name is likely to correlate with set of people related to you
tribal name is last name of the nation.... it sometimes passes on even when language and culture change...


theory that i propose links spread of tribal names and quotes from history sources, with genetic findings...
it is pretty good theory if you give it a fair chance...

but mediocre people always by default discard ideas that they did not learn about in schools and hence are never able to discover anything, they just repeat known and will fail to recognize flaws in any school theory regardless of sometimes total lack of proof in it...

e.g. school says Scirii are east Germanic,for mediocre mind that is absolute truth...
but history books in fact discuss about them being Alan nation, being related to Venedi, even being Turkic..

same is for Scordisci..their culture (archeological escavation) indicate Celtic culture, but that doesnot mean they were neccessery celtic speakers... if I wear jeans, am I American?
Scordisci might be bad example as they probably were Celtic speakers as testified e.g. by town names.... but what if elite was Celtic and people not?
point is also that languages of people change.... but genetics stays....

genetics, same as tribal names, speaks about origin, language is about dominant culture or military...it can change very fast - e.g. not so long ago Celtic was spoken in France, latin only in a village called Rome.. people here keep speaking about germanic, slavic, celtic - but those are language groups and may have somewhat different history from genetic history... they are on different time scales as well..haplogroups splits happened much earlier in history, so at times when modern groups of languages are forming many peoples were already mixed genetically.....
... but knowing history, genetics and identifying tribal names of same origin can help interpret history...

 

[Yetos]

And diversity analysis still indicates strong ties between Haplogroup I1 and Germanic peoples. Your assertions, on the other hand, don't match even a cursory subclade analysis.

when you say Germanic people, you mean as what? as Geographical Area?
As modern Duetsh? as a Nation that existed since when? Before IE expansion or After?

plz it is very important to make that more specific,
cause personally I believe that Germanic Language was more East 3 millenium before,
and Personally I connect I HG with Thracians-Getae substractum which was ruled by R1 than Germanic people ( non Geographical term)

 

[Dianatomia]

Yes but the same results could have in case that we consider I2a as Thracian, especially the Triballi Thracian

meaning that if I2a was before Slavic expansion to south, then it could be a mark of Triballi Thracians,
and the results in Greece Albania Bulgaria and Cyprus will be the same as also in Italy,

Seems to me like a long shot. If I2a would belong to Triballi Thracians, the epicenter of I2a would have been somewhere between Serbia and Bulgaria. Not Bosnia-Croatia.

Also, notice that the peninsular Greeks, Ionian Greeks, Greek Islanders, Albanians, Albanian Macedonians, Western Anatolians, Cypriots and South Italians have higher rates of E-V13 and J2 than the - in part newly arrived - Slavic peoples. These haplogroups are indigenous to the ancient region and where present in the Balkans before most of the ethnic identities where formed. This means that they had all the time in the world to spread and dominate in the region.

It is important to note that I2b as a rule comes at the expense of E-V13 and J2. It's very hard to see very high J2 + E-V13 as well as high I2a in the same population. This means they are competing haplogroups in that region. A slight indication that it is a new arrival.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Highest diversity of I2A-din found till now is in croats and also in moldavians from north Romania,from Neamt & Buhusi.
Croats are another dacian tribe,they came there from Carpathians that were in those times in north Moldavia.
Now that land belongs to Ukraine.
As a very curious thing,moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi are more close genetically to croats,than serbs are to croats.
Moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi:
40.7% I2A-din,20% R1A1-M17 ,13% R1B3,7.4% E-V13,5.7% various clades of J2,5.6% G-M201,3.7% I1A-M253,1.9% I1c-M223 ...
Compare this to croatian Y DNA,lol.
There is an ancient population living in Carphatians from Moldavia and Ukraine,they are called hutsuls,they are linked to the mountains,they have a very high percentage of I2A-din and they speak a slavic language,they have the usual popular costume that looks like those posted from those serbians,which is almost identical to some romanians etc.

 

[how yes no 3]

Highest diversity of I2A-din found till now is in croats and also in moldavians from north Romania,from Neamt & Buhusi.

diversity is not the same as frequency...

actually, from what i have read (not much data yet about diversity of I2a-din in official publications) Moldavians have lowest diversity and Croats relatively low diversity...biggest diversity is in part of Ukraine in Czech republic and Serbia..

Bosnia Croats have high frequency of I2a-Din but not so high diversity...

Croatian origin of big part of this people is disputed as Narentanes/Pagani were by Byzantine historians captured as unbaptized Serbs.... in last centuries people were classified as Serbs/Croats based on religion... catholic = Croat, orthodox = Serb

42% of I2a-Din in Croatia is big lie made by talking half of samples from 3 southern islands that were part of Narentania and where I2aDin is between 60 and 80%...
in reality, Croatia has I2a-Din on same level as Serbia - around 30%

Croats are another dacian tribe,they came there from Carpathians that were in those times in north Moldavia.
Now that land belongs to Ukraine.

well, that is hard to state as we do not know much about Dacians...
but yes, Croats did have state in Carpathians in part that is now Ukraine and south Poland and perhaps even Slovakia...
they may have been same people as Carpi and/or Heruli but there is no real proof for that yet...

As a very curious thing,moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi are more close genetically to croats,than serbs are to croats.Moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi:
40.7% I2A-din,20% R1A1-M17 ,13% R1B3,7.4% E-V13,5.7% various clades of J2,5.6% G-M201,3.7% I1A-M253,1.9% I1c-M223 ...
Compare this to croatian Y DNA,lol.
There is an ancient population living in Carphatians from Moldavia and Ukraine,they are called hutsuls,they are linked to the mountains,they have a very high percentage of I2A-din and they speak a slavic language,they have the usual popular costume that looks like those posted from those serbians,which is almost identical to some romanians etc.

as i said Croats do not have 42% of I2a-Din
its about how to lie with numbers...
i can take half samples from Sweden and half from Sardinia and say there is 25% I2a1 in Sweden, but there is 0%


regarding Neamt and Buhusi, if those counties are very different than rest of Romania, than they are not Dacians in origin..
neamt county is named after a word that means german in Slavic languages which is likely indication of germanic settlement...

 

[sparkey]

diversity is not the same as frequency...

actually, from what i have read (not much data yet about diversity of I2a-din in official publications) Moldavians have lowest diversity and Croats relatively low diversity...biggest diversity is in part of Ukraine in Czech republic and Serbia..

Bosnia Croats have high frequency of I2a-Din but not so high diversity...

From what I've read, Ukrainians seem to have the highest I2a-Din diversity, with Poles a possible #2 (Poles become #1 if we restrict to I2a-Din-S only, although the Czechs are also important then and may challenge them for that title, as you indicate). Moldavians have a good amount of diversity, maybe #3 or even #2, consistent with the Ukranian diversity spike, but it seems to go down as you get farther from Ukraine, indicating that the origin is farther north than they are. Verenich's analysis is great for this, although I think that the forum he posted it on might be down now...

 

[sparkey]

when you say Germanic people, you mean as what? as Geographical Area?
As modern Duetsh? as a Nation that existed since when? Before IE expansion or After?

After IE expansion, meaning groups of peoples that spoke languages that would today be classified as "Germanic."

 

[zanipolo]

diversity is not the same as frequency...

actually, from what i have read (not much data yet about diversity of I2a-din in official publications) Moldavians have lowest diversity and Croats relatively low diversity...biggest diversity is in part of Ukraine in Czech republic and Serbia..

Bosnia Croats have high frequency of I2a-Din but not so high diversity...

Croatian origin of big part of this people is disputed as Narentanes/Pagani were by Byzantine historians captured as unbaptized Serbs.... in last centuries people were classified as Serbs/Croats based on religion... catholic = Croat, orthodox = Serb

42% of I2a-Din in Croatia is big lie made by talking half of samples from 3 southern islands that were part of Narentania and where I2aDin is between 60 and 80%...
in reality, Croatia has I2a-Din on same level as Serbia - around 30%






well, that is hard to state as we do not know much about Dacians...
but yes, Croats did have state in Carpathians in part that is now Ukraine and south Poland and perhaps even Slovakia...
they may have been same people as Carpi and/or Heruli but there is no real proof for that yet...




as i said Croats do not have 42% of I2a-Din
its about how to lie with numbers...
i can take half samples from Sweden and half from Sardinia and say there is 25% I2a1 in Sweden, but there is 0%


regarding Neamt and Buhusi, if those counties are very different than rest of Romania, than they are not Dacians in origin..
neamt county is named after a word that means german in Slavic languages which is likely indication of germanic settlement...

I do not know why you do not take the ancient Serbians as non-slavic , but a thracian race...the Triballi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

most ancient, dark ages and medieval historians say the serbian come from this thracian tribe, that where pushed eastward by the illyrians coming down from the north and later conquered by the gaulish scordisci. The serbs did not bring any I2a into the blakans if they where always in the balkans, they are in majority E HG.
Its one reason to this day the serbs want their ancient homeland of kosovo

Read link and all link at the bottom of the link presented.

The only south slavs that came to the balkans was the bulgars, all the rest where not ancient slavic people.

http://books.google.com.au/books?ei...erior&q=triballi#v=snippet&q=triballi&f=false

search inside this book.

BTW , the triballi as some historians claim became the moesians

 

[zanipolo]

From what I've read, Ukrainians seem to have the highest I2a-Din diversity, with Poles a possible #2 (Poles become #1 if we restrict to I2a-Din-S only, although the Czechs are also important then and may challenge them for that title, as you indicate). Moldavians have a good amount of diversity, maybe #3 or even #2, consistent with the Ukranian diversity spike, but it seems to go down as you get farther from Ukraine, indicating that the origin is farther north than they are. Verenich's analysis is great for this, although I think that the forum he posted it on might be down now...

are czechs south slavs, ....no. Where they slavic in the ancient times ...no. So how can these west slavic people bring I2a-Din into the balkans?

The only people that can bring I2a-din into the balkans was from Central europe. If there was no slavs there at that time, how did it happen