How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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The hobbyist analysis that Gosh cross-posted earlier claimed Prague Culture as the likely source, which seems feasible to me. You present an interesting challenge, though: If the proposal is that South Slavic peoples are more closely related to West than to East Slavic peoples, why do South Slavic languages share more in common with East Slavic? The answer is apparently: since the separation of the South Slavic peoples dates back to the early days of what might be called a "Slavic" culture, probably before the differentiation of the Slavic language, that means that West and South Slavic languages didn't develop their unique characteristics until after they separated. Since they were initially smaller populations than East Slavic, their languages probably evolved more quickly as a result.

Obviously, the above is a lot of speculation on my part, trying to make sense of the pieces of this puzzle that I understand the least, so as always, I'm open to any corrections or counter-analysis.

Is this I2a-Din have any relation with I2a L69?

prague culture depending what years you speak of would be celtic boii as per what taranis says about the boii.
 
I just remember of how you were saying in old romanian language at a script that describe history - letopisetz.

In south slavic is called ljetopis.

Is just nonsense,highest percentage of I2A din is in hutsuls,they are living in Romanian and Ukraine Carpathians,they have same popular costumes as romanians and serbs (and think croats) and so on.
Is the propaganda that want to say romanians,serbs,croats and montenegrins are not here from thousands of years,but they came from somewhere.
Almost all geniticians accept that I is from proto-europeans,however,some people from here are negating obvious truth,and want to tell that I2A din was not from here,as Nortvedt also clearly states,but that some migratory people came here.
Look how most people voted here,
Paleolithic continuity,stop with the nonsense,the people from here were called either thracians,either dacians,either south slavs.
You can not explain the resemblance of popular costumes from serbs,romanians with popular costumes in which dacians are painted on Trajan column,if you do not accept that dacians are same with south slavs and from here is I2A-din.

Go google and look at the popular costumes of hutsuls,at the popular costumes of romanians,at the popular costumes of serbians and of croats.

nop you point in a wrong way of understanding,

this has nothing to do with propaganda of a state etc,
but with understanding better migration and Human History,
and stop the charlatans of every country that are paid to make propaganda,
the difference among South Slavs and Thracians is big enough, even in Linguistic and in culture,
simply south Slavic accepted Thracian culture by time, that as also the heritage culture they carry create and their new alliances and religion create modern states in Balkans,

a good example is Cumans, they entered Balkans, they create villages and cities, in Serbia FyroM Romania Albania, but no body talks about them,
if you look modern Cumans they sing and dance just like Serbs Albanians Romanians Greeks, but were they Thracians or Greeks etc?


De administrando imperio does not talk about the arrival of the serbs but of the severians. According to russian and slavic historians, the Poles came from east of modern Kiev and the Severians from east of the Poles.

I do not know why you disregard your thracian roots, be it triballi or seres , both are thracian tribes. There is nothing wrong with being part of extinct name be it thracian, trojan, Illyrian, gothic, gallic, raeti and dozens or others. You fail to understand that serbs are not originally slavic and there history is in the balkans, same as bosnians, thay say they came from the gothic Bosni tribe , which does not exist, but they came from another thracian tribe called bessi ( besi) .
Being overun and ruled by the gaulish scordisci does not make you gaulish/celtic, because the romans overun your area as well, I do not see you saying you are roman.

The I2a-Din was central european, be it illyrian like I said or Celtic from Boii or others. Its odd the illyrians and celtics never clashed but lived side by side and merged in different areas, be it noricum, pannonia and others

In the comments of vandals/vandelli/vendelli, well they where not a tribe but a confederation of different tribes, I already produced map, these tribes where the goths, gepids, lugii, rugii, burgundians, longobards, and others

nope, the road of Severi is beside the road of Bulgars, they came both from Ucraine Moldavia
Severi came first to Romania (Karpatheia) and from there enter Central Bulgaria, Bulgars enter from minor Scythia, to East Bulgaria,
that is why although Bulgars were Huns relative speaking, Bulgaria is a Slavic speaking,
these 2 and the older Thracians and the Serdi create the modern Bulgaria

Serbs and Croats,
Serbs and Croats is another cooperation, that is why the language in 1800 was Serbo-Croatian, and not Severian or Bulgarian.
Serbs and Croat are mentioned to act together from the times of 'white Serbia' and white Croatia and white Russia (Bella Serbia Bella croatia Bella Russia, in Germanic Weiss (west) Serbia weiss croatia Weiss Russ) from there moved west
to Bohemia the Serbs to East Hungary the Croats,
and from there enter Balkans but from the same passage. today's Beograd,
First the Serbs who moved to Nis, to Skopje and then back to Dunav,
then Croats who passed Beograd move to Croatia inland and then to Dalmatia,
so modern Serbs are the Serbs the Thracians and the remnants of Celts east of dinaric Alps
Modern Croats are the Croats the Dalmatians and the population that exist before,
the big difference among inland Croats (not Dalmatians) and Serbs and Bosnians is religion,

The Severi became synonym of what Byzantines call Bulgarians, Severi split and gave the Gorani, Pomaks (the tamrash) etc
Serbs are a clear river culture, the aquatic system of Central Balkans, the one Triballi wanted to control.
Severi are an open country and mountain culture mostly roaming with their animals
 
I just remember of how you were saying in old romanian language at a script that describe history - letopisetz.

In south slavic is called ljetopis.

letopis in Serbia, ljetopis is more what people in Montenegro or Croatia or Bosnia would say...

its a coin word
leto = summer/year (year is more arhaic meaning)
pisati = to write
it literrary means "writing (down) years" = chronicle

it is Slavic word.... perhaps it was used in medival romanian

but that is just confirmation of what is known - that medieval Romanian was much closer to Slavic than modern one, and that was result of big Slavic admixture.....






Is just nonsense,highest percentage of I2A din is in hutsuls,they are living in Romanian and Ukraine Carpathians,they have same popular costumes as romanians and serbs (and think croats) and so on.
Is the propaganda that want to say romanians,serbs,croats and montenegrins are not here from thousands of years,but they came from somewhere.
area of Carpathians on border of Ukraine and Romania was core of white Croatia.... it is possible that Dacian Carpi Germanic Heruli and Slavic Hrvati (Croats) are same people....but it is just my speculation...


Almost all geniticians accept that I is from proto-europeans,however,some people from here are negating obvious truth,and want to tell that I2A din was not from here,as Nortvedt also clearly states,but that some migratory people came here.
I2a is present in Danube basin and Morava valley system for long time.... but in my opinion not continuously on all parts of it.... spread of roman empire pushed parts of it up the Danube and down the Danube...

Look how most people voted here,
Paleolithic continuity,stop with the nonsense,the people from here were called either thracians,either dacians,either south slavs.
You can not explain the resemblance of popular costumes from serbs,romanians with popular costumes in which dacians are painted on Trajan column,if you do not accept that dacians are same with south slavs and from here is I2A-din.
i have no indications that Dacians are same as south Slavs...in fact there is no I2a-Din South in Romania....hence those were perhaps related perhaps also dominant I2a-Din people but not the same people...
the tribal name Dacians I tend to link more to R1b...but am not sure yet...


De administrando imperio does not talk about the arrival of the serbs but of the severians. According to russian and slavic historians, the Poles came from east of modern Kiev and the Severians from east of the Poles.
sure it does.... there is a chapter on serbs and a chapter on Croats, and chapter of some other south Slavic tribes like Narentanes (area of south Croatia and Croatian Herzegovina) that are classified as Serbs....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...nistrando imperio&pg=PP11#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

I do not know why you disregard your thracian roots, be it triballi or seres , both are thracian tribes. There is nothing wrong with being part of extinct name be it thracian, trojan, Illyrian, gothic, gallic, raeti and dozens or others. You fail to understand that serbs are not originally slavic and there history is in the balkans, same as bosnians, thay say they came from the gothic Bosni tribe , which does not exist, but they came from another thracian tribe called bessi ( besi) .
I do not negate that some tribes of I2a-din race that spread serb alike tribal names were considered Thracian possible tribes of that race among Thracians are e.g. Triballi and Serdi... I say that only historic source says that modern Serbs origin from people who come from Bohemia and that this is matching other evidence - like divergency of I2a-din, place names, river names, presence of I2a-din south in germany but not in east europe.... my theory is just that those people in fact didnot come but came back to place from which roman empire has pushed them out....



Being overun and ruled by the gaulish scordisci does not make you gaulish/celtic, because the romans overun your area as well, I do not see you saying you are roman.
scordisci/serdi is derived from same tribal name as Serbi... hence tribal name may origin from those people...
they did spread along Danube that matches spread of i2a-din and matches precisely the location
where russian primary chronicle places Danubian slavs prior to expansion of Roman empire...

The I2a-Din was central european, be it illyrian like I said or Celtic from Boii or others. Its odd the illyrians and celtics never clashed but lived side by side and merged in different areas, be it noricum, pannonia and others
I2a-din spread along Danube and is correlating everywhere in Europe and Asia with names alike to Serbs... Scordisci are one of the tribal names that fit in this I2a-Din Serian/Serres/ Scirii(Sciriians)/ white-Syrian/Scordisci/Kurds/Sherdana(with place named after them being Serbonian bog)/ white Sart, Sart, Serres, Serboi.... correlation is very clear...

but you try to tell me that original Serbs were E-V13, that they got tribal name and I2a-din from Scordisci... than why would that E-V13 be original when they are not dominant in genetics nor carrier of identity (= tribal name)
 
Romanians,South Slavs,Albanians and Carpathian Slavs they all wear Dacian shoes.
Romanian opinca
Albanian opinge

)))) Are they really Dacian?

In sanskrit, word wopanah means- a shoe. Even in Thai language we can meet this word. Moreover, Celts also worn them.

Constantine Porphirogenetus claimed that Serbs got that name from their shoes "which worn slaves" (obviously from similar sounding of words Serb and serv (a slave)).
 


pisati = to write
Old romanian word, pisanie ,means an inscription:
http://www.webdex.ro/online/dictionar/pisanie
http://translate.google.com/#ro|en|pisanie
Lawl.
Also županŭ from serbian/croat and old romanian word jupan meaning some kind of boyar.
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/jupan
The things are becoming more and more obvious.
Romania never ever fought against Serbia,in our history is never mentioned about that.
Guess why.
We have a word in Romania,that our best neighbours are Black Sea and Serbia.
 
nop you point in a wrong way of understanding,

this has nothing to do with propaganda of a state etc,
but with understanding better migration and Human History,
and stop the charlatans of every country that are paid to make propaganda,
the difference among South Slavs and Thracians is big enough, even in Linguistic and in culture,
simply south Slavic accepted Thracian culture by time, that as also the heritage culture they carry create and their new alliances and religion create modern states in Balkans,

a good example is Cumans, they entered Balkans, they create villages and cities, in Serbia FyroM Romania Albania, but no body talks about them,
if you look modern Cumans they sing and dance just like Serbs Albanians Romanians Greeks, but were they Thracians or Greeks etc?




nope, the road of Severi is beside the road of Bulgars, they came both from Ucraine Moldavia
Severi came first to Romania (Karpatheia) and from there enter Central Bulgaria, Bulgars enter from minor Scythia, to East Bulgaria,
that is why although Bulgars were Huns relative speaking, Bulgaria is a Slavic speaking,
these 2 and the older Thracians and the Serdi create the modern Bulgaria

Serbs and Croats,
Serbs and Croats is another cooperation, that is why the language in 1800 was Serbo-Croatian, and not Severian or Bulgarian.
Serbs and Croat are mentioned to act together from the times of 'white Serbia' and white Croatia and white Russia (Bella Serbia Bella croatia Bella Russia, in Germanic Weiss (west) Serbia weiss croatia Weiss Russ) from there moved west
to Bohemia the Serbs to East Hungary the Croats,
and from there enter Balkans but from the same passage. today's Beograd,
First the Serbs who moved to Nis, to Skopje and then back to Dunav,
then Croats who passed Beograd move to Croatia inland and then to Dalmatia,
so modern Serbs are the Serbs the Thracians and the remnants of Celts east of dinaric Alps
Modern Croats are the Croats the Dalmatians and the population that exist before,
the big difference among inland Croats (not Dalmatians) and Serbs and Bosnians is religion,

The Severi became synonym of what Byzantines call Bulgarians, Severi split and gave the Gorani, Pomaks (the tamrash) etc
Serbs are a clear river culture, the aquatic system of Central Balkans, the one Triballi wanted to control.
Severi are an open country and mountain culture mostly roaming with their animals

either way serdi or triballi , they are both thracian and that means not slavic and that means they did not bring any HG into the balkans except what they where born with.
or are you saying the thracians had I2a-Din
 



sure it does.... there is a chapter on serbs and a chapter on Croats, and chapter of some other south Slavic tribes like Narentanes (area of south Croatia and Croatian Herzegovina) that are classified as Serbs....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PP11#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false


I do not negate that some tribes of I2a-din race that spread serb alike tribal names were considered Thracian possible tribes of that race among Thracians are e.g. Triballi and Serdi... I say that only historic source says that modern Serbs origin from people who come from Bohemia and that this is matching other evidence - like divergency of I2a-din, place names, river names, presence of I2a-din south in germany but not in east europe.... my theory is just that those people in fact didnot come but came back to place from which roman empire has pushed them out....




scordisci/serdi is derived from same tribal name as Serbi... hence tribal name may origin from those people...
they did spread along Danube that matches spread of i2a-din and matches precisely the location
where russian primary chronicle places Danubian slavs prior to expansion of Roman empire...


I2a-din spread along Danube and is correlating everywhere in Europe and Asia with names alike to Serbs... Scordisci are one of the tribal names that fit in this I2a-Din Serian/Serres/ Scirii(Sciriians)/ white-Syrian/Scordisci/Kurds/Sherdana(with place named after them being Serbonian bog)/ white Sart, Sart, Serres, Serboi.... correlation is very clear...

but you try to tell me that original Serbs were E-V13, that they got tribal name and I2a-din from Scordisci... than why would that E-V13 be original when they are not dominant in genetics nor carrier of identity (= tribal name)

what page on this link?

you stated in February 2011 that serbs where originally Triballi of thracian stock , now you change your mind?

Yes I am saying the original serbs where thracian and where E HG and inherited maybe I from tthe celts or Illyrians , as both conquered the triballi
 
@ Gosh

About opinca.Sanskrit,Dacian/Thracian,Slavic is Satem,while Celtic is Centum.
Albanian also has this word.
 
The term used in macedonian ,opinci is identic with the romanian word.
Macedonian is also a south slavic language.
Look at this popular dance from Serbia,from mountains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ssIt3IMcx8
Look at the men costume,that is almost identical with some romanian popular costumes.
Hats are exactly as dacians are depicted to have on Trajan's column and trousers.
There are also romanian popular costumes who have such hats,identical.
Look at this serbian traditional wolf ritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rp6RTIE-QE&feature=related
(can someone translate what the old women is telling?)
Now it is know that dacians were linked to wolves.
And look what is written there:
"Societies in the Serbia respected the wolf. Old Slavs featured their major god Dazbog as a Lame Wolf. Wolves had a strong symbolical meaning amongst the Slavs which was preserved throughout history and then carried on into the Christian era.

The wolf has always played an important role in Serbian folklore, customs and tradition.

It used to be believed that wolves scare away evil spirits and ghosts and protect children from illness and because of this parents gave their children names which derived from the word «wolf»."
Look here also:
http://www.slavorum.com/index.php?topic=1434.15
"One of the most prominent Koledo procession are the wolf-men (vučari).
- It is a procession of young men covered with wolf's skin. They carry a dead wolf with them, filled with straw, through whose body a rod was pulled. The wolf, according to the old religion, represented a man's alter ego, the incarnation of a soul of an ancestor, so the procession was actually composed of deceased ancestors. It was believed that the soul of every Serb could appear in wolf form ."

- Vesna Marjanovic, ethnologist and author of "Masks, masking and rituals in Serbia""
Look at the video with another wolf ritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7XpQgGeCbU&feature=player_embedded

And is a tradition in Serbia to put names that contain wolf in them because that is good for the one bearing that name.

Now in romanian you tell at werewolf vârcolac.
And in bulgarian that is върколак which written with latin characters is varcolac.
And in serbian this is called vukodlak.
In czech is vlkodlak,in polish wilkolak,in russian also have the form vurdalak,in ukrainian also have the form vovkulak,in latvian vilkatis,in lithuanian vilkolakis.
This means a man who is transforming into a wolf,in english translation werewolf.
It seems that similar rituals were present at dacians from Romania and Bulgaria also,but were lost.
I think thracians are exactly the slavs,and dacians are the slavs which have mostly I2A.
You will see that in Poland,Czechia,Ukraine,Russia I2A is pretty present.And in Poland were villages of vlachs,is atested documentary.
 
@ Gosh

About opinca.Sanskrit,Dacian/Thracian,Slavic is Satem,while Celtic is Centum.
Albanian also has this word.

That's right
but.... I don't know how you could find that this word is exactly of Dacian origin?

Now we know that Sanskrit is formed on the basis of PIE language. That means.... that word already existed in Europe at least 4000 years ago. PIE culture is formed in Balkans.
 
I thing we going away from the subject,

Thracian at least from the know vocabulary that is written in Hellenistic has nothing to do with Slavic neither with scythian
but mostly with Greek Anatolian Germanic baltic, it was neither satem for me.
 
Is this I2a-Din have any relation with I2a L69?

Sorry, I almost missed this question...

Yes, I2a-Din is L69+. I2a-L69 is also known as I2a1b1, and includes I2a1b1a (AKA I2a-Din) and I2a1b1* (AKA I2a-Disles).
 
With the small point: Nordtvedt's site has Disles as I2a1b1 rather than I2a1b1*
 
Dacians battle flag is made from a head of a wolf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco
Link that with the popular customs from Serbia,those related to wolf.In Romania and Serbia,but more often in Serbia,there are families who have wolf and something as family name,take for example serbian Vuk,Vukovic and so on or romanian Lupu,Lupescu and so on.
(in serbian vuk means wolf and in romanian the word was taken from latin and is lup ).
Is clearly that dacians were speaking a slavic language,after the sonority of today romanian.

Look at this old custom from Serbia,which have also resemblances in Romania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Christmas_traditions#Koleda
"The koleda was a custom that a group of young men, masked and costumed, went from house to house of their village singing special koleda songs and performing acts of magic intended to summon health, wealth, and prosperity for each household. The members of the group were called koledari. The koleda was carried out from the Feast of Saint Ignatius Theophorus (five days before Christmas) up until the Epiphany. This custom was best preserved in the upper Pčinja District, and in the region around the River South Morava in the Jablanica District, southeastern Serbia. Regarded as pagan and discouraged by the Serbian Orthodox Church, the koleda ceased to be performed among most of the Serbs during the 19th and 20th centuries.

Koledari prepared themselves during several days before the start of the koleda: they practiced the koleda songs, and made their masks and costumes The masks could be classified into three types according to the characters they represented: the anthropomorphic, the zoomorphic (representing bear, cow, stag, goat, sheep, ox, wolf, stork, etc.), and the anthropo-zoomorphic."
In Romania the custom is still kept with people being dressed as bears or as goats.
Koleda in romanian is colinda (which translates in english by carol ) so is clear the word is coming from same root.
Yes other nations have also the custom to go from house to house on Christmas to sing carols,but the tradition to dress in goat and go sing carols for Christmas I only saw till now at romanians and serbians.
 
Koleda in romanian is colinda (which translates in english by carol ) so is clear the word is coming from same root.
Yes other nations have also the custom to go from house to house on Christmas to sing carols,but the tradition to dress in goat and go sing carols for Christmas I only saw till now at romanians and serbians.

You are wrong to dress in masks and costumes of animals and sing songs from door to door is typical Slavic custom.

Check it up in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koleda
 
Dacians battle flag is made from a head of a wolf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco
Link that with the popular customs from Serbia,those related to wolf.In Romania and Serbia,but more often in Serbia,there are families who have wolf and something as family name,take for example serbian Vuk,Vukovic and so on or romanian Lupu,Lupescu and so on.
(in serbian vuk means wolf and in romanian the word was taken from latin and is lup ).
Is clearly that dacians were speaking a slavic language,after the sonority of today romanian.

Look at this old custom from Serbia,which have also resemblances in Romania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Christmas_traditions#Koleda
"The koleda was a custom that a group of young men, masked and costumed, went from house to house of their village singing special koleda songs and performing acts of magic intended to summon health, wealth, and prosperity for each household. The members of the group were called koledari. The koleda was carried out from the Feast of Saint Ignatius Theophorus (five days before Christmas) up until the Epiphany. This custom was best preserved in the upper Pčinja District, and in the region around the River South Morava in the Jablanica District, southeastern Serbia. Regarded as pagan and discouraged by the Serbian Orthodox Church, the koleda ceased to be performed among most of the Serbs during the 19th and 20th centuries.

Koledari prepared themselves during several days before the start of the koleda: they practiced the koleda songs, and made their masks and costumes The masks could be classified into three types according to the characters they represented: the anthropomorphic, the zoomorphic (representing bear, cow, stag, goat, sheep, ox, wolf, stork, etc.), and the anthropo-zoomorphic."
In Romania the custom is still kept with people being dressed as bears or as goats.
Koleda in romanian is colinda (which translates in english by carol ) so is clear the word is coming from same root.
Yes other nations have also the custom to go from house to house on Christmas to sing carols,but the tradition to dress in goat and go sing carols for Christmas I only saw till now at romanians and serbians.


that is much older, ancient IE customs, existed in Greeks thousand years before,

And exist in Kallasha, which means that the custom IS NOT SLAVIC but older (Greek Thracian etc)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?20905-European-Christmas-Customs&p=390338&viewfull=1#post390338




post #12


But has it something to do with the Thread?
 
You are wrong to dress in masks and costumes of animals and sing songs from door to door is typical Slavic custom.

Check it up in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koleda

Nop it is ancient Greek and Thracian that took it forma at Roman times, not at all Slavic
read above post
Kolenda - καλαντα from roman Calendar
annexation by East Churches only in case that the song say about Jesus etc.
 

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