How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Hauteville]

Paleolithic continuity is now least probable because of the young age of I2a-Din (according to new estimates).

So, your hypotesis for the spread in the Balkans is?I'm really interesting to that for some reasons.

 

[Tomenable]

I think that it came with Slavs, but maybe not only with Slavs.

First of all, linking haplogroups to particular ethnicities is always uncertain.

After all, the same haplogroup can be shared by several ethnic groups.

 

[Hauteville]

Thanks to that.

 

[clintCG]

An anthropological paper about Croats:

https://ariets.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/15311416.pdf

This proves nothing. Croatia was settled by both Goths and Slavs, and northern parts are very strong in R1a. Also if they got their skulls from town settlements it is more probable that they are Slavic.

I already posted what Coon said of modern Montenegrins and Croatian Herzegovinians, how they in almost all characteristics differ from your typical Slav, and how closest relatives to them (anthropologically) live in northern Germany and parts of Denmark.

Now let's see what he says about Serbians (that got influenced a lot by migrations from mountain regions):
"The modern Serbs, like the rest of the Yugoslavs, fall more into the Dinaric racial classification than any other. Not as tall as the inhabitants of the mountain chain itself, they attain a national stature mean of about 168 cm., which varies somewhat regionally, reaching the figure of 170 cm. and over as one approaches Bosnia and Montenegro. The bodily build of the Serbs, as with most other southern Slavic peoples, is neither thick-set nor lean as a rule, but of moderate European proportions. A relative sitting height mean of 52.8 and a relative span of 102, emphasize the relative length of leg and shortness of arm. These are the proportions that one finds in southern Germany, rather than in northern Slavic countries

 

[Tomenable]

how they in almost all characteristics differ from your typical Slav

I posted a link to an anthropological paper which says that East Germanic tribes (Goths, Vandals, etc.) were very similar anthropologically to North Slavic peoples.

This might be the result of common ancestry (Balto-Slavo-Germanic branch of IE languages) and lack of mixing with pre-IE inhabitants of Scandinavia.

losest relatives to them (anthropologically) live in northern Germany and parts of Denmark.

Vandals and Goths had nothing to do with northern Germany and parts of Denmark.

Anthropological data shows that West Germanic =/= North Germanic =/= East Germanic. All those Germanic-speaking groups were different from each other.

This proves nothing.

This proves that original Croats (those who established Nin - which was the cradle of Croatian realm - and expanded from there) were anthropologically like Poles. It is of course possible that those original Croats later conquered and absorbed some other peoples (like for example those remnants of Goths if you insist).

Now let's see what he says about Serbians

DNA data shows that Serbs are less genetically Slavic than Croats. First of all Serbs have much less R1a than Croats, and also less I2a-Din.

They probably assimilated a lot of pre-barbarian (be it pre-Slavic, pre-Germanic or pre-whatever - but pre-barbarian) inhabitants of the Balkans.

The same applies to Bulgarians who have a very high diversity of various Y-DNA haplogroups, with predominant E1b1b.

Y-DNA haplogroups of Bulgarians (Eupedia + Underhill for R1a):

E1b1b - 23,5%
I2a - 20%
R1a - 17% (according to Underhill 17,6%, including 16,4% of Z280 and M458 combined - but Z280 more numerous)
R1b - 11%
J2 - 11%
G - 5%
I1 - 4%
J1 - 3%
I2b - 2%
T - 1,5%
Q - 0,5%
N - 0,5%
others - 1%

If we assume that all of Z280 & M458 + all of I2a is Slavic while nothing is Slavic from other haplogroups, then Bulgarians are still just 36% Slavic.

What did Coon write about Bulgarians - did he claim that they are mostly Slavic ???

These are the proportions that one finds in southern Germany, rather than in northern Slavic countries

Southern Germany is mostly Non-Germanic. Predominant genetic ancestry in Southern Germany is Italo-Celtic (as well as Neolithic farmers).

 

[mihaitzateo]

This proves nothing. Croatia was settled by both Goths and Slavs, and northern parts are very strong in R1a. Also if they got their skulls from town settlements it is more probable that they are Slavic.

I already posted what Coon said of modern Montenegrins and Croatian Herzegovinians, how they in almost all characteristics differ from your typical Slav, and how closest relatives to them (anthropologically) live in northern Germany and parts of Denmark.

Now let's see what he says about Serbians (that got influenced a lot by migrations from mountain regions):
"The modern Serbs, like the rest of the Yugoslavs, fall more into the Dinaric racial classification than any other. Not as tall as the inhabitants of the mountain chain itself, they attain a national stature mean of about 168 cm., which varies somewhat regionally, reaching the figure of 170 cm. and over as one approaches Bosnia and Montenegro. The bodily build of the Serbs, as with most other southern Slavic peoples, is neither thick-set nor lean as a rule, but of moderate European proportions. A relative sitting height mean of 52.8 and a relative span of 102, emphasize the relative length of leg and shortness of arm. These are the proportions that one finds in southern Germany, rather than in northern Slavic countries

Slavs settled South Germany!

 

[Tomenable]

They did settle some parts of South Germany, but their presence was of course much stronger in East and North Germany.

As for Slavs in South Germany (in Bavaria / Bayern) - there is a good German publication about them (written in German):

Hans Losert, "Moinvinidi, Radanzvinidi und Nabavinida. Geschichte und Archäologie der Slawen in Bayern", 2009.

================================

Those particular Slavic tribes which settled in Bavaria aren't well-known today because they were Christianized very early on (compared to other Slavic tribes) and were among first West Slavic groups which got Germanized. Slavs in Franconia (today north-eastern Bavaria) became part of the Frankish state at some point after 740 and became Christianized by Charlemagne around year 800, when he ordered to construct 14 churches for them. Those Slavic tribes were called Moinwinidi and Radanzwinidi (and also Nabavinida) and they lived along the rivers Main and Regnitz, as Charlemagne's document from year 794 AD reveals:

"(...) in terra Sclavorum, qui sedent inter Moinum et Radentiam fluvios, qui vocantur Moinwinidi et Radanzwinidi."

In English:

"(...) in the land of Slavs, who live between rivers Main and Regnitz, who are called Moinwinidi and Radanzwinidi."

Assimilation of those Slavs in Bavaria lasted several centuries. In year 1162 we still have Slavic names among them (for example certain guys Dragan and Gleische from Effelder near Coburg); in 1233 in Herzogtum Meranien we have a certain important guy Konrad Slavir. Slapansgereute (Schlappenreuth) near Bamberg is a settlement founded by Slapan, who was Slavic. His descendants can be traced in sources until the 15th century. According to historian Erwin Herrmann the family of Walpoten from Franconia was also Slavic - their castles have names of Slavic origin (Trebgast, Zwernitz). Medieval von Slawendorf family were also Franconian Slavs. Slavic population of Slawendorf (later called Altenstadt, today part of Bayeruth) preserved their language until the 14th century, as there are 14th century documents which say about Slavic inhabitants there. Near Weichenwasserlos there is a toponym Grotze suggesting existence of a Slavic castle. This Grotze is surrounded by settlements with names of Slavic origin - Granitz auf der Dobrich, Dobdansdorf in den Tibitzen, in der Peusteritz. Graitzstein, Greyczberg near Staffelstein, Marktgraitz, Teunz are other former Slavic castles in the region. German summary of the article about those Slavic tribes by Jerzy Strzelczyk:

http://s9.postimg.org/qxyj9j8pr/Slavs_in_Franconia.png

The following was the approximate maximum extent of Slavic early westward expansion and compact (large-scale) settlement - which was around year 850 AD: Starting from the north-west, compact Slavic settlement (not including some individual, dispersed Slavic communities which had migrated even farther west but lived in ethnically mixed areas in which Slavs were never majority) encompassed the following westernmost regions: Fehrman island, Wagrien (Wagria), outskirts of Hamburg, Lauenburg region, Lüneburger Heide, Wolfsburg region, Magdeburg region. South of Magdeburg the boundary of ethnic Slavic territory can be drawn as a meridional line extending up to Erfurt and the eastern part of the Thüringer Wald. From the Thüringer Wald the boundary was a line extending in south-western direction up to the River Main and the outskirts of Bamberg. From Bamberg the 9th century Slavic-Germanic ethnic boundary sharply turned towards Austrian Linz, and then once again turned meridionally, extending up to the Alpine city of Liezen at the River Enns. In the Alps groups of Slavs migrated through mountain valleys up to eastern Tirol and the Upper Drava River. There was also large-scale Slavic settlement in the Julian Alps, in area north-west of Udine, and in what is today the Provincia di Gorizia of Italy. Slavic westward colonization did cross the Saale River, in the following area: from the southern outskirts of Magdeburg, through the area of Erfurt, and up to the Thüringer Wald and the Main River near Bamberg - situation in year ca. 850 AD was roughly like this:

http://s27.postimg.org/diabe9q2r/Slavs_west_of_the_Saale.png

One group of Slavs migrated even as far as the Rhine - but in that area they were just a Slavic drop in a sea of other ethnicities.

There was also a time - from year 804 to year 809 - when Slavs, united with Charlemagne, fought against Saxons. At that time Slavs captured the region of future Hamburg (at that time it did not yet exist, as it was built by Charlemagne in 808-809) and all lands of Northern Saxons - known as Nordalbingia. I'm not sure if significant numbers of Slavs actually settled there, but some did (read below). During those 5 years Slavs had access to the North Sea. In 880 Slavs captured Hamburg in cooperation with the Danes. And in 983 Slavs (the Obotrites under king Mstivoj) once again captured and destroyed Hamburg, this time on their own.

===========================================

Timeline of the early phase of history of Slavs in Germany, from the beginning of historical record until the death of Charlemagne:

⦁ 512 - the Heruli migrate from middle Danube to North Germany and encounter territories already inhabited by Slavs on their way there (Procopius)
⦁ 6th century - Slavic settlement at Prague numbers over 600 houses: http://www.archaeobotany.org/download/posters/novak_roztoky_abstract_whv2010.pdf
⦁ ca. 550 - Slavs start migrating into what is now East Germany
⦁ 595 - Slavs (probably ancestors of Slovenes or / and Croats) fight against Frankish-dependent Bavarian duke Tassilo in modern Austria and Bohemia
⦁ 596 - Slavs, probably allied with the Avars, defeat the Bavarians under Tassilo, killing 2,000 of them
⦁ 610 - battle of Aguntum (4 km to the east of present-day Lienz), Bavarians finally stop Slavic westward expansion in this region (Paul the Deacon)
⦁ 620s - a major war between Slavs and Avars (who had previously been allies)
⦁ 624 - a smuggler of weapons from the Frankish Empire, Samo (born near Sens at the Yonne river in central France), who had previously been illegally smuggling across the border and selling weapons to Slavs, enters Slavic lands, joins Slavs in their fight against the Avars, and due to his merits in battle, united Slavic tribes elect him their king (source: Fredegar's chronicle). Samo was probably a Gallo-Roman.
⦁ 630 - Walluk, duke of Carantanians (northern Slovenes), joins Samo's Federation.
⦁ 631 - Slavic Federation defeats the Frankish Empire in the battle of Wogastisburg
⦁ 631 - after the victory at Wogastisburg Slavic armies invade and plunder Thuringia
⦁ 632 - Dervan, duke of Surbi (Sorbs) joins the Slavic Federation under king Samo
⦁ 636 - Dervan is killed in one of battles against Randulf, governor of Thuringia
⦁ 661 - the federation disintegrates into many realms again after Samo's death. According to Fredegar's chronicle Samo had 12 Slavic wifes, 22 sons and 15 daughters.
⦁ 772 - Charlemagne invades Southern Saxons
⦁ 777 - conquest of Southern Saxons is completed
⦁ 780 - first Frankish contact with the Obodrites at the Middle Elbe
⦁ 782 - Sorbs raid and plunder Thuringia and Frankish-controlled Saxony
⦁ 782 - Saxon uprising against Franks under Widukind. Obodrites side with Franks
⦁ 785 - uprising squashed, Widukind surrenders and adopts Christianity in Attigny
⦁ 789 - Wieczan (Witzan) becomes the supreme duke (rex / princeps) of Obodrites
⦁ 789 - Obodrites mentioned as "old good allies" of Charlemagne (against Saxons)
⦁ 789 - Wieczan asks Charlemagne for assistance against his troublesome eastern neighbours, the Holy Union of the Veleti, under supreme duke Drogowit.
⦁ 789 - Charlemagne, allied with Frisians, Sorbs and Obodrites (under duke Wieczan), invades Veleti. Frankish army crosses the Elbe near modern Wolmirstadt. Allied forces besiege Brenna, the main stronghold of Veleti duke Drogowit. Seeing that resistance is pointless, Drogowit negotiates peace. Veleti pay a single tribute to Charlemagne. Charlemagne satisfied with tribute returns back to Francia.
⦁ 795 - Obodrite duke Wieczan (dux Witzan), ally of Franks against Nordalbingians (northernmost Saxon tribe, who remain independent from Frankish rule).
⦁ 795 - at the Elbe near Bardowick Nordalbingians ambush Obodrites, killing Wieczan
⦁ ca. 796 - Drozko elected new rex / princeps of the Obodrites. Drozko has a son named Czedrog (Chedrog). Drozko continues pro-Frankish policies of Wieczan and Charlemagne is his ally. Danes, Northern Saxons and Veleti are his enemies.
⦁ 795-798 - in revenge for Wieczan's death, Charlemagne raids Nordalbingians and carries out first forcible population transfers and deportations of Saxons.
⦁ 798 - battle of Swentana (Bornhöved) between Obodrites under Drozko and Nordalbingians (at the same time Charlemagne's army is near Minden, raiding Ostphalia). Obodrites win. About 3 - 4 thousand Saxons perish.
⦁ 799 - son of Charlemagne mediates in conflict between Obodrites and Veleti
⦁ 804 - conquest of Nordalbingians by Franks (with Veleti help) is completed, forcible deportation of over 10,000 Nordalbingian men, with families, to Gaul.
⦁ 804 - in Hollenstedt at the Elbe Drozko is crowned King by Charlemagne, he is also awarded Nordalbingia, which becomes part of the Slavic Obodrite realm (sources: Ann. Regni Francorum a 804, Chron. Moiss a 804). Archaeological evidence of Slavic settlements and pottery in Nordalbingia discovered in Hamburg and in Domplatz, dated to 8th-9th centuries (R. Schindler connects these with Drozko's reign).
⦁ ca. 805 - Charlemagne fortifies Frankish-Slavic border (limes sorabicus and limes saxonicus) and establishes permanent military posts along it. He introduces capitulare duplex in 805 - a kind of embargo for export of weaponry to Slavic lands (including even his allied Obodrites). Several places are chosen for trade with Slavs.
⦁ 805 - Franks invade the Sorbian-Lusatian tribe of the Glomaci
⦁ 805 - duke Lecho of the Bohemians (Czechs) dies in battle against Charlemagne
⦁ 806 - Sorbs (Siurbs) agree to pay tribute to Charlemgne after their duke - Miliduch (Milidouch / Milito) - is killed in a battle against Franks near modern Halle.
⦁ 808 - Drozko, king of the Obodrites. Godelaib, one of their minor dukes.
⦁ 808 - the Danes under duke Godfred (his realm is in Jutland), allied with the Veleti, invade the Obodrite realm (Jutland had previously become a refuge for Saxon refugees during Frankish-Obodrite invasions of Nordalbingia). Danes and Veleti manage to capture several Obodrite strongholds in the process.
⦁ 808 - at least two out of member-tribes of the Obodrite realm, Smolincy and Linianie, betray and unite with Danish-Veleti army. King Drozko is forced to abandon his realm and escapes to Francia. Godelaib is captured and executed. Godfred annexes Nordalbingia, two other Obodrite provinces - Obodrsko and Wagria - pay tribute.
⦁ 808-809 - Veleti wage offensive war against Obodrites and then against Franks
⦁ 808 - Charlemagne sends his son to crush the Veleti and Obodrite traitors, but he is defeated and has to retreat. Godfred proposes peace to Charlemagne, negotiations take place in Bandenflut at the Stör River, but they fail and war continues on.
⦁ 809 - Drozko returns from exile to his country. He signs truce with Danes in exchange for giving them one of his sons (maybe Chedrog) as a hostage. He allies with Saxons against Veleti and these Obotrite trines which seceded from his realm. Allied Obodrite loyalists and Saxons besiege a stronghold of Smolincy at Connoburg. The stronghold is captured and destroyed, power over rebellious tribes is restored.
⦁ 809 - Godfred violates the truce and invades Obodrites, he demolishes Slavic coastal town at Rerik (near modern Wismar), and deports local merchants to Haithabu (Hedeby), Denmark. Drozko is killed by Danish assassins at Rerik.
⦁ 809 - after the death of Drozko Charlemagne deprives the Obodrites of Nordalbingia and incorporates it to his Empire. The land is depopulated due to war, disease and deportations, so he brings in new settlers from entire Empire. Charlemagne establishes three new castles to strengthen the defence of his borders: first is at Eselfeld at the Stör River, second is at Hamburg, third is at Hochbucki near Lenzen at the Elbe.
⦁ 810 - Veleti attack the Frankish Empire and destroy their new castle at Hochbucki
⦁ 812 - Franks and Obodrites (under their new grand duke, Slavomir) in retaliation invade Veleti territories and manage to force them to pay a tribute.
⦁ 813 - coronation of Louis I by Charlemagne in Aachen.
⦁ 814 - death of Charlemagne, Louis I takes power in the Empire. Those of Slavic tribes which had been paying tribute to Charlemagne, stop paying it.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Next thing we will find out is that the Viking raids are linked to Slavic expansion and that in fact that so called R1A Norse is Slavic .
Slavic people went and conquered Norway and Denmark and Sweden,settled there,learned Norse language and after,started to raid in Great Britain,France and so on.

 

[Tomenable]

Events of the Slavic expansion that I described above all took place between years 490 and 814 (the death of Charlemagne).

The Viking voyages started later than events that I described - after 792, when Scandinavians figured out the technology of long-distance sea travel.

Scandinavian R1a is mostly Z284, which has the highest frequency in Norway and most likely came to Scandinavia with the Battle-Axe culture.

It is likely that R1a Z284 was present in Scandinavia even before R1b migrated there. So no, I do not link it with Slavic expansion.

Slavic people went and conquered Norway and Denmark and Sweden,settled there,learned Norse language and after,started to raid in Great Britain,France and so on.

As a matter of fact historical sources (including Medieval chroniclers Orderic Vitalis, Saxo Grammaticus and Adam von Bremen) mention that Slavic warriors - including Obotrites, Veleti and Poles - participated in Danish invasions of Great Britain. That's because the kingdom of Denmark and the kingdom of Poland were good allies in the Middle Ages. The Obotrites were also Danish allies during some periods, but if you read the timeline I posted above, then you will see that politics in the region was complicated and alliances frequently changed. There was no "Germanic solidarity" or "Slavic solidarity", as Slavic realms often fought as allies of Germanic realms against other Germanic-Slavic alliances. Religion was more important than language or ethnicity. Poland was Christian and fought against Pagan Slavs west of it.

English "Historia Ecclesiastica" written by Orderic Vitalis, says that in 1069 Sveyn Estridsen's Danish army which invaded England was supported by Poles and Veleti. And "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo Grammaticus wrote that Harald Bluetooth's army included a lot of Slavic mercenaries. Also Cnut the Great's army which invaded England in 1015 included Polish troops - given to him by his ally, Polish king Boleslav I. This is even mentioned by wikipedia (source: Lawson, Cnut, p. 49):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great#Conquest_of_England

If these facts - mentioned by reliable sources - aren't known to the general British public, then it must be due to their Anglocentric ignorance and chauvinism.

=====================

Poland and Denmark had an alliance in the 11th century (for example German chronicler Thietmar - who was hostile to both Poland and Denmark - mentioned that). Polish reinforcements supported Denmark in its campaigns. According to Medieval sources such as "Historia Ecclesiastica" by Orderic Vitalis, Adam of Bremen, "Chronicon Thietmari" by Thietmar, "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo, "Cnutonis regis gesta sive enconium Emmae reginae" by a monk from Saint Bertin, "Jomsvikinga Saga", and other sources, Polish troops participated in Danish invasions of Britain. According to Orderic Vitalis the Poles (Poleni) as well as the Veleti (Veleti) participated in Svein Estridsen's invasion of England in 1069. Cnut the Great when he invaded England in 1015-1016 also had Polish reinforcements. Finally Harald Bluetooth employed Slavic mercenaries - according to "Gesta Danorum" - but Saxo doesn't mention if there were Poles among them. Also Helmold's "Chronica Slavorum" mentions Poles being used as mercenaries by other armies. In year 1000 Emperor Otto I got 300 Polish Loricati (armoured cavalry) from Polish king Boleslav I.

Denmark and Poland have a long tradition of being good allies. Not only against Germany, but also against Sweden.

So stop your Pan-Germanic rubbish and look at the reality. Germans were enemies of Denmark. They Germanized most of Schleswig - which was originally Danish land. First capital of Denmark - Hedeby - is now located in Germany. City of Schleswig - another historical capital of Denmark - is also in Germany.

In the Early Middle Ages ethnically Danish people lived as far south as the Bay of Kiel and the mouth of the Eider River.

Later German "Drag nach Norden" pushed the ethnic Danes farther north, just like they tried to push the ethnic Poles as far east as possible.

As a person of Polish-Lithuanian, Slavic and Baltic ancestry, I consider Germans historical enemies of my people. But not the Danes.

So I'm not anti-Germanic, because the Danes were not my ancestor's enemies. Only the Germans - or actually die Deutschen (their proper name).

 

[clintCG]

Vandals and Goths had nothing to do with northern Germany and parts of Denmark.

Anthropological data shows that West Germanic =/= North Germanic =/= East Germanic. All those Germanic-speaking groups were different from each other.

Of course, but South Slav=East Slav=West Slav always... please.
I don't expect Slavs to bring typically Germanic phenotypes... or maybe I am wrong?

This proves that original Croats (those who established Nin - which was the cradle of Croatian realm - and expanded from there) were anthropologically like Poles. It is of course possible that those original Croats later conquered and absorbed some other peoples (like for example those remnants of Goths if you insist).

Nations today are modern construct, as difference between, for example, Herzegovina and Zagorje Croats, is huge.
Croats "expanded" from Nin? Interesting. Not even 10% of Croats are descended from medieval town population.
How would you explain that modern Croats (Herzegovina-lower Dalmatia especially) and other Slavs are so different? Why don't main Croatian phenotypes apear in other Slavs, and vice versa?

By the way- on skulls you can not examine pigmentation, nor you can examine various facial characteristics you can examine on living descendants. Those data was just raw measurements. I am quite sure medieval German and medieval Pole would get as much of matching as they got with Croats...

When you have living descendats, you get whole another story.

And about non-town residents of Middle ages here.
Our non-town population show continuity all the way from middle ages to our modern population. With medieval skulls from Ćipur we have the same nordo-cromagnoid "Borreby" type, and enormous skull size, brachycephaly and high byzogmatic breadth- traits non-existent among other Slavs of that period (Ivanović Božina M. "Antropogeneza i adaptacija Crnogoraca", Glasnik Antropološkog društva Jugoslavije, 1999.; Petar Vlahović: Dinarski tip i njegovi varijeteti u Crnoj Gori).

So we have continuity in phenotype from Middle Ages to modern times in our populations. But we don't have same continuity among Dalmatian Croats, who differ from medieval town Slavic populations.

What did Coon write about Bulgarians - did he claim that they are mostly Slavic ???

I think his opinion was that they were Slavic with strong foreign influences:

Bulgaria was once Thracian country; a few centuries after its Romanization, it was submerged by a Slavic invasion, the advance guard of the movement which brought Slavic speech into Serbia. This Slavic invasion, which resulted in a permanent settlement of the country, was followed by a further invasion of still heathen Ugrian tribes under Turkish leadership, similar to the movement which brought the ancestors of the Magyars to Hungary. The subsequent history of Bulgaria was the opposite to that of Hungary; the Bulgars, who had left their eastern Russian home before the rise of the Bolgar Empire, kept their Ugrian name, but gave up their language, in favor of the speech of their Slavic predecessors. Whereas the Magyars became Catholics, the Bulgars adopted Orthodox Christianity The next invaders of Bulgaria of importance were the Ottoman Turks, who took over the fertile Danubian farm lands, and settled large colonies of Asiatic Turks on them. Sporadic invasions of Tatars from South Russia mingled themselves with this Turkish body. At the time of the Russian conquest of the Caucasus, many Moslem Cherkesses fled to Bulgaria to avoid submission to Christians.


Since the war, many of the Turkish peasants have left Bulgaria, and many of the Cherkesses as well. There are still islands of these people throughout the country, but especially in the eastern lowlands, and there are minor colonies of Greeks, of Tatars, and of Rumanians. To the west, the Bulgarians occupy the greater part of Yugoslavian Macedonia, and border in this neighborhood on the Albanians. To the south, they extend to the head of the Aegean, where their settlements are interspersed with those of Turks and Greeks. Most of the Bulgarians are still Orthodox Christians, but a large minority, especially in Macedonia, is Moslem.

Their cephalic index is closer to Slavic standards than C.I of Yugoslavs:

The mean cephalic index of over 5000 Bulgarian soldiers is 79.6; this varies within the kingdom of Bulgaria from 80.8 in the north, to 79.9 in the southwest, and 78.2 in the south. Christian Bulgars of Macedonia have a mean of 83.3, in the region of Monastir this rises to 85; Moslem Bulgars are less brachycephalic, with a mean of 80.5, while in the neighborhood of Salonika small local samples of Bulgars are actually dolichocephalic, with a mean of 76.4, and in the neighborhood of Adrianople in Turkish Thrace, the mean is only 78.3. Bulgarian йmigrйs in the Crimea have a mean of 78.7.


Thus within the Bulgarian people there is a strong tendency toward dolichocephaly, strong enough to impress mesocephaly upon the nation as a whole. The strongest expression of this tendency is found in the southern part of the kingdom, and beyond Bulgarian territory proper. True brachycephals are found only among the Macedonian Bulgars who live in close contact with Albanians.

The basic element is the Atlanto-Mediterranean, which probably goes back to the Neolithic; the Neo-Danubian is probably of both Slavic and Ugrian introduction, although some of it may be older; the Nordic may be of several origins, including Thracian; the Dinaric is simply the result of Bulgarian admixture with local elements in Macedonia; the Turkic is found mostly in eastern Bulgaria, and then among townsmen and shepherds rather than among agriculturalists. Of these varied elements, the first two are the most important, and the first more than the second. The presence of a strongly entrenched Atlanto-Mediterranean population of Neolithic date in all of the lowland Balkans south and east of the Iron Gate is becoming increasingly evident. In Bulgaria it is geographically most concentrated along the southern ethnic periphery, and among Bulgarian colonies abroad, as in the Crimea.

 

[Tomenable]

I think his opinion was that they were Slavic with strong foreign influences

So he was wrong because modern DNA studies show that they are only 1/3 Slavic in terms of Y-DNA. Maybe more in terms of mtDNA, but it has to be proven.

BTW - read what I wrote above, I am not Pan-Slavic or Anti-Germanic, Goths can be my friends, but stop claiming your stupid Pan-Germanic solidarity.

Pan-Germanism is a 19th century invention (just like Pan-Slavism, by the way). There are great differences between different Germanic peoples (not only in haplogroup frequencies) and also there was no such thing as Germanic solidarity historically. Look at what I wrote above, Denmark and Poland (later Denmark and Poland-Lithuania) were best allies. They historically shared the same enemies - the Holy Roman Empire, Pagan Slavic tribes, Sweden and Prussia-Brandenburg.

If you claim Gothic heritage - O.K., claim it - but don't be pathetic and don't say that Germans are your brothers. No, look at history to see who is your brother, and not at language etc. Slavic Russia for example is the second most dangerous hhistorical enemy of Poles, just after "Germanic" (allegedly) Germany.

 

[clintCG]

Concetration gradient of I2a Din in Yugoslavia still remains unexplained (except with Gothic theory).

I2a Din has TMRCA somewhere in eastern Poland around course of Vistula 2500 years ago (Gothic homeland). According to Nordtvedt, today concentration of I2a Din was caused by mass expansions around 2000 years ago. As we know, there was no Slavic expansions at that time, but around same time Goths started arriving to eastern Europe. Then they moved to Balkans, part that was subdued by Huns stayed.
And then we know that in time of Slavic conquest they "magically dissapeared" from Balkans (having never relocated to Italy- only warriors went there).

Also place where I2a1b M423 split into "Isles", "Disles" and "Dinaric" does not match eastern Europe. It matches eastern Germany/western Poland more.

Please apply some logic...

 

[clintCG]

I think his opinion was that they were Slavic with strong foreign influencesS

So he was wrong because modern DNA studies show that they are only 1/3 Slavic in terms of Y-DNA. Maybe more in terms of mtDNA, but it has to be proven.

BTW - read what I wrote above, I am not Pan-Slavic or Anti-Germanic, Goths can be my friends, but stop claiming your stupid Pan-Germanic solidarity.

Pan-Germanism is a 19th century invention (just like Pan-Slavism, by the way). There are great differences between Germanic peoples and also there was no such thing as Germanic solidarity historically. Look what I wrote above, Denmark and Poland (later Denmark and Poland-Lithuania) were best allies. They historically shared the same enemies - the Holy Roman Empire, Pagan Slavic tribes, Sweden and Prussia-Brandenburg.

If you claim Gothic heritage - O.K., claim it - but don't be pathetic and don't say that Germans are your brothers. No, look at history to see who is your brother, and not at language etc.

That is my interpretation, but if you re-read it you will see that he counts most of them as Atlanto-Mediterannean Pre-Slavic population, some as Slavic and minor parts as Turkic.

WTF man? Where did I claim that Germans are brothers? Or that any of Germanic peoples are my brothers? Why are you trying to turn this in discussion of nationalistic character?
Pan-Germanic solidarity? Where did I mention that in my posts?

If I talk about friends of my nation- we barely ever had any.

 

[Tomenable]

If I talk about friends of my nation- we barely ever had any.

Croatian poet Ivan Gundulic considered Poland-Lithuania to be the best friend of Christian peoples of the Balkans in their struggle against the Turks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Gundulić#Osman

Montenegrins were also under Ottoman occupation. Poles-Lithuanians together with Austrians-Hungarians helped to liberate you from that occupation.

 

[Tomenable]

Please apply some logic...

There cannot really be any logic in such a discussion. These are all speculations, only some more and some less probable.

Do you remember how not such a long time ago R1b was claimed to be the result of Paleolithic continuity in Western Europe ???

After that, they claimed that R1b expanded with early Neolithic farmers.

All of that was totally wrong, as it turns out. We now have ancient DNA samples and new TMRCA and age estimates.

So maybe let's wait for more ancient DNA samples with I2a-Din ???

I already wrote that in 2014 in Poland they started a large-scale research project on ancient DNA. By 2019 there will be results.

If they find I2a-Din in Gothic archaeological sites from the Iron Age in Poland, then I will perhaps admit that you were right.

 

[clintCG]

Croatian writer Ivan Gundulic considered Poland-Lithuania to be the best friend of Christian peoples of the Balkans in their struggle against the Turks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Gundulić

Montenegrins were also under Ottoman occupation. Poles-Lithuanians together with Austrians-Hungarians helped to liberate you from that occupation.

Hah. We were not under Ottoman occupation. OK, northern part called Sandzak was, but it occupies small part. Town centres (except Cetinje) were also. But our clan lands were independent. No one "liberated us". We fought for 500 years, living in old clan system, isolated from rest of Europe. We could have become "privileged slaves" like other Balkanites, but we didn't. As Czech Josef Holeček says in "Černá Hora" , example where handful of men stood their ground for 500 years against incomprably larger enemy does not exist in history. (Reccommended also on that topic from him: Junácké kresby černohorské)

Poles-Lithuanians together with Austrians-Hungarians never did anything to help us. Anything. Only ones that sometimes helped were Russians. We were thankful for their help so we declared war on Japan in 1905. It officially lasted until 2006

In fact whenever we conquered some piece of Ottoman land in 19th century those "European diplomats" always demanded from us to return it to Turkey. Slime.

But I do not know why did you feel such a strong urge to turn this in nationalistic discussion in first place?

 

[Tomenable]

OK, so you were proudly hiding your asses in remote mountainous caves located out of Ottoman sight.

(reminds me of Romanian nationalists and their claim about Dacians surviving 1000 years hidden in caves and not mixing with all the invading hordes)

Very nice. But who cares ??? BTW - did you mention nationalism, or is it just dripping from your posts ???

=====================

Also - please read my previous post (#875).

 

[mihaitzateo]

Nortvedt is of Scandinavian origin.
So I do not know how reliable is what he says about I2-din.
Would be really nice that I2-din is of Gothic origin but than,where are the Gothic words ?
Besides,if you read that book about Goths,Gothica,written by Jordanes is told that Goths came from Sweden,but compared to Swedes they are not that tall.
If you take average male height in Serbians,Croats,Bosnians,Montenegrins is higher than those of male Swedes.
I know that Serbo-Croatian have a few Gothic origin words and also some weird cognates to today Scandinavian languages,like how you are saying chair:
stolica on croatian,stol on swedish.

 

[clintCG]

We were always raising rebbelions in surrounding areas, like Herzegovina

In fact, when they repelled one Turkish attack in 16th century, Montenegrins marched into Bosnia and raised siege of Jajce to rescue Hungarian garrison that was closely hemmed in by Turks. (Stephen Clissold, A short history of Yugoslavia from Early times to 1966, part IV, chapter 3, "the elective Vladikas")

Marching into Ottoman area to rescue other Europeans is far from "hiding asses in mountains".

So you better STFU on things you don't know anything about.

 

[clintCG]

@mihaitzateo no pseudo-history here please.