How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?
 
So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?
Welcome to my problem. All the people that are recorded disappear into the sea of "slavs". Various reasons are always given, as most common is that they were small band of elite and the good boys slavs were oppressed by them, until the elite died out and the slavs were all best friends. The whole "slav" thing was developed to fight germanisation in Austro-Hungary by the purest slavs - Imperial Russia. Later it was version 2.0 with communism. Don't worry, nothing makes sense with slavs, dont even bother.
 
Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.
 
Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.
And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?
 
And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?

have you seen Albanian people taking DNA tests through available DNA companies? If Albanians were Dacians should not the Romanians been genetically the closest group to Albanians? Have you not seen that Romania's are not the closet group to Albanians but Tuscan's and Greeks instead!? Is this the first time you read about genetics? Very naive question in your part!
 
So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
basically this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Origin_slavs.svg
Romans have no records of slavs
 
Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

you have no idea on how many different people settled in western balkans from iron-age dalmatian times to the gothic invasion of circa 400AD ............there are many races entered the area
 
Probably the genetic composition of populations changes little by little in each generation. In the absence of data about the genetic's of the ancestors of Romanians and Albanians over 2000 years ago, we can imagine many.

so has changed the composition of Greeks and Toscans but still they are our closest genetic people, Which means Albanians have nothing to do with Dacians
 
The Jewish and Balkan sub-branches of Y18331-A10959 separated an estimated 2,100 years ago, with no other people participating in the branches but Ashkenazi Jews in one branch and south Balkans people in the other. That is very intriguing to think about, where the MRCA could have lived at the time of separation.
 
Ancient-DNA analysis of teeth and skeletal remains with utilization of miniSTR loci.

In 4 samples from Prague-Břevnov dated in 12 century AD there are two I-CTS10228. Unfortunately, extraction of DYS448 was not successful for both samples, but according to DYS449 both samples should belong to I-PH908.
Kit NumberPaternal line infoPlaceCountyCountryPopulation/EthnicitynHaplogroupDYS393DYS390DYS19DYS391DYS385DYS388DYS389iDYS392DYS389iiDYS459DYS447DYS437DYS449DYS438DYS444DYS481DYS446
Zub 12Ancient DNA 12 century ADBrevnovPragueCzech RepublicI-PH9081324161114-1513131130/318-10153010103113
Zub 15Ancient DNA 12 century ADBrevnovPragueCzech RepublicI-PH90813241115-15131211299-1025152810133113
The second sample has unique value for DYS444=13
I do not know if it is possible to find some more info about cemetery in Brevnov.
 
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Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
basically this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Origin_slavs.svg
Romans have no records of slavs
Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch
 
Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch

This is the question of endonym and exonym, not Romans or not... For example the aformentioned "Celt" is a Greek name, not Roman (Latin). They called them Gaul/Gall.
For example, Germany called Allemagne in French, from the name of Germanic tribe Alleman.

And we also have late Roman names for Slavs, like Antes, Sclaveni or Vistula Veneti.
 
That said, a big part of these "exonyms" are in fact local "endonyms', let 's not confuse everything. "Celt(os?)" is a Greek spelling for some local tribal Celtic name. The very question is that these "exonyms" or "exo-endonyms" reflect contacts and so gives some historical reality to some folks, spite they don't tell us too long about the self-identification and self-conscience of groups or affilied tribes or about their collective name if there was any.
 
What is your toughts on Mygrations map?
It says about the the I-S17250 and its ancestors the following:
Funnelbeaker-> Baden -> Corded Ware -> Unetice -> Urnfield -> La Tene -> Roman Empire

So, I-S17250 can be considered as part of the La Tene culture?
 
Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, thereabouts. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
B083D682-3319-40EC-81BA-7C53A53B6E2C.jpg4B5E128D-9DAE-42D5-82DD-A6B5B957B9D2.jpg
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@ Ralphie boy
@ Demetrios

hm
could that Y18331 be from Vucedol to Ohrid known from archaiologists devastation?
 
Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it also coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, but sooner. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
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Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

yDNA Path to I-Y18331
y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y18331.png


SNPTracker-migration
SNPTracker-migration.jpg


SNPTracker-speed
SNPTracker-speed.jpg


All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of_Greece, but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

What is the source of your image to the left?
 
Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

yDNA Path to I-Y18331
y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y18331.png


SNPTracker-migration
SNPTracker-migration.jpg


SNPTracker-speed
SNPTracker-speed.jpg


All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of_Greece, but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

What is the source of your image to the left?

The other image is from a different SNP tracker in the link below. It uses YFull results whereas the other one uses FTDNA, I think.

https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/
 
I don't understand your question. Can you elaborate?

According Giannopoulos and archaiology the GrecoBrygians came before 2500 BC from Vucedol to lake Ohrid
and from there went down to Mycaenae,

so could this Ydna I be part of them?
 

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