How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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We also have an old scientific paper (2007) in which it is concluded that to Britain possible come some Roman soldiers from Balkans (E1b) and it is not mentioned I2a-CTS10228>Y3120.

http://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm

That I2a-CTS10228 peoples in that time exist in the Balkans then and they would probably come to Britain.

There is also lack of I2a-CTS10228 in the Italians and if at time of Ilirians I2a-CTS10228 exist among them this should be seen in today's Italians.






Agreed with this.

And at the same time Italy has alot of J2b2-L283, which peaks in Gheg Albanians. Central & North Italy in particular.
 
Problem is that many people take for granted theories spread on the internet that do not have any support in current results and researches from Population Genetics. Unfortunately, there is no portal on the internet that summarizes information from public projects and scientific studies about L621 and other haplogroups.

There's an article South Slavic origin and I2a-Dinaric South (PH908) by South Slavic DNA Blog, which summarizes information on the migration of South Slavs and I-PH908. It is very long, but as other members said and evidence suggest, it is more than evident that the South Slavs are more or less 50% autosomal descendants of a medieval population hence they, with a partial exception of Slovenians, they plot differently on PCA from other Slavs. It also has an analysis of a general route of migration for I-PH908 and according to all the information the conclusion is that the haplogroup most probably was not brought by both Serbs and Croats to the Balkans. The origin of the route of migration is evidently, at least generally, somewhere in the Eastern Carpathians, where did live Croatian tribes, but not Serbian tribes, however according to historical sources both Croats and Serbs did not migrate from there yet German-Czech-Polish border.

A very good argument that I-PH908 did not arrive with the West Slavic tribes, including medieval Sorbs/Serbs and Czech Croats, are the Y-DNA results of the most Western South Slavic people - Slovenians - who are genetically closest to the West Slavs whose common ancestry most probably dates to the 7th century, for which it is cited The paternal perspective of the Slovenian population and its relationship with other populations:

The differentiation of the Slovenian population from the rest of the Balkan populations is based primarily on the lower frequency of the I2a1b-M423 haplogroup. The calculated age of this specific haplogroup together with the variation peak detected in the suggested Slavic homeland could represent a signal of Slavic migration arising from medieval Slavic expansions. However, the strong genetic barrier around the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, associated with the high frequency of the I2a1b-M423 haplogroup, could also be a consequence of a Paleolithic genetic signal of a Balkan refuge area, followed by mixing with a medieval Slavic signal from modern-day Ukraine ... Furthermore, the genetic proximity of the Slovenian, Slovakian and, to some extent, the Czech populations, whose territory was united in the early days of Slavic settlement under the Samo’s tribal union, is of particular note (Barford, 2001). The homogeneous genetic strata of these three Slavic countries could reflect a common ancestral Slavic population in the central European region, which was later divided by the settlement of German tribes in the region of modern-day Austria and was influenced (mostly in the Slovenian population) by the South Slavic genetic pool ... AMOVA revealed the highest variation between groups when the Slovenian population was grouped together with other West Slavic populations, suggesting that the West Slavic populations and the Slovenian population are more genetically similar to each other compared with the South Slavic language group, which consists of the Slavic Balkan population and Slovenian population. This finding favours a hypothesis that suggests an origin of the Slovenian language in the West Slavic language group (Bezlaj, 1967; Grafenauer, 1950; Zˇ uzˇek, 2007).

Slovenians are often forgotten from the discussion, but the fact the Slovenians have such a low frequency of I-PH908, that there's a low frequency and variation of I-PH908 among West Slavs, including Lusatian Sorbs who have 0% I-PH908, it can be hardly argued anymore that it arrived with the medieval Serbs and most probably even Croats who also lived and migrated from today's German-Czech-Polish border. People often ignore that contemporary ethnonym ≠ genetics, and as for now the overall scientific data and conclusion is this, probably it will be a hard pill to swallow for some people obsessed proving their nationalistic pride.
 
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@Miroslav
So from what I understand, you're saying I2 didn't arrive with Croats and Serbs? Then who did it arrive with?
 
@Miroslav
So from what I understand, you're saying I2 didn't arrive with Croats and Serbs? Then who did it arrive with?

Well, seemingly that is what current information implies. Here or else can be read exceptional claims that the I2-PH908 surely or majorly arrived with the Croats or Serbs or both, but where's the exceptional evidence? The argumentation also has logical fallacies due to ethnocentrism. For example, contemporary Serbs tend to interpret the 0% among Sorbs as evidence there's no genetical connection between them or question if the Sorbs are "real Serbs" at all, rather than considering the continuity of ethnic identity with genetical discontinuity among Serbs and question if they are "real Serbs" at all. Likewise for example, when we read claims about the arrival with (White) Croats, if we put aside the fact "other" Croats did live around Carpathians and possibility they participated in Pannonian Avars activity all around the Balkans, it doesn't explain the frequency and variation in Bulgaria because they had nothing to do with Bulgarian territory. There's many samples from Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and so on, it had to arrive with/also with other Slavs, and there indeed arrived many Slavic tribes to the Balkans (see this and this image), not to mention that Croats, Serbs and else were probably like Bulgars, a confederation of various smaller tribes who didn't neccessarily originate from the "original" tribe.
 
Slovenians are often forgotten from the discussion, but the fact the Slovenians have such a low frequency of I-PH908, that there's a low frequency and variation of I-PH908 among West Slavs, including Lusatian Sorbs who have 0% I-PH908, it can be hardly argued anymore that it arrived with the medieval Serbs and most probably even Croats who also lived and migrated from today's German-Czech-Polish border. People often ignore that contemporary ethnonym ≠ genetics, and as for now the overall scientific data and conclusion is this, probably it will be a hard pill to swallow for some people obsessed proving their nationalistic pride.

There are some SNP links between White Serbia and Balkan Serbs through I-Z16983 (TMRCA 1650 ybp), Czechs in cluster I-Y6651 are descended from sub-ethnic group Chodove which are connected to Nabian Serbs. Also a German parallel to them.

Also I heard an argument from Serbian admin that the large presence of PH908 is not as required if the presence of Serbs there (in White Serbia) was brief, as well as that Sorbs do not descend from the Serbs, that they lived little bit to the north of them. But I can't comment much on that.

In any case I-Z16983 does look like a hg of proto-Serbs in tribal sense who might not have been that numerous but rather a tribe which assimilated other Slavic tribes. Other PH908 clades might have had different paths.
 
There are some SNP links between White Serbia and Balkan Serbs through I-Z16983 (TMRCA 1650 ybp), Czechs in cluster I-Y6651 are descended from sub-ethnic group Chodove which are connected to Nabian Serbs. Also a German parallel to them.

Also I heard an argument from Serbian admin that the large presence of PH908 is not as required if the presence of Serbs there (in White Serbia) was brief, as well as that Sorbs do not descend from the Serbs, that they lived little bit to the north of them. But I can't comment much on that.

In any case I-Z16983 does look like a hg of proto-Serbs in tribal sense who might not have been that numerous but rather a tribe which assimilated other Slavic tribes. Other PH908 clades might have had different paths.

Wikipedia on Chodove:

During the medieval period, the monarchy of the Kingdom of Bohemia recruited the ancestors of the Chodové from ethnic enclaves within the western Carpathian Mountain region near the borders of what is today Slovakia, Poland, and southwestern Ukraine [citation needed] (possibly including Silesia), relocating these communities to serve as guards along the borders between Bohemia and Bavaria from possible Germanic expansion into Bohemia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chodove

If the above information was correct then Chodové arrved from the area that was in historical sources known as White Croatia, only after the hypothetical outmigration of Serbs might have occurred.

That makes sense as White Croatia has been regarded as a potential source area of PH908 not to mention high fequencies of the said haplogroup in present day Croatian male population.
 
Czechs in cluster I-Y6651 are descended from sub-ethnic group Chodove which are connected to Nabian Serbs.

It is not true. That group was first mentioned in the 13th-14th century (Late Middle Ages), while the mentioned connection to scholarly invented so-called "Nabian Serbs" is part of one of the fringe theories which tried to trace their ancestry to the Early Middle Ages.

the large presence of PH908 is not as required if the presence of Serbs there (in White Serbia) was brief, as well as that Sorbs do not descend from the Serbs, that they lived little bit to the north of them.

It sounds far-fetched. The presence of the Serbs was not brief because are mentioned there in the 7th century and according to historical sources they previously were subjects of the Franks. The refusal to connect Serbs with the Sorbs is problematic because the Lusatian tribes are mentioned only in subsequent centuries, some consider them as Serbian tribes, or Serbian assimilated, while others as separate, so either have direct or close ancestry and relationship, and that's based on historical, archaeological and linguistical evidence. The presence of PH908 is required, and not only, but I2 overall, considering the proximity and relation with Lusatian Slavs and yet that is not the case with contemporary Sorbs. The issue with the Sorbs is that they are the Slavs who have the lowest frequency of I2 (4%). That cannot be ignored, that's a fact, evidence, which must be taken into consideration regarding the regional ethnogenesis through history.

In any case I-Z16983 does look like a hg of proto-Serbs in tribal sense who might not have been that numerous but rather a tribe which assimilated other Slavic tribes. Other PH908 clades might have had different paths.

Yes, it's a possibilty, but considering the evidence, it does not look like a subclade or haplogroup representing "proto-Serbs" at all. It should be R1a-M458, which is found among both Sorbs and Serbs.

If the above information was correct then Chodové arrved from the area that was in historical sources known as White Croatia, only after the hypothetical outmigration of Serbs might have occurred.

It would be also after the outmigration and assimilation of White Croats in the region. We are not dealing with Serbs and Croats anymore for centuries.
 
It would be also after the outmigration and assimilation of White Croats in the region. We are not dealing with Serbs and Croats anymore for centuries.
We are dealing with the I2a-Din haplogroup and its migration paths. Now we see another evidence that supports its origin from, or nearby, the territory of the early medieval White Croatia.
 
I find it amusing how often White Croatia is mentioned by historians. I thought it was more a mythical state? I've also read that most South Slavs were probably settlers from many small tribes that scattered across the Balkans, and that "Croats" and "Serbs" emerged from among these many tribes to gradually become the most powerful and relevant. Eventually they absorbed the neighbouring smaller tribes, until the modern ethnic groups came into being.

Also, Miroslav, I assumed haplogroup I2a-Din came from southern Ukraine and Poland? I believe it spikes in frequency in south-western Ukraine. It's also worth noting that early Croats were considered East Slavs, before they moved more into Poland. There was an East Slavic tribal confederation called the Antes, and that name stuck around in the Croatian language with many Croatian boys being traditionally named Ante.
 
I find it amusing how often White Croatia is mentioned by historians. I thought it was more a mythical state?
It was not neccessarilly a state but a region populated by (White) Croats. Neither It was mythical because it was mentioned in more then one historical source.
 
It is not true. That group was first mentioned in the 13th-14th century (Late Middle Ages), while the mentioned connection to scholarly invented so-called "Nabian Serbs" is part of one of the fringe theories which tried to trace their ancestry to the Early Middle Ages.

Some things other people at poreklo found:
Czech wiki:
"Velký význam však sehrálo přijetí Nábských Srbů (Chodů) Boleslavem I. za strážce západní hranice."
Also here: http://www.pismak.cz/print.php?data=piece&id=426346


https://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstr...aeologicaClassica_16-1971-1_22.pdf?sequence=1
RUDOLF TUREK
ÚZEMN Í PŘEDPOKLADY VZNIK U MORAVSKÝC H ÚDĚLNÝCH KNÍŽECTV Í, 1971
It is also no accident that the primitive shapes
of ear-rings with various trinkets found at Věstonice have some analogues in South Bohemia
(Lékařova Lhota) and also in the southern most tip of the territory of the Serbians living along the Naab River (Matzhausen).


http://stare.luzice.cz/clv/2008/clv_2008-07-08.pdf
"Při stopování dávných severobavorských Slovanů (nejen tzv. Nábských Srbů) narážíme na potíže nejen v tom, že nejsme schopni říci nic o etnické příslušnosti a jazyce, jímž v okolí Řezna mluvili lidé pohřbení s nádobami zdobenými vlnovkou vyrytou hřebenem, ale také ve skutečnosti, že místní jména zčásti či úplně slovanského původu, resp. se složkou Windisch, Wind-, se zhusta vyskytují ve výše položených končinách, méně příznivých zemědělství, v nichž nám zcela chybějí archeologické nálezy slovanského charakteru (to se týká i našeho Chebska."


http://stare.luzice.cz/clv/2008/clv_2008-07-08.pdf
Poučná je též kapitola Sen o životě bez Němců. Zde je uváděn i požadavek na připojení části území srbských Glomačů a v české historii téměř zcela opomíjených Nábských Srbů na jih od Šumavy."


These are all Czech sources.



In Southern Croatia I-PH908 is vast majority of I-Y3120: 96/220 43,64% out of 54.5 % for I-Y3120. In Northern Croatian (Kajkavian area) sample I-PH908 is just 24/220 10,90%.
Another subclade common in Southern Croatia is I-Y56203 (dys19=14), found in Serb clan of Niksici from Tara (not to be confused with Niksici proper who are I-Y52621), as well in some East Herzegovinian samples. It has been hypothesized they might be related to Zachumlians. YF03590 at YFull is a Pole Cisowsky 1500 ybp away. 11 of these in South Croatia. 4 in the North, 7 East, 1 West, 5 in Center. I-Y56203 is under PH908 (as is I-Y52621) though it isn't yet at YFull because there are problems with reading PH908 in BigY.


Along Dalmatian coast there were Travunia, Zachumlia and Pagania. According to the first degree historical source, Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, Narentines (Pagania), Zachumlians, Travunians are explicitly of Serbian origin descending from those Serbs who settled the area in time of Heraclius. This fits into the spike of I-PH908 in Croats from there. I-Y56203 alone makes up 5 % of Southern Croats.


The area where Portifogenitus places the settlement of Croats is of course to the West, there we see spike of R1a, especially R-Y2608 in Chakavian Croats. As you know there is no clear demarcation line between the Slovenian and Croatian Kajkavian. And Croatian Shtokavian is very similar to Serbian. Chakavian is spoken by Croats from Gradisce, Austria etc. Oldest inscriptions in Croatian are Chakavian: Valun tablet from 11th century, Baška tablet from 1100.

1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.
2. Baška is on the island of Krk, there in another study (Barac et al. 2003 - Y chromosome STRs in Croatians) R1a was at 37.8 %, hg "I" (might include some I1s etc) was at 28.4 %.

These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them.

I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.


It sounds far-fetched. The presence of the Serbs was not brief because are mentioned there in the 7th century and according to historical sources they previously were subjects of the Franks. The refusal to connect Serbs with the Sorbs is problematic because the Lusatian tribes are mentioned only in subsequent centuries, some consider them as Serbian tribes, or Serbian assimilated, while others as separate, so either have direct or close ancestry and relationship, and that's based on historical, archaeological and linguistical evidence. The presence of PH908 is required, and not only, but I2 overall, considering the proximity and relation with Lusatian Slavs and yet that is not the case with contemporary Sorbs. The issue with the Sorbs is that they are the Slavs who have the lowest frequency of I2 (4%). That cannot be ignored, that's a fact, evidence, which must be taken into consideration regarding the regional ethnogenesis through history.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17078035


Regional study of Czechs, in Western Czech R., in Klatovy I-P37 is 14.6 %. Klatovy are one of Chodove centers.

Some of opinions I saw from some Serbs also claim Sorbs descend from tre Lusatians and Milchani tribes who belonged to a different archeological culture and only later joined the Serb tribal union. According to Sedov (and other Russian and German archeologists) Luzichani and Milchani belonged to Tornov archeological culture whereas Serbs who lived in modern Czech-German border belonged to Ryusen culture.




Yes, it's a possibilty, but considering the evidence, it does not look like a subclade or haplogroup representing "proto-Serbs" at all. It should be R1a-M458, which is found among both Sorbs and Serbs.


Now that you mention it some Serbs are R-L260 and not only that they are R-Y2905+. I took a look at Sorb R1a's and the dominant Sorb haplotype is basically certainly R-Y2905 whose TMRCA is 2000 ybp, so there might be some connection there. There is in Croats R-Y132940 cluster but they are Y2905-.

R-M458 is 4700 years old and is found in many peoples. Among Serbs M458 is less common than Z280, and under M458, R-YP417 is the most common sublcade. Then there are two clusters of R-A11460, one of whom are connected to the Slavic Berziti tribe in Central Balkans.
 

I've also read that most South Slavs were probably settlers from many small tribes that scattered across the Balkans, and that "Croats" and "Serbs" emerged from among these many tribes to gradually become the most powerful and relevant.

Who are Serbs or Croats is determined by historical records, and that historical records proves or refute genetics.

Today Serbs and Croats share mostly the same Slavic Genetics which has one source and the same path, but the Serbs and Croats at the source(original homeland) are not the same nor they share the same path.

Therefore originally only one tribe coming to Roman Dalmatia if we follow genetics and there are Serbs or Croats or someone else. Serbs have their own historical path and this is an area of Lusatia, Greece (Thessaly) and Roman Dalmatia, none of today's Serbs or Croats have this genetic path or if they have that's a couple percent. Everything else is logic.
 

1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.
2. Baška is on the island of Krk, there in another study (Barac et al. 2003 - Y chromosome STRs in Croatians) R1a was at 37.8 %, hg "I" (might include some I1s etc) was at 28.4 %.

These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them.

The heart of the medieval Croatian state is in Dalmatia and there is the epicenter of I2a S17250

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

R1a-SRY10831
Croatian mainland 0.339 37 0.257–0.433
Krk 0.378 28 0.276–0.493
Brač(Dalmatia) 0.265 13 0.162–0.403
Hvar(Dalmatia) 0.087 8 0.045–0.162
Korčula(Dalmtia) 0.201 27 0.142–0.0277

I-M170
Croatian mainland 0.376 41 0.291–0.470
Krk 0.284 21 0.194–0.396
Brač 0.551 27 0.413–0.682
Hvar 0.659 60 0.557–0.749
Korčula 0.537 72 0.453–0.620

Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database 2011.

West Croatia(Istria, Lika, Croatian Littoral(Primorje)
Out of 220 people 81 person have I2a1 and 42 person have R1a.

I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.

In that area up to Montenegro and southern Serbia historical records also find and Croatians.

You always must go from beginning and historical source, Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia from Lusatia to Greece and from there to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia, there is no genetics that proves that path.
From that area(Narentines etc) are mentioned "Litzike" wich originate in Vistula area but Serbs the not coming from that area and it says that someone else is in that area.

1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

"A detailed description of sampling procedurefor 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Brač, 91from Hvar and 134 from Korčula was reported in ourprevious paper."

Where did you find data for Cres?
 
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In that area up to Montenegro and southern Serbia historical records also find and Croatians.


Yeah, I remember you quoting those men with the added name Hrvat from 1526, while it has been explained by experts (author of the translation included) what it means: captured slaves from the contemporary area of vilayet named Croat/Hrvat, which was way to the West.. Those men of Dalmatian Zagora origin cannot count as any sort of presence.. Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :LOL:, while it is ofc a shortened Christian name Antun->Ante, Josip->Jozo etc. I don't go into such "discussions" other than to point the obvious facts and I told you back then what they are regarding those men with added name "Hrvat", same as other people with "names" identical to other administrative Ottoman units..


You always must go from beginning and historical source, Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia from Lusatia to Grecce and from there to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia, there is no genetics that proves that path.


I-Z16983 in Chodove Czechs, German and various Serbs.
Greek from Corfu IN11576 Z16983+
I-Z16983>A493>A8740 Germans from Unterafferbach, Clausthal-Zellerfeld and Rzepin Poland
Another Pole I-Z16983+ from Lubola, predicted A493-.
One Bulgarian from SE of Bulgaria near border with Turkey (Topolovgrad) predicted as A493+.
There is also one Ukrainian predicted as A493+, Z16983+ confirmed.


So you see I-Z16983 does all that, potential links with tribal Serbs from Western Czechs, also some other people around there. Various Serbs belonging to it, as well as importantly one Greek and one Bulgarian near Greek/Turkish border.
Thus far of "White-Serbian" clades I-Z16983 seems obvious as might R-Y2905 shared by some Serbs and Sorbs.




From that area(Narentines etc) are mentioned "Litzike" wich originate in Vistula area but Serbs the not coming from that area and it says that someone else is in that area.


Knez Mihajlo/Michael Visevic as ruler of Zachumlia was reportedly of Vistula roots but it is not said explicitly he is descended of Zachumlians who lived there. Either way I-Y56203 has some presence there.




Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.


"A detailed description of sampling procedurefor 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Brač, 91from Hvar and 134 from Korčula was reported in ourprevious paper."


Where did you find data for Cres?


The heart of the medieval Croatian state is in Dalmatia and there is the epicenter of I2a S17250


Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.


There was actually a 2nd study from 2016, not 2003 (older one was from 2003), where Cres is included
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22876


Supplementary info, table5 contains SNP calls


Yes I is high in 2003 in Brac (55.1 %), Hvar (65.9 %), Korcula (53.7). But look at this map of Pagania (settled by Narentians), all of these islands are Paganian.
Pagania.jpg


On the other hand in Cres 56.6 % R1a, 3 % I2a, also in Dugi Otok 31.8 % R1a, 11.4 % I2a.


In these northern Dalmatian areas, Chakavian areas you see more R1a. In Paganian, Zachumlian areas you see dominance of I2a. Now per Porfirogenitus river Cetina was demarcation line between Croats and Serbs and Pagania falls outside this line to the South. And he says of their origin what he says.


On some other more Northern islands you see R1a matching I2a.
Ugljan - 25 % R1a, 25 % I2a
Pasman - 38 % R1a, 38 % I2a


On Southern Lastovo, Vis I2a is stronger, only on the Pag island closer to coast I2a manages to beat R1a.


As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample.. (y)

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. :cool-v: I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link?:) I think that was speculated for many decades.
 

Yeah, I remember you quoting those men with the added name Hrvat from 1526, while it has been explained by experts (author of the translation included) what it means: captured slaves from the contemporary area of vilayet named Croat/Hrvat, which was way to the West.. Those men of Dalmatian Zagora origin cannot count as any sort of presence.. Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :LOL:, while it is ofc a shortened Christian name Antun->Ante, Josip->Jozo etc. I don't go into such "discussions" other than to point the obvious facts and I told you back then what they are regarding those men with added name "Hrvat", same as other people with "names" identical to other administrative Ottoman units..



Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi
mention Croats in central Montenegro and in surrounding area of Gacko in eastern Herzegovina.

" Personal names Hrvatin(Croatin) (since 1301), Hrvajin(since 1475), Hrvo (since 1475), Hrvoje (since 1475) and Hrvat( Croat) (since 1475) in the Middle Ages
we find all over eastern Herzegovina: from Bisce near Mostar, Zažablje, Popovo,
Površi and Trebinje to Biograd near Nevesinje, Stolac and Plane near
Bileća(border with Montenegro)

In the Turkish time of slaves or captured Croats there are at the same time and some "gulam" muslim and about 150 thousand Slovenians(if I remember well, large number surely) taken into slavery and there is not a single "gulam" Slovenian at that list(1526) or later meaning that these Croats but also and the Bosnians are indigenous there. Are they indeed captured in their homeland they probably are and that homeland is in the area of southern Serbia.

A large part of the Bosnian army are "gulam" Croatian while Aali (1542.-1599.) (Turkish historian) says following for all of them "gulams" "With regard to the tribe of Croats attributed to the river Bosna, their significance is reflected in the happy spirit; they are known by Bosnia and they have a name from Bosna river.

Otherwise, I already answered that "merd" and "gulam" may be synonymous ie that word "merd" would mean forgotten slave origin. From where these (Bosna merd) Bosniaks came to Bosnia as slaves?

So you see I-Z16983 does all that, potential links with tribal Serbs from Western Czechs, also some other people around there. Various Serbs belonging to it, as well as importantly one Greek and one Bulgarian near Greek/Turkish border.
Thus far of "White-Serbian" clades I-Z16983 seems obvious as might R-Y2905 shared by some Serbs and Sorbs.

There must be an older (ancestor) mutations in the area from where Serbs coming to the Balkans, where are these mutations specifically in which area and which specific mutations are they and where they are in the Balkans.

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.


There was actually a 2nd study from 2016, not 2003 (older one was from 2003), where Cres is included
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajhb.22876


Supplementary info, table5 contains SNP calls

R1a1a1b1a*‐M558 lineage , where are R1a M458?

In these northern Dalmatian areas, Chakavian areas you see more R1a. In Paganian, Zachumlian areas you see dominance of I2a. Now per Porfirogenitus river Cetina was demarcation line between Croats and Serbs and Pagania falls outside this line to the South. And he says of their origin what he says.



Yes I is high in 2003 in Brac (55.1 %), Hvar (65.9 %), Korcula (53.7). But look at this map of Pagania (settled by Narentians), all of these islands are Paganian.


As usual you don't listen what I'm talking about, Serbs coming from Lusatia to Greece and from there to Roman Dalmatia. There is no genetics to prove that path. Do you know what the answer is?

As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample..


Croats speak one language not three, however we have nothing to discuss when language has nothing to do with origin.

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. :cool-v: I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link?:) I think that was speculated for many decades.

The Croats might also be of Chinese origin, but for now genetics proves that they are of Slavic Carpathian origin ie White Croatian.
 
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As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample..

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link? I think that was speculated for many decades.

I realy don't get what you want to say with this bunch of Croatian regional samples.

However I must react to nonsense about Croatian dialects. Do you know that, nearly at the time when Croats arrived to Dalmatia (and Panonia and Illyricum), all Slavs still spoke one language? Languages and dialects started to emerge later.

And where did you get an idea that Croats are of "Alan Iranian/Caucasian" origin? There is no hg nor autosomal, nor anthroplological relation to these peoples.

What caused this flood of nonsense about Croats? Was it the information on Chodove origin that doesn't fit into your (Serbian) agenda?
 
And where did you get an idea that Croats are of "Alan Iranian/Caucasian" origin? There is no hg nor autosomal, nor anthroplological relation to these peoples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Iranian_theory
Most Croats are not, but certain 5 Croats from the 1100 sample who have a very specific G-L293 haplotype are certainly related to a Slovenian G-L293 at FTDNA (near Croatian border), this haplotype is basically confined to Croats (and this Slovenian near the border). There are various G-L293's that have Sarmanian/Alan origin, and various G-L293 were found in Steppe peoples thus far. Slovenian has 111 STR's and I have just successfully estimated what subclade he is!
There is another J1-Z1828 haplotype which is of certain Sarmatian (because of some people in UK, etc)origin occurring in 4 Croats from the study. But this one might be Iazigian, occurs in one Serb. This clade fits perfectly into some aDNA J1 Sarmatian finds from Caucasus.

There is also a Croat R-Z93>S10438 from Zagreb, but he is likely of Avar origin as this clade has an Avar connection. Interestingly there is also an Avar theory of Croat origin among those isn't it. There was one G-L293 in Avars, however these G-L293 do not exist in Hungarians, Romanians..

I'm not playing games here, any Alano-Sarmatian tribe in my book (and in the books of so many others especially prior to deeper Y-DNA tests) generally has alot more value to it than any random Slavic tribe.

What caused this flood of nonsense about Croats? Was it the information on Chodove origin that doesn't fit into your (Serbian) agenda?

I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.
 


I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.
These Serbs mentioned by Porfirogenitus coming from Lusatia and Greece, it means that they do not exist in this area today(if we follow genetics). And Avars are also mentioned in Pannonia but their descendants the not exit in Pannonia. Does not mean if someone is mentioned somewhere that it is there forever. And Croats are mentioned in Illyricum and Pannonia and they are gone, although we have to say that some Croatian (White Croatian)genetics have remained.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Iranian_theory
Most Croats are not, but certain 5 Croats from the 1100 sample who have a very specific G-L293 haplotype are certainly related to a Slovenian G-L293 at FTDNA (near Croatian border), this haplotype is basically confined to Croats (and this Slovenian near the border). There are various G-L293's that have Sarmanian/Alan origin, and various G-L293 were found in Steppe peoples thus far. Slovenian has 111 STR's and I have just successfully estimated what subclade he is!
There is another J1-Z1828 haplotype which is of certain Sarmatian (because of some people in UK, etc)origin occurring in 4 Croats from the study. But this one might be Iazigian, occurs in one Serb. This clade fits perfectly into some aDNA J1 Sarmatian finds from Caucasus.

Are you trying to conclude something about the origin of the whole nation based on coulple of exotic samples found in the present day population? Your methodology does not seem to be very convincing...

There is also a Croat R-Z93>S10438 from Zagreb, but he is likely of Avar origin as this clade has an Avar connection. Interestingly there is also an Avar theory of Croat origin among those isn't it. There was one G-L293 in Avars, however these G-L293 do not exist in Hungarians, Romanians..

Really? You find ONE Avar in Zagreb?!!! Great!!! Who can ever doubt that Croats are of Avar origin?

I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.

You should not copy-paste opinions of other people. Paganians do not descent from 7th century Serbs as the people who lived in that territory never called themselves Serbs during the last 1300 years (and no other source mentioned them as Serbs). Moreover, there is no arceological evidence of 7th century Serbs whatsoever.
 
Are you trying to conclude something about the origin of the whole nation based on coulple of exotic samples found in the present day population? Your methodology does not seem to be very convincing...

Well obviously genetically vast majority doesn't have such origins, nevertheless so many authors hypothesized about said origins, and it was considered preferable by many in the past and likely still to this day among Croats to have such origin.

Well I think once these "exotic" Croats pop up among commercially tested people they might sing the same tune. In fact I see the Slovenian of this cluster has already joined the Ossetian project.

So lets not pretend this is something new, it is not and still there are many Croats who would prefer this to be true, hence no need to raise your eyebrows as if I'm trying to "spoil" something. This also used to be very much mainstream among Croats.

Really? You find ONE Avar in Zagreb?!!! Great!!! Who can ever doubt that Croats are of Avar origin?

Well it is to be expected to find such traces there considering the history etc. I didn't say I consider the Avar theory that serious but who knows.. From wiki:

The theory was initially developed by Otto Kronsteiner in 1978.[24][40] He tried to prove that early Croats were an upper caste of Avar origin, which blended with Slavic nobility during the 7th and 8th century and abandoned their Avar language.[41] As arguments for his thesis he considered the Tatar-Bashkir derivation of Croatian ethnonym;[41] that Croats and Avars are almost always mentioned together

Actually the Zagrebian has cousins among Tatars and Bashkirs!

You should not copy-paste opinions of other people. Paganians do not descent from 7th century Serbs as the people who lived in that territory never called themselves Serbs during the last 1300 years (and no other source mentioned them as Serbs). Moreover, there is no arceological evidence of 7th century Serbs whatsoever.

Well translating those views also involves little bit work from me. Have you been there on poreklo, I saw one Croat arguing there about White Croats and I-Y3120 etc. and yes Serb admin used Chodove, I-Z16983 and other points against him.
About early Serbs, yes there aren't many early finds, but I think Jankovic and others wrote about some..

I agree that Paganians were a specific population in many ways, but the Byzantine emperor/historian had his own sources, him being emperor definitely must have helped in research.
 
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