How much Roman Italian DNA do Iberians have?

[Angela]

Yes, that's what they dated it to that when the study came out. But we just got a newer study with new samples showing that same North African % is linked to an even earlier time period, in the Roman era.

We've had this discussion before. To the best of my recollection this study lumps together the Imperial period and Late Antiquity. Everything depends on the dating of the samples. The Moors were already in Iberia in 700 A.D.

 

[RomanStallion]

It should be noted, most people forget this; the vast majority people from outside the Italian peninsula were not Roman citizens and thus would NOT have been considered “Roman” until the Edict of Caracalla in 212 AD, which awarded citizenship to all free men in the Empire. Before 212, 90% of the inhabitants of the Roman Empire as a whole were not citizens

 

[Angela]

^^I don't see the relevance of that statement to the thread topic.

 

[1337]

I saw a video titled "Spain, Portugal have Roman Italian ancestry" and in the video the guy believes we have upwards of 30-40% Roman DNA. His theory is based off of the closeness to a north italian cline on g25 plots, and that our roman is from north italia. But I do not agree. This seems to just be an algorithm overfitting because north italians are already close to Portuguese and Spanish in ancient admixture. Instead, I believe our Roman is imperial era (southern-central italian-like) it would explain why our cline jumps from basque-like to more southern and closer to north italian.

Anyone have any idea of how much of this roman admixture we have?

Reminds me of that nutcase Croatian female member on ''Apricity'' who claims Roman input genetically changed the Balkans

 

[Davidtab]

The shift in PCA occurs during during the Dark Ages. How can you interpret that? And most of those migrations in Roman Empire were driven by slavery.

The shift in PCA occurs during the Dark Ages in Northwestern Iberia, the corner where a Christian Kingdom remained, the ancient Roman Gallaecia or old Suevi Kingdom. The shift was since 860 because just before that date muslims on the south became "difficult" for christians there, so many christians from south Iberia, who were collecting North African genetics since Cartaginian times to late Roman Empire, migrated to the Gallaecian Kingdom in the northwestern part of Iberia, heavily populating central and southern Leon and Zamora, and arriving as well to southern Galicia, northern Portugal and northern Castile.

When reconquest progressed to the south over the centuries, muslims where sistematically expelled to North Africa, but these expelled muslims were in main part the truly southern Iberians, so their genetics did not almost remained in nowadays Iberia. The truly southern Iberians were heavily replaced by northern Iberians, and this process can be traced today with the genetic studies that explain the genetic pattern of the different northern genetic clusters towards the central and southern Iberia.

That is the reason.

 

[Mmiikkii]

I have another thread on this site I made recently titled: "Western Iberian's North African is 100% from Roman era?"

This makes a lot of sense since it's weird that a bunch of ethnic Europeans will let a group of north africans just take over the country, people only like to be ruled by those of their ethnicity.

There's a lot of haplogroup E in medieval remains, and barely I or R(not even that much J indeed).
Even though females seem to have been preserved.

 

[Angela]

What the heck are you talking about? I pointed out upthread the date for the samples.

Plus, have you just wiped out of your mind the invasion and subjugation of Iberia by the Moors, as well as by Levantines, a subjugation which in some areas endured for 700 years? They may not have wanted "a group of north africans" to take over their country, but it happened anyway. That's on you people, not the Romans.

Try to read scientific papers, even if it's difficult, and try to get a grip. The past is what it is; refusing to acknowledge it just makes people look ridiculous.

 

[Mmiikkii]

I'm saying that it's difficult for a people to just conquer a country as if they were just going for a walk.

It's likely that there were already inmigrants in southern Spain, as it is the case with the city of Rome, if you remember the haplogroups of the Imperial era samples...

 

[MOESAN]

Depends on whose map of U-152 you use.

According to MTA, I have Roman-Iberian ancient matches in Barcelona area in the merchant port, near Valencia in a villa, and in a villa in southern Portugal.

Of course, even if you were limiting your analysis to the Republican area and thus to Italics, you'd have to add other haplogroups. Imperial area you'd have to add othes.

It's been examined by scholars already.

Sotty I'm late on this thread, but let's look at a more recent map of Maciamo Eupedia

 

[MOESAN]

Modelizations and Calculations can change results of analyses (it's enough reading the surveys and threads here and elsewhere.
The proximity of a lot of Iberia regions with Northern Italy is the result of diverse evolutions and colonisations with diverse depths in time: so ancient basic admixtures and recent more drifted ones, not well disentangled in unique 2 diensions PCA's.
In details, I think Catalunya has been an entry door for northern "Italian" (geo) DNA before Roman Empire times, with seemingly some links with Remedello and Rhône culture at Eneolithic, if I remember well.
ATW, "Roman" males (and some females) in Iberia and elsewhere in the Empire were often enough, in fact, nonRoman people under Roman rule. Surely the genuine input has not been very level in every part of Iberia, but as a whole I think this Roman input has not been very higher than some 20% and here I'm generous. Just my todate religion.
Concerning R1b S28/L152 in SW Iberia, I wonder if a part of it could not have been send there by Belgae tribes?

 

[Angela]

Sotty I'm late on this thread, but let's look at a more recent map of Maciamo Eupedia

I think this might be helpful.

 

[Pietro089]

I believe the impact was nearly to none, Modern iberians are pretty much Celt + Native Iberian and the rest made of Germanic and MENA, there very few cities with roman occupation, the domination was cultural, not genetic, its prty much like finnish ppl, who are like 5% Siberian but speak a Uralic language, in my opnion (Based on g25 samples and IllustrativeDNA) a avr Iberian is +/- 45% Celt 35% Pre-Celt Iberian 15% MENA (Mostly NA and Levantine) and the rest is Germanic and Roman.
In mostly g25 i dont even score Italian, in IllustrativeDNA my european side is only Iberian, C. Celt and a little of Sarmatian (Misread PIE maybe?) and my fit generally is ~1, i barely see any Iberian scoring real Italian, when someone score roman or etruscan in 99% of the case its just misread Iberian/Tartesso\Lusitan bcs they are similar in genetic terms, and some Iberians just score N. Italian bcs they are just similar components, The major diference of N. Italians and Iberians are just bcs N. italians have more Anatolia\Levantine like dna and Iberians have more N. African like, if u are a iberian-descendant but more levantine shifted\Admixed (Like me) u prob will score a lot of N. Italian, its just Misread.
IllustrativeDna:

41.2% West African
20.6% Iberian
16.2% C. Celt
9.6% Phoenican
3.0% Egyptian
3.0% Bantu
3.0% S. American
1.6% NW African
1.0% Pygmy
0.8% Khoisan



Fit: 1.095
I just take off Zagrosian\Sogdian\Sarmatian samples bcs my CHG (Part of my yamnaya ancestry) was begin misread, and i dont have any Iranian related ancestry and looks like Jews dont score this too so this dont rly makes sense and the distance are prty much the same (Go from 1.078 to 1.095) so i guess was just misread CHG and ANE

 

[Davidtab]

New studies confirm the emigration of christian southerniberians to free-muslim Kingdom of northwestern Iberia (Gallaecia) in IX century: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...-convirtio-ciudad/00031666196319467683778.htm 50% of people buried in Santiago de Compostela (Saint Jacques in Galicia) between IXc. and XIIc. were not native, two periods, one during IXc. heavy in southerniberians and another period until XIIc. heavy in people from other places in Northern Iberia, Italy, Southern France and England.

These southerniberians, as it was confirmed by genetic analysis, were taking berber genetics all over the time of Roman Empire, so they were the people who brought this kind of genetics to Northwestern Iberia. The different studies are making very much easier the puzzle of this kind of genetics in Western Iberia.

 

[Ιωάννης Γαβριήλ]

I believe the impact was nearly to none, Modern iberians are pretty much Celt + Native Iberian and the rest made of Germanic and MENA, there very few cities with roman occupation, the domination was cultural, not genetic, its prty much like finnish ppl, who are like 5% Siberian but speak a Uralic language, in my opnion (Based on g25 samples and IllustrativeDNA) a avr Iberian is +/- 45% Celt 35% Pre-Celt Iberian 15% MENA (Mostly NA and Levantine) and the rest is Germanic and Roman.
In mostly g25 i dont even score Italian, in IllustrativeDNA my european side is only Iberian, C. Celt and a little of Sarmatian (Misread PIE maybe?) and my fit generally is ~1, i barely see any Iberian scoring real Italian, when someone score roman or etruscan in 99% of the case its just misread Iberian/Tartesso\Lusitan bcs they are similar in genetic terms, and some Iberians just score N. Italian bcs they are just similar components, The major diference of N. Italians and Iberians are just bcs N. italians have more Anatolia\Levantine like dna and Iberians have more N. African like, if u are a iberian-descendant but more levantine shifted\Admixed (Like me) u prob will score a lot of N. Italian, its just Misread.
IllustrativeDna:

41.2% West African
20.6% Iberian
16.2% C. Celt
9.6% Phoenican
3.0% Egyptian
3.0% Bantu
3.0% S. American
1.6% NW African
1.0% Pygmy
0.8% Khoisan



Fit: 1.095
I just take off Zagrosian\Sogdian\Sarmatian samples bcs my CHG (Part of my yamnaya ancestry) was begin misread, and i dont have any Iranian related ancestry and looks like Jews dont score this too so this dont rly makes sense and the distance are prty much the same (Go from 1.078 to 1.095) so i guess was just misread CHG and ANE

Hi, @Pietro089 ! I, just like you, am SSA + Euro with minor amerindian and my results are a little different from yours:


29.6% West African
26.2% C. Celt
16.0% Bantu
10.6% Sardinian
6.4% Phoenician
4.2% Iberian
3.0% South Amerindian
2.2% Italic and Etruscan
1.6% Pygmy
0.2% Caucasian


Distance: 0.871

I score a lot of Sardinian with some Italic and Etruscan, wich could be from The Romans, although, there's also the possibility of a later italian mixture in my family.

I am aware that Sardinians plot over EEF, so I took it off and these are the results:


28.0% West African
17.2% Bantu
17.0% C. Celt
16.8% Iberian
8.4% Phoenician
7.8% Italic and Etruscan
3.0% South Amerindian
1.8% Pygmy


Distance: 0.893

Also, the absense of North Africa is interesting, because I didn't take it off

PS:

These are the results when I take Phoenician and Egyptian out:

29.6% West African
16.8% Iberian
16.0% Bantu
15.8% C. Celtic
11.6% Imperial Roman
5.8% Italic and Etruscan
2.8% South Amerindian
1.6% Pygmy

Distance: 1.029

The distance is still closer than yours

Note that I still didn't take the Norwthwest African out and it still didn't show up

 

[Luso]

One model has me at:

[1] "distance%=1.7256"
Luso
West_Iberia_IA,54.4
Roman_Colonial,17.6
Berber_EMA,10.8
Germanic,10.6
Scotland_EIA,6.6

My mom is who has a lot of roman influence is looks like getting more than avg:

[1] "distance%=1.788"
Luso_mom
West_Iberia_IA,45
Roman_Colonial,27.4
Scotland_EIA,11
Berber_EMA,9.4
Germanic,7.2

and my dad...

[1] "distance%=0.9733"
Luso_dad
West_Iberia_IA,52.6
Roman_Colonial,14
Berber_EMA,12.6
Germanic,11.4
Scotland_EIA,9.4

 

[Davidtab]

One model has me at:

[1] "distance%=1.7256"
Luso
West_Iberia_IA,54.4
Roman_Colonial,17.6
Berber_EMA,10.8
Germanic,10.6
Scotland_EIA,6.6

My mom is who has a lot of roman influence is looks like getting more than avg:

[1] "distance%=1.788"
Luso_mom
West_Iberia_IA,45
Roman_Colonial,27.4
Scotland_EIA,11
Berber_EMA,9.4
Germanic,7.2

and my dad...

[1] "distance%=0.9733"
Luso_dad
West_Iberia_IA,52.6
Roman_Colonial,14
Berber_EMA,12.6
Germanic,11.4
Scotland_EIA,9.4

What model are you using? where can I find it?

 

[Luso]

What model are you using? where can I find it?

It's a model from anthrogenica by the user Ruderico. Feel free to ask him for your results i'm sure he'd do it for you as you're iberian.

 

[Pietro089]

Very cool! What u get when u take off Sardinian, Etruscan and Latin? Sry for taking so much time for asnwer

 

[Angela]

Problem for Mr. Ruderico's calculator is that IBD analysis doesn't find it.

 

[Duarte]

IllustrativeDNA gives me these results when I select all the old samples.

Fit: 0.969 (Very Good)

​

Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC) 33.6%

​

Insular Celtic (210 BC–1000 AD) 25.4%

​

Iberian (730–100 BC) 20.6%

​

Northwest African (580-1160 AD) 8.8%

​

Sardinian (1640 BC–990 AD) 5.0%

​

Bantu 3.8%

​

Pacific Islander (570–980 AD) 1.0%

​

Pygmy 1.0%

​

Southeast Asian (1100 BC–400 AD) 0.4%

​

South Amerindian (1660 BC–1500 AD) 0.4%