Huns, Avars and Hungars

[bicicleur 2]

Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian nomadic groups arrived into the Carpathian Basin from the
Eurasian Steppes and significantly influenced its political and ethnical landscape. In order to shed light on the
genetic affinity of above groups we have determined Y chromosomal haplogroups and autosomal loci, from 49
individuals, supposed to represent military leaders. Haplogroups from the Hun-age are consistent with Xiongnu
ancestry of European Huns. Most of the Avar-age individuals carry east Eurasian Y haplogroups typical for
modern north-eastern Siberian and Buryat populations and their autosomal loci indicate mostly unmixed Asian
characteristics. In contrast the conquering Hungarians seem to be a recently assembled population incorporating
pure European, Asian and admixed components. Their heterogeneous paternal and maternal lineages indicate
similar phylogeographic origin of males and females, derived from Central-Inner Asian and European Pontic
Steppe sources. Composition of conquering Hungarian paternal lineages is very similar to that of Baskhirs,
supporting historical sources that report identity of the two groups.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

 

[halfalp]

Nice that they finally concluded that European Huns are similar genetically to Xiongnus. This can be an open door for further hypothesis. But on their Hun samples they have an U106 individual, wich seems to lead way more to Goths and not ethnic Huns.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Nice that they finally concluded that European Huns are similar genetically to Xiongnus. This can be an open door for further hypothesis. But on their Hun samples they have an U106 individual, wich seems to lead way more to Goths and not ethnic Huns.

yes, it seems they incorporated some Goths from the Pontic steppe

the Huns seem to have divided the Germanic tribes
some allied with the Huns, others with the Roman Empire

 

[markod]

Interesting that the Magyars were your average Carpathian-Steppic population. The highest status individual was I2a-L621.

Quite dark inferred pigmentation by modern standards throughout, and a very pre-modern mtDNA pool.

Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.

 

[halfalp]

yes, it seems they incorporated some Goths from the Pontic steppe

the Huns seem to have divided the Germanic tribes
some allied with the Huns, others with the Roman Empire

Wich makes sense if we follow history no? Ostrogoths allied with Huns and Visigoths going their own way in the Empire.

 

[halfalp]

The preponderance of U106 in Central Europe and Z2124 ( Z93 ). Quite confirms us what history always told. Even tho, i'm impressed by the number of U106 in those samples.

Btw: KeF2/1025Kenézlő-Fazekaszug II/1025895-mid Xth c.M269 (xM412, xU106)L23R1b1a1b ?????

 

[halfalp]

Interesting that the Magyars were your average Carpathian-Steppic population. The highest status individual was I2a-L621.

Quite dark inferred pigmentation by modern standards throughout, and a very pre-modern mtDNA pool.

Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.

What are the odds that the Q1a2 Hun individual was Dark Skinned, really?

Also this individual...

K2/51N1a1a1a1a4U4d2brown/0,99dark/black0,99/0,86dark/0,641100% EU100% EU

Those are crazy make-up and it was only a thousand years ago.

 

[Johane Derite]

I1, I2a, J1 & J2a, huns, wow

 

[markod]

What are the odds that the Q1a2 Hun individual was Dark Skinned, really?

Also this individual...

K2/51N1a1a1a1a4U4d2brown/0,99dark/black0,99/0,86dark/0,641100% EU100% EU

Those are crazy make-up and it was only a thousand years ago.

Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-Eas...30/photos/?tab=album&album_id=894613337290629

 

[Aspurg]

V13 stronk!!!
In Conqueror period samples one V13+ and one predicted V13+ were found.

But in the Early Avar period
MM/227 and DK/701 are R-Z94+, predicted Z2124 under which is S23592 and ofc S10438 found in Bashkir Yurmati.

Leader of Avar siege of Constantinople in 626 was Ermitz (Ermi-Karmin - Karmirhyon - the Red Huns)

And in the Middle late Avar period
SzK/239 E1b1b1a1b1a V13+.. Székkutas-Kápolnadülő

Though on rudimentary autosomal plot he's EU, the anthropological analysis says:
239 fragmented skull with Mongolid features

Maybe he's of a certain clan of Ermi? With something under E-Z17107, as my cousins on the Balkans match the spread of Ermi/Yarmen onomastical traces, and ofc two R-S10438 are found in Bulgaria and Macedonia, as is one found in Zagreb (indicating Avar connection again).:cool-v:

 

[markod]

V13 stronk!!!
In Conqueror period samples one V13+ and one predicted V13+ were found.

But in the Early Avar period
MM/227 and DK/701 are R-Z94+, predicted Z2124 under which is S23592 and ofc S10438 found in Bashkir Yurmati.

Leader of Avar siege of Constantinople in 626 was Ermitz (Ermi-Karmin - Karmirhyon - the Red Huns)

And in the Middle late Avar period
SzK/239 E1b1b1a1b1a V13+.. Székkutas-Kápolnadülő

Though on rudimentary autosomal plot he's EU, the anthropological analysis says:
239 fragmented skull with Mongolid features

Maybe he's of a certain clan of Ermi? With something under E-Z17107, as my cousins on the Balkans match the spread of Ermi/Yarmen onomastical traces, and ofc two R-S10438 are found in Bulgaria and Macedonia, as is one found in Zagreb (indicating Avar connection again).:cool-v:

Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.

 

[Tomenable]

Looks like 1/3 of the Early Magyar men were of Slavic origin, 10/29 (34,5%) of Y-DNA is Slavic R1a-CTS1211 and I2a(xS17250).

Some excerpts:

"The West Eurasian R1a1a1b1a2b-CTS1211 subclade of R1a is most frequent in Eastern Europe especially among Slavic people. This Hg was detected just in the Conqueror group (K2/18, K2/41 and K1/10). Though CTS1211 was not covered in K2/36 but it may also belong to this sub-branch of Z283."

Avar subjects:

"This Avar population buried the deceased in catacomb graves, following Eastern European traditions. One sample in our dataset (HC9) comes from this population, and both his mtDNA (T1a1b) and Y chromosome (R1a) support Eastern European connections."

Autosomal DNA:

"All Hun age individuals revealed admixture derived from European and East Asian ancestors, while 8/15 Avar age individuals showed predominantly East Asian origin with both methods, 4 individuals were definitely European, while two showed evidence of admixture. The KFP/31 sample gave contradicting results due to low coverage. Conqueror samples from the Magyarhomorog (MH) and Sárrétudvari (SH) cemeteries showed mostly European ancestry in agreement with their phenotypes and Y Hg-s, though MLR detected a significant east Asian ancestry component and the SH/103 woman was classified East Asian despite her blond hair. The Karos (K) and Kenézlő(KEF) populations were profoundly admixed, comprising individuals of purely East Asian, European and mixed origin in nearly identical proportions, again in agreement with results obtained from uniparental and phenotypic markers."

Conqueror period:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

R1a-CTS1211
Karos I/10
Karos II/36
Karos II/41
Karos II/18

I2a(xS17250)
Karos II/16
Karos II/52
Karos III/1
Magyarhomorog/15
Magyarhomorog/16
Magyarhomorog/9

Phenotypes, pigmentation (from Table 2. and Table 3. in the study):

Summary of anthropological data:

Y-DNA haplogroups by time period (from Table 1. in the study):

There is some R1b-U106 as well:

 

[Tomenable]

I don't know why do the authors claim that I2a is Cucuteni-Trypillian?

All of the Cucuteni-Trypillian samples so far were G2a and E, not I2a:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/49.449/30.072

I1926 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H5a
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

I1927 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H1b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1

I2110 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: T2b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

 

[Joey37]

Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.

 

[Tomenable]

Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.

I don't know, considering there was a lot of R1a / I2a and R1b-U106 / I1 already in the Conqueror period.

See the tables posted above, there was R1b-U106 and I1 long before any Medieval German "Ostsiedlung".

Guess you mean Germanic tribes in general, not just Germans. But some of that U106 was Asian-admixed.

 

[Aspurg]

Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

Might be, haven't looked at them closely yet.

Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.

It is still a legit Avar burial (with horse harness) with a much higher status than any numerous non-Avar people around.

The glorious Khagan was N1a1a.. Good to see one likely G-L293..

 

[markod]

Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.

How did you come to this conclusion? The richest graves are I2a.

 

[Regio X]

I don't know why do the authors claim that I2a is Cucuteni-Trypillian?

All of the Cucuteni-Trypillian samples so far were G2a and E, not I2a:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/49.449/30.072

I1926 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H5a
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

I1927 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H1b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1

I2110 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: T2b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

Neither do I.

Btw, AFAIK, I1927 (the Trypillia outlier), for some reason I don't know, was eliminated from the table in the original study.
We have now:
I1926 G2a2b2a / H5a
I2110 G2a2b2a / T2b
I2111 G2a / HV
I3151 E / U8b1b

 

[halfalp]

Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-Eas...30/photos/?tab=album&album_id=894613337290629

They say their skin was Dark, and Steppe had already the snp's found in modern europeans 3000 prior of those samples. Something dont match.

 

[Angela]

They say their skin was Dark, and Steppe had already the snp's found in modern europeans 3000 prior of those samples. Something dont match.

No, not if by steppe you mean Yamnaya and Catacomb. They were probably darker than any modern Europeans. Re-read the Mathiesen and particularly the Sandra Wilde paper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977302/

If you're talking about the Andronovo types, they, as Markod indicated, probably picked up the lighter pigmentation in eastern Europe.

Plus, the Avars are mostly East Asian, and the Huns Eurasians. They're not going to have all of the European specific alleles for de-pigmentation. It's unclear whether East Asians at that time had high levels of their own different skin pigmentation snp.