Huns, Avars and Hungars

Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides),

The burial is dated to Mid-Late Avar period. More precisely second half or 3rd quarter of 7th century.. So it is not from the late Avar period (720+) but the Mid period.. That he was a local recruit is a possibility but there are few good reasons why a non-indigenous Eastern V13 might be expected in an Avar burial...

Besides any find is precious there are hundreds of potential samples to be taken.. In any case I'll have more insight about his likely earlier whereabouts..

it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.

E-V13 has been present in Carpathian basin for thousands of years, why should a local V13 be of "Balkan" origin.. Dacians are not geographically "Balkan". Balkan this, Balkan that, Balkan, Balkan... Balkan is an unauthentic term anyway derived from the Ottoman Turkish, so taking so much pride in this term is self-defeating is it not..:bored:
 
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The leader of the Hungarian conquerors was I2a L621 (S17250) associated with Slavs mostly south
I2a-L621 is very common among Belarusians (especially Southern), Western Russians and Ukrainians.

These are hardly "south" Slavs. Check my old thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31147-I2a-Din-distribution-among-East-Slavs

The original bearers of it were probably from Cucteni-Tripolye.

Not really, the Cucuteni-Trypolye had typical Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a and E1b.

Mesolithic Y lineages probably survived further north - in Pripet Marshes - or further east.

Proto-Slavic homeland was probably this archaeological culture (I added locations of modern cities in this region):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture

UtImtwe.png


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slavs out of marshes theories

Kiev Culture's territory was actually just to the east of Pinsk Marshes.

The marshes themselves were either sparsely populated or uninhabited, but most likely under Slavic control.

And probably Early Slavs used those areas for fishing, hunting, etc.

This is how the landscape in this region looks like (it could not support all of the large Proto-Slavic population):

262cc7003ec2284376a351c73b93ebbb.jpg


7580f0d3283ef8a8ec4be75643adada1.jpg


 
At first: The horseman tribe-alliances from the steppe never came from a single root. The whole alliance was wearing the name of the core tribe or clan. The leading layer of the joined and defeated peoples identified themselves with the core. After the hun core crossed the Volga and defeat the alans, the alans riding with the huns against the eastern germans. Not only ostrogoths, there were the rugians, heruls, skirii, gepids, quadii too. After defeating Ermanarik, these peoples became the most loyal allies of the huns. Most than half of the huns army were germanic. They called Attila the last great Hun leader. It is a german name, not a hun. In the Era of the Hunnic Empire, the leaders of the vassal tribes called themselves huns. So among the hun elite, were so many eastern germanic and eastern european Y haplogroup.

Avars. Original form in Byzantian annales: Uarchonites. (Old hungarian name of the avars: varkun or várkony) It was a mixed nation from the beginning. Uars from Inner Asia and Chons (huns, heftalites?) from Central Asia. In the Avar Khaganate, if a slavic or gepid, or a bolgarian turkish chief got a belt, he became avar. He and his offspring. They dressed and buried like the avars.

Magyars. It was originally just only one tribe's name from the conquering seven(or ten). These tribes had a blood contract with each other, before the campaign. Why? To become brothers. Why? Because they were not related to each other. They were completely different roots. There were also Finnugrian, Central-Asian and eastern-european bloodlines among them. Like today. There are certainly many later slavic, germanic and romanian elements merged with the hungarians, but the core remaining the IX. century population descendants. If not, how can be exist in today a non indo-european language as an island in the middle of the indo-european ocean? So I'm sure, among the conquering magyars were hun fragments, and germans (remaining fragments from the steppe and varangians from Scandinavia), and eastern slavs and God knows what else.

My results. I have identified the Y haplogroup of 15 families. 11 my own ancestors and 4 my wife ancestors. They all came from the northeastern part of old Hungary. (Szabolcs, Szatmár, Zemplén, Sáros, Szepes and Gömör county) Today: Szabolcs-Szatmar county in Hungary, Satu Mare county in Romania, Presov and Kosice region in Eastern Slovakia. The turkish armies has never been to this area, and the mongolian destruction was not as large as in the middle of the country (Alföld). So the results:
1.) E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-A19238. family name: Küzmös. Origin of the name: unknown, surely non-hungarian
2.) E1b1b-V13-Z5018 (not completed yet). f.n: Szánthó. hungarian name
3.) I1-L22-FGC14412* fn: Szilágyi, hungarian name
4.) I2a-L621-A1328* fn: Tóth - hungarian name, but it means in the old hungarian language: slavic man
5.) I2a-L621-Y3118* fn: Kiss - hungarian name
6.) I2a-L621-Y3118 (not completed yet). fn: Molnár -hungarian name
7.) Q-L330-BZ427 fn: Csehely, origin of the name: unknown, in hungarian it means nothing. According to Maciamo, this bloodline is hunnic. But I think: alan.
8.) R1b-U106-DF98-S22116 fn: Dobi, hungarian name
9.) R1b-U106-L48-S21728 (not completed yet) fn: Varga, hungarian name
10.) R1b-U152-Z49-S8172* fn: Béres, hungarian name
11.) R1a-L664-S2866* fn: Simon, hungarian name
12.) R1a-M458-YP415 fn: Kalenyák (originally Kalinyak) slavic name, probably rusin.
13.) R1a-CTS1211-YP4706 fn: Küzmös, origin of the name unknown.
14.) R1a-CTS1211-YP1701* fn: Petruska, slavic name, rusin or slovakian
15.) R1a-CTS1211-YP234* fn: Király, hungarian name

Just 2/15 bear slavic name, and these two from my ancestors has slavic Y DNA. They will surely melt later.

Among the hungarians the family names were formed in the 1400s. So the other 13/15 (including the other slavic, germanic, celtic Y chr bearers) were hungarians before the ottoman wars.
 
Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.

Yup. People like to still ignore it though. There’s a shotgun call for M458 in supplementary data, though idk if it was a commoner or elite.
 
Very interesting indeed! I am still amazed that the Byzantine Empire lasted 1000+ years, what with all the palace intrigue, the poisonings, the army uprisings not to mention all the invaders.
Byzantine was way of thinking, it was not a new beginning. It was not kept by force most of its existence! Mostly reflected the Roman traditions of doing things. Eastern Christianity was the propaganda of the time and it was not easy to change the habits of populations no mater who was running the business. Had Ottomans not interrupted its existence probably we would have emerged in a single state.
 
I2a-L621 is very common among Belarusians (especially Southern), Western Russians and Ukrainians.

These are hardly "south" Slavs. Check my old thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31147-I2a-Din-distribution-among-East-Slavs



Not really, the Cucuteni-Trypolye had typical Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a and E1b.

Mesolithic Y lineages probably survived further north - in Pripet Marshes - or further east.

Proto-Slavic homeland was probably this archaeological culture (I added locations of modern cities in this region):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture

UtImtwe.png


DzKzPSk.png


Here it is
YIV0TQD.jpg



It's highest diversity is probably Carpathians-Dnieper/

Utevska (2017) found the haplogroups STR haplotypes have the highest diversity in Ukraine, with ancestral STR marker result "DYS448=20" comprising "Dnieper-Carpathian" cluster.
Highest diversity does not overlap with Kiev culture that much but more with Chernyakov on that map.

The areas you mentioned was theory held by Ken Nordvedt.
Also among West Slavs Poland for example it's percentage are much smaller.
 
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/415760v2

Hmmm...according this, my Q-BZ427 ancestorswere direct paternal line descendants of the Great Khagan Bayan? I have the contact the authors.
The BigY700 test from this bloodline finished just two weeks ago. The YFULL analysis project has not been completed yet.

According the annales from Byzantine, Bayan had many children....hmmmmm (again)......
 
Regarding Slavic I2a, researchers of this study say the following:

"Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9)most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16 (see below). This Hg of European origin is mostprominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups. It might have been amajor lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture and it was present in the Baden culture of the CalcholiticCarpathian Basin."


As we can see there is no Slavic I2a1 haplogroup in Hun, early Avar and mid to late Avar samples. But it appears in Hungarian conqueror samples but also with few looks like joined minority haplogroups that were probably picked up somewhere on their way like J1, J2a, R1b, I1, and so on.


Slavic marker I2a was most certainly spread with early 7 century arriving Slavs rather then with any of these groups analysed in this study. Even tho with later arrival of Hungarians, there was again brought for sure a nice portion of Slavic groups. I would conclude that Hungarians used Slavs pratially as their allies and warriors in this process but also few other picked up HGs like mentioned above.

Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides), it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.

The first problem of finding Slavs among Huns and Avars is that they did not test commoners from that period.
The second is explained in the paperwork referenced in the paper at the end:
Certainly, there were Slavs among the peoples inhabiting the Central Danubian Basin during Avar times. There are several obstacles that block the way of an anthropological approach to this problem. The most significant has been the lack of skeletal finds from that period. In the 6th-8th centuries Slavic peoples still cremated their dead. They might have lived in regions neighbouring those inhabited by the Avars, but they left no burial sites with skeletal material and this made them once and for all “invisible” for anthropological research. Our only remaining choice is to proceed with indirect methods. Anthropology produced few results in the analysis of the Slav lineage of Hungarian ethnogenesis yet (Bottyán 1975)
Link

Anyway, maybe a bit strange explanation by the author of the study on the link, because there is an anthropological study of AvaroSlavs and Croats that found differences between Slavs west and east of Danube in Pannonian Basin. Sedov (Russian archaeologist) also wrote that AvaroSlavs did not use cremation.
 
Yes, in the paper with Y STRs the Avar N clustered with Buryats, so it'll be Turko-Mongolic N-F4205. ("Genetic insights into the social organization of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin"). In that paper the elite Avars had a very high proportion of East Asian mtDNA even though it was several generations after their arrival. Maybe the elite was relatively endogamous, hence not having that high a genetic impact on the general population?

Apparently there was an Old Russian phrase "they perished like the Avars" meaning "vanished without a trace". Seems apt.

The Conqueror N was N-M2019 and N-Z1936(xL1034). The former has a subclade N-PH1612 containing 2 Hungarians on Y Full.
Hehe, I'm one of them ;)


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Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-Eas...30/photos/?tab=album&album_id=894613337290629
Why do you think K2/51(N1a1a1a1a4) was an Avar? The Avar N1a1a1 subclade is different from this one. This is typical for Hungarian Conquerors and is absent among the Avars as far as I know.

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Some things I find worth discussing considering this and the other studies about Huns and Hungarian conquerors:

1) Don't you find it a bit strange that these powerful peoples, mainly Huns and Avars, who apparently migrated en masse left such a tiny, almost nonexistant impact in the Y-DNA distribution of Eastern Europe, especially the Carpathian basin?

Did they though? At least in aDNA terms the impact of whoever brought East Asian admixture is kind of visible.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme
 
Y markers from Neparáczki at al
European Hun markers : R1b u106 is Germanic, Q1a is Xiongnu, R1a Z 2124 is Scythian, L is Indian Hun (not by Neparáczki)
Early Avar markers: more than 50% Siberian n1a1a's subclades, c2 east asian, g2a caucasian, I1 skandinavian, 2 R1a z2124 Scythian
middle avar period: N1a1a and subclade is siberian, E v13 is mediterranean-balkanic-middle eastern, c2 east asian
Hungarian period: Árpád dinasty R1a z2123 (srubneya scythian, bronze aged carpathian of Szólád) , R1a z2124 (2), Scythian, G2a2b neolitic caucasus, europe, E v13 (2) balkan, middle east, J1 (1) mmiddle east, Sarmatian, r1a cts1112 (5)corded ware, r1b u106 (4) germanic, r1b u152 celtic (1), r1b l23 (1) yamnaya, east afanasevo, xiongnu, I2a1a2b cucuteni, baden (6), j2a1a middle eastern (1), n1a m2002 siberian (2), n1a z1936 finnic (3), I1 skandi (1), q1a (okunevo, xiongnu)
the common hun, avar, magyar marker : r1a z2124 scythian(srubna, sintastha)
 

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