Huns, were they turkic, asian or indo european ?

Nobody1 said:
Cimmerians and Scythians are mentioned in Urartu during Sargon II [722-705 BC], not earlier
And Scythians are mentioned in Medes during the Siege of Nineveh [Cyaxares] 616 BC, not earlier.

So, the Netherlands found new inscriptions that confirm an earlier presence of Scythians and Cimmerians in the Near East. You sure proved me wrong with all those new overwhelming facts of yours
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Cimmerians, Scythians and the Medes were all mentioned almost at the same time. And the region where Cimmerians, Scythians and the Medes existed was south of the Caspian Sea. The Medes were Iranic speakers. I'm not sure about Cimmerians. And Iranic language is NOT from Ukraine. In that region native folks spoke/speak SLAVIC not IRANIC!!!!
 
at Gaga

Im not really sure what you are trying to convince me of, but inform yourself of: Indo-Europeans [Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan], Urheimat- Pontic-Caspian steppes/Kurgan I-II-III/and most of all, of a certain time-line.

Genetics

Im aware of what the current Y-DNA make up of modern-day Germany is.
Maybe you should inform yurself abut Spread of R1b [poss. Neolithic/spread: Bell Beaker Chalcolithic] and R1a [Corded ware/poss. also Neolithic]
R1a - Eulau: Haak 2008
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long
R1b - Busby 2011
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full
(any questions, just ask)

It is therefor poss. that R1b and R1a are both Pre-Indo-European as well as Indo-European since both Haplogroups are present in the complete range from Europe to Asia via Iranian Plateau. Hg I is present in 3 distinct european pockest: Sardinia / NW Balkans / Scandinavia. Seemingly def. Pre-Indo-European, but Archaeology and Anthropology confirm [based skeletal remains] that the Indo-Europeans and the Pre-Indo-European (both of the Caucasoid sub-races) MIXED in Europe (as well as Iranian Plateau/Anatolia and Indus Valley with the pre-existing (Elamites/Pelasgians/Dravidians) populations there).

Gaga's excurse into ancient History

what exactly is it that you are trying to convince me of? Is this another trip down your personal la la land of semitic Medes and proto-slavic Ukrainians of the 8th cen. BC?
In posts before i wrote [Historically/Archaeologically/Anthropologically attested] of a FIRST wave of Indo-European migration/Invasion [Hittites (1800 BC) & Indo-Aryans] via caucasus - via Central Asia and Iranian Plateau (Indus Valley 1500 BC). And a SECOND wave Indo-European migration Cimmerians, Scythians etc. in the 8th cen. BC [Sennacherib letter / Homer / Herodotus]
Your quotes all confirm this. Just make an effort and try to understand them.
 
Don’t act like you don’t understand me. If you think that I don’t understand history just look at the mirror. The only fella that doesn’t understand history or lives in a fabricated history is not me but you.
What I’m trying to say is that it’s actually very much possible that original proto-Iranic tribes were actually form the Iranian Plateau and NOT from the steppes.
URHEIMAT of the proto-IRANIC peoples was the Iranian Plateau! The Iranic Medes were NOT from the steppes but simply a continuation of natives of Kurdistan.
In the European part of the Steppes native people NEVER spoke Germanic nor Iranic!
 
Goga said:
Don’t act like you don’t understand me. If you think that I don’t understand history just look at the mirror. The only fella that doesn’t understand history or lives in a fabricated history is not me but you.
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sure
Goga said:
What I’m trying to say is that it’s actually very much possible that original proto-Iranic tribes were actually form the Iranian Plateau and NOT from the steppes.
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No, thats false (Archaeology/Anthropology/Linguistics/Historical documents) are a clear contra to your assumptions and since your assumptions are based on your on wishful thinking and destorted interpretations, not much of a surprise.
Goga said:
In the European part of the Steppes native people NEVER spoke Germanic nor Iranic
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Wow, no kidding; who would have thought; guess thats why everybody except Gaga from the Netherlands is talking about the Proto-Indo-European concept (Linguistic/Archaeology) of the Kurgan complex Pontic-Caspian Steppes.

doubt you'll get it now, but I can only re-post from before
When we talk about Germanic people we talk about a first wave of Indo-Europeans [Kurgan III] of the Corded Ware Culture, and subsequent waves of Indo-Europeans during the Bronze Age [Unetice/Urnfield]; with a Germanic consciousness [Germani] only being established during Roman times.

In terms of linguistics (Germanic proper), look up Grimm's law.
 
Dude, what the hell are you talking about???

During the Roman times there was already a split between Celtic and Germanic groups.
The Romans spoke Vulgar Latin a language already evolved from Celto-Germanic group of Indo-European language family. The Romans didn’t invent the Germanic tribes, lol.

Before the so called Kurgan culture there was Maykop culture that heavily influenced the Yamna culture. And in turn Yamna culture influenced the cultures in the Eurasian steppes.

Also the oldest Kurgans are in Göbekli Tepe thousands of years older than Kurgans in the Steppes.
 
Nobody1 said:


Wow, no kidding; who would have thought; guess thats why everybody except Gaga from the Netherlands is talking about the Proto-Indo-European concept (Linguistic/Archaeology) of the Kurgan complex Pontic-Caspian Steppes.
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Goga usually tries to link ancient Aryans to Medes (the latter for him are supposedly ancestors of Kurds) and claim that modern Kurds are true descendants of Aryans. That's why he always vehemently opposes the Kurgan Theory etc.
 
Kardu said:
Goga usually tries to link ancient Aryans to Medes (the latter for him are supposedly ancestors of Kurds) and claim that modern Kurds are true descendants of Aryans. That's why he always vehemently opposes the Kurgan Theory etc.
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Nonsense... Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with Aryan groups which appeared thousands years later. Proto-Indo-Europeans didn’t speak Iranic, lol!
 
Goga said:
Nonsense... Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with Aryan groups which appeared thousands years later. Proto-Indo-Europeans didn’t speak Iranic, lol!
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Nothing to do? :) Who said Aryans/PIE spoke Iranic?
 
Kardu said:
Nothing to do? :) Who said Aryans/PIE spoke Iranic?
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Are you serious??

‘Iranian’ is a different term for ‘Aryan’.

There is a gap of thousands of years between folks that spoke a proto-Indo-Euroepan language and the folks that wrote the Gathas (in Iranic Avetsan) and Rigveda (in Vedic Sanscrit). Iranic Avestan and Vedic Sanscrit are practically the same.

PIE mixed with lots of other races for many thousands of years before they became Iranic/Aryan. Aryans evolved differently from other proto-Indo-Europeans. So PIEans have nothing to do with later Aryans ....
 
Also, Aryans were those who wrote Zoroastrian Gathas and Rigveda. And NOT savage proto-Slavic hunter-gatherers in Eastern Europe or something.
 
Nobody1 said:
at Gaga

Im not really sure what you are trying to convince me of, but inform yourself of: Indo-Europeans [Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan], Urheimat- Pontic-Caspian steppes/Kurgan I-II-III/and most of all, of a certain time-line.

Genetics

Im aware of what the current Y-DNA make up of modern-day Germany is.
Maybe you should inform yurself abut Spread of R1b [poss. Neolithic/spread: Bell Beaker Chalcolithic] and R1a [Corded ware/poss. also Neolithic]
R1a - Eulau: Haak 2008
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long
R1b - Busby 2011
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full
(any questions, just ask)

It is therefor poss. that R1b and R1a are both Pre-Indo-European as well as Indo-European since both Haplogroups are present in the complete range from Europe to Asia via Iranian Plateau. Hg I is present in 3 distinct european pockest: Sardinia / NW Balkans / Scandinavia. Seemingly def. Pre-Indo-European, but Archaeology and Anthropology confirm [based skeletal remains] that the Indo-Europeans and the Pre-Indo-European (both of the Caucasoid sub-races) MIXED in Europe (as well as Iranian Plateau/Anatolia and Indus Valley with the pre-existing (Elamites/Pelasgians/Dravidians) populations there).

Gaga's excurse into ancient History

what exactly is it that you are trying to convince me of? Is this another trip down your personal la la land of semitic Medes and proto-slavic Ukrainians of the 8th cen. BC?
In posts before i wrote [Historically/Archaeologically/Anthropologically attested] of a FIRST wave of Indo-European migration/Invasion [Hittites (1800 BC) & Indo-Aryans] via caucasus - via Central Asia and Iranian Plateau (Indus Valley 1500 BC). And a SECOND wave Indo-European migration Cimmerians, Scythians etc. in the 8th cen. BC [Sennacherib letter / Homer / Herodotus]
Your quotes all confirm this. Just make an effort and try to understand them.
Click to expand...

I agree to most,
but we miss 4 major things, except the linguistic theories

1) Varna culture
2) Gedrosian component
3) Leyla teppe archaiological founds
4) Tocharian are minor Asian IE language

can you explain the above 3?
or you just exclude them from your theories?
 
Goga said:
Are you serious??

‘Iranian’ is a different term for ‘Aryan’.

There is a gap of thousands of years between folks that spoke a proto-Indo-Euroepan language and the folks that wrote the Gathas (in Iranic Avetsan) and Rigveda (in Vedic Sanscrit). Iranic Avestan and Vedic Sanscrit are practically the same.

PIE mixed with lots of other races for many thousands of years before they became Iranic/Aryan. Aryans evolved differently from other proto-Indo-Europeans. So PIEans have nothing to do with later Aryans ....
Click to expand...


Goga Understand it,

I am not going to repat it

Aryan is not Iranian

there many theoriesm but in all Aryan is not Indian

Indo-Hettit
Armenian
Greco-Aryan
etc

don't mess Indo-Iranian with Aryan,
in Aryan the king is Anaha (anahitta the queen)
in Indo-Iranian is Sach
etc etc.
 
Goga said:
Before the so called Kurgan culture there was Maykop culture that heavily influenced the Yamna culture. And in turn Yamna culture influenced the cultures in the Eurasian steppes. Also the oldest Kurgans are in Göbekli Tepe thousands of years older than Kurgans in the Steppes.
Click to expand...


I think that you are now reaching spheres that are beyond - good and evil.
Seriously, inform yourself about The Kurgan Culture Complex [Kurgan I - Kurgan II - Kurgan III -(Kurgan IV)]
(ps. Maikop is Kurgan II-III and Yamna Kurgan IV).
Göbekli Tepe has nothing to do with the Kurgan Cult. Com., i have already wrote in a diff. thread about it,

I consider Gobekli Tepe to be just as interesting and mysterious as most other sites of the Fertile Crescent,
Interesting of course, because it was a Pre-Neolithic (hunter gatherer) religious site/settlement (transitioning to Neolithic agriculture) and mysterious in terms that it was, like Catal Huyuk or the Mureybet settlements simply abandoned.
Also the fact that Gobekli Tepe was Pre-Semitic as well as Pre-Indo-European, makes it interesting in connection with the the equally Non Semitic Sumerians and the Non Semitic (Pre-Indo-European) Hatti.

Goga said:
During the Roman times there was already a split between Celtic and Germanic groups.
The Romans spoke Vulgar Latin a language already evolved from Celto-Germanic group of Indo-European language family. The Romans didn’t invent the Germanic tribes, lol.
Click to expand...

I never claimed that but thanks for sharing your pathetic conclusions.
Since you have no clue about the Indo-European complex (Proto-Urheimat-Kurgan-Migrations-Cultures-Linguistics-Anthropology) its nothing but a waste of time to talk about "tribal/social" consciousness within the Indo-Europeans of Europe.
PS: do you even know what Germani means?
 
Yetos said:
I agree to most,
but we miss 4 major things, except the linguistic theories

1) Varna culture
2) Gedrosian component
3) Leyla teppe archaiological founds
4) Tocharian are minor Asian IE language

can you explain the above 3?
or you just exclude them from your theories?
Click to expand...

1) Varna (Karanovo VI) is Pre-Indo-European with extensive contacts to Kurgan I. Look it up.
2) dont get your problem concerning the Gedrosian component. It actually links Europe and Asia via Iranian Plateau just like the Indo-European migration and Hg R1a, R1b. Thats not a theory thats an observation.
3) Leyla-Teepe are you referring to the Maikop link? Again Maikop is Kurgan II-III, and in case you didnt notice im the dude that is in favour of the Continual Migrations/Waves.
4) Tocharian, i think you can figure that out on your own.

Dont really understand you problems, or why you think these prove a contradiction to the Urheimat-Kurgan complex. But than im not sure what your Historical understanding is.

And thanks for calling it my theory, i would love to have all the recognition and awards that went along to all the Scientists (Linguists/Anthropologists/Archaeologists/Historians) that established this complex.
 
Goga, I've been shouting about the importance of Gobekli Tepe probably louder than anyone else on this site, and I have no idea how you can link it to GT to Kurgan. Can you site your proof? I don't think ANYONE knows enough about Gobekli Tepe to start attaching specific tribes or y-haplogroups to it.

I have my own bizarre theories on what group (actually groups) built it and why they buried it a few thousand years later... but I'm not foolish to try and pass my personal thoughts off as fact.
 
nordicwarbler said:
Goga, I've been shouting about the importance of Gobekli Tepe probably louder than anyone else on this site, and I have no idea how you can link it to GT to Kurgan. Can you site your proof? I don't think ANYONE knows enough about Gobekli Tepe to start attaching specific tribes or y-haplogroups to it.

I have my own bizarre theories on what group (actually groups) built it and why they buried it a few thousand years later... but I'm not foolish to try and pass my personal thoughts off as fact.
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I dont think they buried it, overtime buildings and structures erode and sink into the ground, same thing happened with Babylon, the Sphinx, Skara Brae, and many other Neolithic ruins. Same goes for remains, this is just part of a natural process. Regarding Gobekli Tepe itself, I propose you start a thread on the topic NW, and propose a question about its significance, and your own thoughts on it, definetly be an interesting discussion.

EDIT: It appears I was to quick to correct you in my first statement, you are right NW, it was buried on purpose. This is extremely interesting, this adds a whole neww perspective on the site FOR ME. Thanks for the info NW. Now I think its even more important that you start a thread on this.
 
Yes it was buried on purpose.

I'm going to hold off on my full theories on this subject. They will led to discussions that are rather charged to say the least.

Plus Gobekli Tepe has already flustered the camp that says Sumer was the first settled, organized culture, so this ancient site has already caused a stir in certain circles.
 
LeBrok said:
Could you do an effort and find this historical fact for us, or emphasise the fact that it is only a folk story from Albania.
Regardless, you are claiming that minority cannot change language of a country. How come you claim here that few thousands prostitutes (unless Rome expelled few millions of them!?) could impose Roman language over other population? Just make your mind, and be consistent in your views.
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If you know any historian of antiquity you may ask them about the truth of historical fact I just mentioned. I have heard the story, I found it funny and it stuck in my mind. We Albanians do not harbour hard feelings about Romanians, since we have not had any unpleasant history with them, so I could make up the story. But keep in mind Romania of antiquity was not 20 mil people as it is today. It could have been Half a milion in total. So 50 000 deported women are a big deal. So they formed the core of that group that gradually grew in number to present day population. Because if you beleive that few elite people could change the language, the question come why Britain did not change it, why not Greece, Albania that were even close than Romania, why not Egypt, Algeria etc,, that also were part of the Empire. I am not saying that minority can not influence it, I am sayng is it could not comlitely change it.
 
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