I-CTS10228 Dinaric subclades and distribution


I am talking about S17250, not sure that other subclades show correlation with Prague-Korchak horizon. I cannot be sure if all S17250 can be linked only to this culture, maybe some subclades entered Penkovka or Sukow-Dziedzice culture.

This means that subclade S17250 is a link between all these 50 medieval Slavic tribes. The only historical data that this mutation proves is De administrando imperio which talks about migration of Croats to the Balkans.

It means that White Croatia and Croats are the source of S17250 and that all these 50 medieval Slavic tribes has partially White Croatian origin.

Historical sources from the coastal towns see Vlach and make the difference between them Serbs and Croats.

But other historical sources do not see Vlachs.

One Italian historical source in the continental part of Dalmatia sees Vlachs but on the islands of Dalmatia it does not see Vlachs although these islands are inhabited from continental part of Dalmatia.

This means that he made conclusions based on folk costumes and customs and it is his view of this Croatians.

You are forgetting that Porfirogenit mentioned Croats, Serbs, Zahumlyanians, Travunians and Konavlians in one chapter as separate tribes,

Yes, it is interesting that leader of Zahumlyanians coming from Visla in Poland and Porphyrogenitus says that they are Serbians, but there is no Serbians around Visla (Serbs are at the border with Francia). However Serbs come to Eastern Dalmatia over Greece, such genetics in Croatia and Bosnia does not exist.

In addition to this a historian Moses from Horena, who lived close to that time, wrote that 25 Slavic tribes, which lived to Dacia, moved to Greece and Dalmatia.

For now I do not see genetics that prove this?

Then came Vlach (an exonym for shepherd groups) from late medieval time, and according to some theories they migrated from the Central Balkan to Bosnia and Dinaric Alps.

This means that PH908 is coming from central Balkans to Croatia? If you have proof for this show me.

You can find the same HGs not only PH908 widespread from Slovenia to Black Sea, and from Aegean to North Carpathians.

But still their source is one person(I-S17250)in White Croatia or White Croats.

Some not Slavic tribes could also brought I-CTS10228 e.g Goths, Huns, Avars, Bulgarians, like it was found in Medieval Hungarian graves.

Yes they could, but I-CTS10228 it's a grandfather of I-S17250, so these migrations probably start from the same house (White Croatia),I know it's a little strange but that's what genes say, not me. Of course for now.

So I think it is pointless to argue about Y-dna of Croats or Serbs without Ancient DNA results. It might happen that most of South Slavic tribes had similar mix of Y-dna.

I agree, we wait this data. However, today's genetics of peoples from "Roman Dalmatia" clearly confirm historical records of Croatian arrival, and for now we have to respect this.
 
Yes, it is interesting that leader of Zahumlyanians coming from Visla in Poland and Porphyrogenitus says that they are Serbians, but there is no Serbians around Visla (Serbs are at the border with Francia).

Please don't spread false information "Constantine Porphyrogenitus, notes that Michael was a son of Busebutze (Greek: Bouseboutzis > Visevitz),[4][12] but does not mention his family did descend from the "unbaptized Serbs" or was of Serbian origin.[8][12] According to Constantine, or even Michael himself according to the way the subchapter was structured,[12] his family belonged to the Litziki (Λιτζίκη), an unbaptized people on the river Vistula from the south Poland.[4][13][12]"
 
Aren’t this examples of a recent expansion of shepherd tribes?

Perhaps, but the more important issue is we should not consider and designate these populations of only "Slav", "Vlach" etc. identity. Both broad groups (migrant and native) from the beginning were more or less heterogeneous, and they intermixed, hence depending on a Balkan region should be instead perceived let's say mixed Albanian-Vlachian identity group, Vlachian-Slavic identity group and so on. Such a geographically broad perception is more realistic, especially for individual haplogroup subbranches, because most probably a specific SNP I-S17250 i.e. I-PH908 was widespread (with diverse percentage) throughout Eastern Europe, including Carpathian Basin. These mountains connect very well to the Dinaric Alps and there probably was a broad population which lived a similar shepherd lifestyle, which in the end concluded with the complex mixing between Vlachian and Slavic lifestyle and identity. As such some branches probably arrived before the Slavic migration, some during early or later Slavic migration, with diverse Slavic tribes, and of course, from different (Western, Northern, Eastern) direction.

Anyway, if someone has a good map of “Croat” toponyms (or just a list) in Slovenia, Austria, CZ, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece etc. it would be nice to post it on the Forum.

Well, a list can be found on English Wikipedia (see Name of Croatia and White Croats). As for a map, take into consideration the maps you uploaded because I will write an extensive reply which, for now, connects very well with them.
 
This is a synthesis of up-to-now multidisciplinary scientific studies of the Slavic migration, specifically Croats and Serbs, to the Western Balkan. It is based around a map (with explanation below) which I made and in which creation tried to take into account reliable and sourced modern scientific arguments, conclusions, and evidence. Decided to do it because all the maps I saw until now were not made very well. It is a map of a territory for which is considered, by historical sources and scientific research, to be inhabited and/or controlled by White Croats - from East to West - Carpathian, Polish, and Czech tribes of the White Croats. In its boundary, it could reflect the, probably mythical, White or Old/Great Croatia mentioned by Constantine VII in DAI.

Map:

The original interactive map

Photo of the map

Explanation:

Anthropology - in blue color are designated points of skeletal/cranial excavation sites which were researched by craniometric methods. As a reference was used work by Dr. M. Šlaus "Craniometric relationships of medieval Central European populations: Implications for Croat ethnogenesis" (1998) i "Kraniometrijska analiza srednjovjekovnih nalazišta središnje Europe: Novi dokazi o ekspanziji hrvatskih populacija tijekom 10.do 13. stoljeća" (2000). According to it, Old Croatian sites from Dalmatia (Nin, Danilo, Mravnice, Bribir) and two (Bugojno, Gomjanica) from Bosnia and Herzegovina, belong to the cluster with Old Polish sites (Cedynia, Wišlica, Lednicki), from which on a diagram Nin and Cedynia in parameters are basically identical. However, on the map is taken Lednicki as the starting point of the migration because it is most Southern Polish site, and because in the second paper is considered the direct route through sites Nitra-Lupka -> Zalaszabar-Dezsosziget -> Nin-Ždrijac. It opens the questions, which were the reasons for this, and not some other more Western (or Eastern) route of migration? In the territory of Western Balkan, the population from the narrow littoral core expanded to the North, initially into Bosnia and Herzegovina by the 10th century, and then into Zagorje (Northern Croatia) and Slavonija (Eastern Croatia) after 11th century, as according to research the initial skeletal remains of the Northern and Eastern Croatia do not belong to the Polish-Old Croatian cluster, but so-called Avaro-Slav cluster (roughly cluster of Slavic sites West/East of Danube). According to "Cultural inter-population differences do not reflect biological distances: an example of interdisciplinary analysis of populations from Eastern Adriatic coast" (2015), medieval skeletal remains of Šopot and Ostrovica (also from Northern Dalmatia) also belonged to the Polish-Old Croatian cluster, concluding that "As previously shown (6), all the sites were in vicinity to Polish sites and were separated from the other analyzed sites. PCA showed that all Eastern Adriatic coast sites were closely related in cranial morphology, and thus, most likely had similar biological makeup".

Historiography - in red color are designated boundaries of the territory on which presumably lived White Croatian tribes. Some parts on the map were intentionally not connected to make them separate and distinctive region according to country (Ukraine, Poland, Czech Republic), but can be easily seen were would be connected. According to the relatively common consideration by historians and archaeologists (Sedov 1995, Budak 2018), the Croatian tribes migrated from the East to the West and so they initially lived in the territory of Western Ukraine specifically Prykarpattia and Zakarpattia. Here were noted several gords which are mentioned by Korčinskij (2000, 2006) and Magocsi (2002), like Stiljsko, Zhydachiv, Halych, Krylos, Uzhhorod. To the East is dotted gord Terebovlya in the region of Podolia, while to the West is dotted toponym Chorvaty in Slovakia (earliest mention since the 13th century). In the territory of Lesser Poland, as the Eastern point is designated gord Przemysl, and boundaries are based on a detailed description by Kupchyns'ski (went from Prykarpattia; cited by Korčinskij 2006). To the West is dotted toponym Charvaty in Moravia (earliest mention since the 13th century). The territory of the Czech boundary around the upper part of river Elbe is basically identical (a bit unsure about it which looks like a letter "V") to the one found in the book by Sedov (1995), and there is also designated gord Libice where lived the Slavnik dynasty, by some scholars considered as of White Croatian origin. To the West are dotted toponyms Großkorbetha and
Korbetha (earliest mention since the 9th-10th century) located West of Leipzig in Germany. As an additional mention; the Arabian sources in the 10th century recorded a country-city "Hurdab/ʒ(h)-rāwat" near river Prut in Ukraine, saying that there live the rulers, which archaeologists speculated to be Stiljsko because it is of incredible proportions (250 ha, gord itself 15 ha), but also that ruler Svatopluk (referring to the Svatopluk I of Moravia), lives in the city of "ʒ-r-wāb (Džervab > Hrwat)", which indicates a direct relation of the White Croats with two or at least one very important Slavic capital city. Perhaps, they were on the territory of the White Croats or they controlled them. Modern archaeologists consider that the White Croats (specifically referring to the Carpathian and Czech tribes) had the most advanced technology of fortification, and interestingly, besides the typical burial practices by other Slavs, they also created kurgans and tombstones. In conclusion, besides being geographically widespread (present among both Western and Eastern Slavs), technologically advanced, they had to be numerous because of war with Avars (both in the North and the South), Hungarians, Pechenegs, Franks, to be in the end defeated and assimilated by the Kievan Rus' (Ukrainians), Bohemia (Czechs), and Poland (where around Krakow persisted the "Bielochrovat" identity until the 20th century).

East of the last toponyms and Northeastern of Czech tribes, in yellow color, is dotted the boundary of the territory of Lusatia where live the Sorbs, sometimes called as the Lusatian Serbs. Historians through the centuries argued various things about them, Sorbs and so-called White Serbs as well White Serbia, expanding their boundaries outside the usual territory between the rivers Elbe and Saale, but according to Sedov (1995), there's no archaeological evidence for such a hypothesis and the most probable is the conclusion by L. Niederle that there's no evidence for the existence of so-called White Serbia because Constantine VII made it up by analogy with White Croatia.

Archaeology - White Croats mainly lived in the territory of the Prague-Korchak culture, usually related to the Slavic group called Sclaveni, and in Ukraine had a transition from the (Prague-)Penkovka culture (and the Luka-Rajkovecki culture, Marković 2014, Kuguljak/Tomenčuk 2017) usually related to the Slavic group called Antes from which allegedly emerged (Sedov 1995, Majorov 2012).

According to Sedov, Lusatian Sorbs would be a mixture of local Slavs of the Tornovo cultural group holders of the Sukow-Dziedzice culture and migrant Slavic holders of the so-called Rusyns cultural group (which lived for a period of time in the middle Danube area where got the middle Danube cultural elements) and partly Prague-Korchak culture, with a possible distant Antes origin. For this migrant group is speculated to the brought the Sorbian language and identity. However, while the situation about the White Croats is more-or-less is obvious, there's too much speculation on the part of Sorbs, especially for the migrant group.

Population genetics - there are several points to make:

1) Genetic research on the contemporary population of the Sorbs and Serbs indicates an interruption of continuity of ethnogenesis between these two groups, although most probably very related ethnic identities, because among the first is predominantly (circa 65%) R1a with a negligible percent (circa 4%) of I2 according to 2015 research, while among the second is almost the opposite proportion of percentages, especially around the region of Herzegovina (nevertheless of the ethnic identity, Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak). It means that the contemporary population genetics as a scientific discipline cannot be used and it does not confirm the speculation (I-S17250 >) I-PH908+ subbranches came with the Serbian tribes to the Balkan or can be considered as a specifically Serbian genetic marker.*

2) It is hard to surely consider something at the moment, including about the distribution of specific haplogroup subbranches and their individual or collective route of migration during the Slavic migration, was it on the territory of Central-Eastern and/or Eastern Europe, also among probably heterogenous tribal groups such as White Croats and Sorbs (i.e. Serbs). However, while the Sorbs i.e. Serbs could have emigrated from only one direction and that's from the "Western" route from Lusatia in Germany, the White Croats could have emigrated from both "Western" (Bohemia), "Central" (Lesser Poland-Galicia), "Eastern" (Galicia-Western Ukraine), among both Western and Eastern Slavs, depending on the military-political situation of the Avar Khaganate.

3) The similar, South (I2) > North (R1a), inclination is also found in Dalmatia and Southwestern Bosnia and Herzegovina where was the nucleus of the Old Croatian excavations sites, basically of the political principality and later kingdom. In other words, where was the opposite inclination (Western, Northwestern and partly continental Croatia) the initial population did not even belong to the Polish-Old Croatian craniometric cluster, yet Avaro-Slav related to the Danube which makes more sense to have a predominance of R1a, and perhaps gives a clue to the predominance of R1a and scarcity of I2 among the contemporary Sorbs (note on the migrant group with Danube cultural elements which arguably brought the Sorbian language and identity).

4) * I-S17250 formed circa 2200 YBP (200 BCE), expanded circa 1800 YBP (200 CE) > I-PH908 formed circa 1800 YBP (200 CE), and suddenly expanded (?) within the same century (200-300 CE) making over 20 sub-branches. Something's strange about PH908. However, what does it mean? It means that at least, by the current age formation and TMRCA, the expansion by which is meant the formation of sub-branches (or subclades if you wish) has occurred before the start of the Slavic migration to the Balkan (6th-7th century), and so the whole theory about the expansion of PH908+ with shepherding tribes and Vlachs and so on becomes chronologically discredited very easily by a superficial look at YFull YTree.

 
Another Greek Y18331+ A2512- was found by FTDNA, making it two Greeks who have this basal branch. The MRCA of A2512 is estimated to have formed 2,200 years ago. Maybe now that time gets moved forward and Y18331 has the 2,200 year estimate? There is one ancestral A2512* Greek as well (with no subbranches).

The rest of the people in A2512 are downstream: Greeks, East European Jews, Chuvash and Latin Americans with likely Greek ancestry—still no Slavs in the branches.
 
Another Greek Y18331+ A2512- was found by FTDNA, making it two Greeks who have this basal branch. The MRCA of A2512 is estimated to have formed 2,200 years ago. Maybe now that time gets moved forward and Y18331 has the 2,200 year estimate? There is one ancestral A2512* Greek as well (with no subbranches).

The rest of the people in A2512 are downstream: Greeks, East European Jews, Chuvash and Latin Americans with likely Greek ancestry—still no Slavs in the branches.
2200 yrs ago is matching extremely well the migration of the Celts into Balkans.
I am not saying that Y18331+ A2512 is for sure Celtic, but this possibility can be also taken into account.
Usually is supposed that I2-din branches were either moved by Slavs or by fewer voices, by Thracians/Dacians.
I supposed in another thread, that some I2-din branches might have moved with Goths.
However, is known that Celts also migrated into Balkans and in Romania from somewhere more Eastwards.
They were migrating 2200 yrs ago or so.
So, there is very possible that some I2-din clades were moved by people that were assimilated by Celts and after,migrated with Celts Westwards.
No one knows if the Celts came from somewhere NE Europe or from E or from SE into Balkans and Romania.
If some Chuvash people got also this branch you found and some Latin Americans and some East European Jews, suddenly, Celts become a candidate of bearing this subclade.
Is weird how this subclade was not found in Iberia, but only in Latin Americans.....
 
Is weird how this subclade was not found in Iberia, but only in Latin Americans.....

The Latin Americans likely descend from a Greek ancestor or ancestors. There was someone named Juan Griego. The Chuvash men belong to the same family, from what I read/understood at the FTDNA blog.

I just tested Y60804- for an A10959 sub-branch. One A10959 branch is Greek-only so far, Y66912, under which is Y60804. I am waiting for my Y66192 result and expect to test positive for it. If it’s negative I might be A10959*, with no known sub-branches.
 
The Latin Americans likely descend from a Greek ancestor or ancestors. There was someone named Juan Griego. The Chuvash men belong to the same family, from what I read/understood at the FTDNA blog.

I just tested Y60804- for an A10959 sub-branch. One A10959 branch is Greek-only so far, Y66912, under which is Y60804. I am waiting for my Y66192 result and expect to test positive for it. If it’s negative I might be A10959*, with no known sub-branches.
No they don’t. imo
Because Griego (Greco, Del Greco, La Greca,...) It’s an Italian surname that originated in Tuscany.
It doesn’t necessarily mean that this person came from Greece, because it’s also a nickname for a crafty or guileful person, for these were qualities traditionally attributed to the Ancient Greeks.
 
No they don’t.
Because Griego (Greco, Del Greco, La Greca,...) It’s an Italian surname that originated in Tuscany.
It doesn’t necessarily mean that this person came from Greece, because it’s also a nickname for a crafty or guileful person, for these were qualities traditionally attributed to the Ancient Greeks.

Oh lol !
It means that this branch of I2 was either spread by Celts or by Goths.
Glad to see members from Eupedia that have such a vast knowledge.

Coming back to the Goths and Celts, I think history mentions that some Goths settled in Greece. Some Goths also settled in Italy.
As for Celts, did not searched too much, but was thinking that this branch of I2 got TMRCA of 2200 yrs before now, which is too early for Slavs and too early for Goths, also.
Also, another possibility is the people from Troy, which was proved to have existed but I do not know when the Trojan war took place.
After this Trojan war,according to the Greek legend some Trojans escaped to Italy.
If this branch is coming from Trojans, this would be really fascinating.
 
Oh lol ! It means that this branch of I2 was either spread by Celts or by Goths. Glad to see members from Eupedia that have such a vast knowledge. Coming back to the Goths and Celts, I think history mentions that some Goths settled in Greece. Some Goths also settled in Italy. As for Celts, did not searched too much, but was thinking that this branch of I2 got TMRCA of 2200 yrs before now, which is too early for Slavs and too early for Goths, also. Also, another possibility is the people from Troy, which was proved to have existed but I do not know when the Trojan war took place. After this Trojan war,according to the Greek legend some Trojans escaped to Italy. If this branch is coming from Trojans, this would be really fascinating.
Troyans arrived with Slavs from Ukraine and Belarus? Interesting...
 
Oh lol !
It means that this branch of I2 was either spread by Celts or by Goths.
Glad to see members from Eupedia that have such a vast knowledge.

Coming back to the Goths and Celts, I think history mentions that some Goths settled in Greece. Some Goths also settled in Italy.
As for Celts, did not searched too much, but was thinking that this branch of I2 got TMRCA of 2200 yrs before now, which is too early for Slavs and too early for Goths, also.
Also, another possibility is the people from Troy, which was proved to have existed but I do not know when the Trojan war took place.
After this Trojan war,according to the Greek legend some Trojans escaped to Italy.
If this branch is coming from Trojans, this would be really fascinating.
I2-CTS10228 is espesially common in areas settled by Goths and Celts, such as Italy and Western Europe. :LOL:
 
I2-CTS10228 is espesially common in areas settled by Goths and Celts, such as Italy and Western Europe. :LOL:

Its really not though. It could just as easily be attributed to the later Slavs who were also mercenaries in Spain during Moorish rule, and in Sicily by one of the eastern empires. Also the branch that this italian belongs to with Ralphie is the oldest cluster so far, and no South-Slavs belong to it yet other than East European Jews and Greeks. Given the TMRCA of 200BC and the Bastarnae who were hired by King Phillip and brought to Macedonia, in his case this is probably its means of arrival.
 
Its really not though. It could just as easily be attributed to the later Slavs who were also mercenaries in Spain during Moorish rule, and in Sicily by one of the eastern empires. Also the branch that this italian belongs to with Ralphie is the oldest cluster so far, and no South-Slavs belong to it yet other than East European Jews and Greeks. Given the TMRCA of 200BC and the Bastarnae who were hired by King Phillip and brought to Macedonia, in his case this is probably its means of arrival.

Yes, Greeco-Jewish A10959 is probably only branch of CTS10228 that can not be associated with Slavic expansion.
 
We tend to think of Slavic invasions from the north when it comes to Greeks, but with the small amount of Steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans that was found so far, it looks like the north was coming in at a much earlier time. Northern people could have come to Greece and settled in Hellenistic/Roman/Byzantine times before the Slavs, but probably in nowhere near the same numbers. My ancestor could have come from the north in one of the earlier settlements or invasions.

Juan Griego was said to be Greek by one of FTDNA’s administrators in an I2a blog post—a man who went to the New World with the Spanish in 1538. Plus, doesn’t Griego mean Greek in Spanish?
 
We tend to think of Slavic invasions from the north when it comes to Greeks, but with the small amount of Steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans that was found so far, it looks like the north was coming in at a much earlier time. Northern people could have come to Greece and settled in Hellenistic/Roman/Byzantine times before the Slavs, but probably not in the same numbers as Slavs. Among one of these could have been my ancestor.

Juan Griego was said to be Greek by one of FTDNA’s administrators in an I2a blog post—a man who went to the New World with the Spanish in 1538. Plus, doesn’t Griego mean Greek in Spanish?

Ok, but what does mean Griego (Greek) in 1538?
 
I was talking about this specific subclade of I2-din which surely did not moved with Slavic speakers migration from 600 AD:
The Latin Americans likely descend from a Greek ancestor or ancestors. There was someone named Juan Griego. The Chuvash men belong to the same family, from what I read/understood at the FTDNA blog.

I just tested Y60804- for an A10959 sub-branch. One A10959 branch is Greek-only so far, Y66912, under which is Y60804. I am waiting for my Y66192 result and expect to test positive for it. If it’s negative I might be A10959*, with no known sub-branches.
And yes is most possible that it moved with Celtic migration.
Some Celts remained in Romania, some settled in Balkans and Greece, some migrated Westward and settled in Italy, some moved even more Westward and settled in Spain.
It either moved with the Celtic migration or it belongs to the Trojan people.

Now about Trojan people, there is not much known about them but a thing is certain:
In Romania at Sarmisegetusa, a Dacian city, was found a color mosaic depicting some scene of the Trojan war.
This confirms the most common theory about the Trojans, that they were some kind of Thracians.
So a new theory could come:
Thracians bearing also I2-din migrated North fearing the Greek warriors, after the Trojan war and established there.
Later, Goths came and and these Thracians allied to Goths went to fight the Greeks and Roman Empire.
Later Thracians mingled with protoSlavs and formed the Slavs as we know now.
The Slavs went to take back their land from the Greeks and Romans.
A weird fact is that in Ukrainian highlanders from North Moldavia and Ukraine there is found some E-V13 specific branch.
 
Bonjour a l origine les serbes et les croates sont de culture bulgar, c est a dire des scythes
 
Does I-A10959 originate from Slavs?

Hello, I am new here but have been interested in genetics for a few years.

I'm hoping to learn more about my haplogroup which descends from I-A10959, and comes from Tripolis, Greece. From what I've seen it seems to have arrived in Greece with the Medieval Slavic migrations, but I've also seen other theories. Can anyone offer anymore insight? Very interested to learn more. Thanks.
 

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